• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD Struggles to Be Excluded from Unwarranted Intel VT Flaw Kernel Patches

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,143 (6.63/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,847 (0.81/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
OMG IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!11111111oneoneone

No, it's not. There is no guarantee that AMD CPUs are immune to this flaw, other than a claim from an AMD employee. That points to one of two scenarios:

a) Linux kernel devs have done their own testing and determined that AMD CPUs are, in fact, vulnerable (perhaps not in the same way as Intel's)
b) Linux kernel devs are simply being paranoid/prudent considering the severity of this issue, and will disable PTI for AMD CPUs in a subsequent release once they're certain AMD's chips are not vulnerable

There are literally zero valid reasons for anyone doing Linux kernel development to penalise AMD/prefer Intel; it would destroy their reputation. Similarly, if Intel was leaning on the kernel devs to do this, it would hurt their reputation.

Intel has been trying to hide these flaws for 10+years now.

Seriously? Where is your goddamn proof? You're shitposting in this thread like it's going out of style, claiming everyone and their mother are Intel fanboys, yet it's you who's throwing unverified accusations around like confetti.

Adults are talking. Sit down, and be quiet.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
9,436 (3.28/day)
System Name Good enough
Processor AMD Ryzen R9 7900 - Alphacool Eisblock XPX Aurora Edge
Motherboard ASRock B650 Pro RS
Cooling 2x 360mm NexXxoS ST30 X-Flow, 1x 360mm NexXxoS ST30, 1x 240mm NexXxoS ST30
Memory 32GB - FURY Beast RGB 5600 Mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire RX 7900 XT - Alphacool Eisblock Aurora
Storage 1x Kingston KC3000 1TB 1x Kingston A2000 1TB, 1x Samsung 850 EVO 250GB , 1x Samsung 860 EVO 500GB
Display(s) LG UltraGear 32GN650-B + 4K Samsung TV
Case Phanteks NV7
Power Supply GPS-750C
OMG IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!11111111oneoneone

No, it's not. There is no guarantee that AMD CPUs are immune to this flaw, other than a claim from an AMD employee. That points to one of two scenarios:

a) Linux kernel devs have done their own testing and determined that AMD CPUs are, in fact, vulnerable (perhaps not in the same way as Intel's)
b) Linux kernel devs are simply being paranoid/prudent considering the severity of this issue, and will disable PTI for AMD CPUs in a subsequent release once they're certain AMD's chips are not vulnerable

There are literally zero valid reasons for anyone doing Linux kernel development to penalise AMD/prefer Intel; it would destroy their reputation. Similarly, if Intel was leaning on the kernel devs to do this, it would hurt their reputation.

Pure speculation.
 

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,143 (6.63/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
OMG IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!11111111oneoneone

No, it's not. There is no guarantee that AMD CPUs are immune to this flaw, other than a claim from an AMD employee. That points to one of two scenarios:

a) Linux kernel devs have done their own testing and determined that AMD CPUs are, in fact, vulnerable (perhaps not in the same way as Intel's)
b) Linux kernel devs are simply being paranoid/prudent considering the severity of this issue, and will disable PTI for AMD CPUs in a subsequent release once they're certain AMD's chips are not vulnerable

There are literally zero valid reasons for anyone doing Linux kernel development to penalise AMD/prefer Intel; it would destroy their reputation. Similarly, if Intel was leaning on the kernel devs to do this, it would hurt their reputation.



Seriously? Where is your goddamn proof? You're shitposting in this thread like it's going out of style, claiming everyone and their mother are Intel fanboys, yet it's you who's throwing unverified accusations around like confetti.

Adults are talking. Sit down, and be quiet.

If you would read several links throughout tpu relating to this issue you will see such. By the way I never said anyone was a fanboy, you did. You can't stand the fact Intel was caught in a lie and now the truth of their lies and corruption is coming out now.
So you need to get your fingers off the keyboard and let the adults discuss here instead of you trying to attack members with your baseless and stupid comments.

The reason you don't like what I write is because you can't see the light of truth.
BY THE WAY I'M SORRY MY COMMENTS IRRITATE YOU SO MUCH @Assimilator!
...NOT! DON'T LIKE ME PUT ME ON IGNORE!


By the way welcome to the ignore list
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,847 (0.81/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
Pure speculation.

As are the conspiracy theories in this thread. My speculation, however, is founded on knowledge of computer hardware and security best practices, as opposed to "INTEL IS TEH EVIL".

Your move.

If you would read several links throughout tpu relating to this issue you will see such, so you need to get your fingers off the keyboard and let the adults discuss here instead of you trying to attack members with your baseless and stupid comments.

BY THE WAY I'M SORRY MY COMMENTS IRRITATE YOU SO MUCH @Assimilator!
...NOT! DON'T LIKE ME PUT ME ON IGNORE!


By the way welcome to the ignore list

Remind me, which one of us is making the hysterical claim that "Intel has been trying to hide these flaws for 10+years now", and therefore has the responsibility to provide proof to substantiate said claim?

Oh right, it's you.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
454 (0.13/day)
System Name Marmo / Kanon
Processor Intel Core i7 9700K / AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
Motherboard Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro WiFi / X570S Aorus Pro AX
Cooling Noctua NH-U12S x 2
Memory Corsair Vengeance 32GB 2666-C16 / 32GB 3200-C16
Video Card(s) KFA2 RTX3070 Ti / Asus TUF RX 6800XT OC
Storage Samsung 970 EVO+ 1TB, 860 EVO 1TB / Samsung 970 Pro 1TB, 970 EVO+ 1TB
Display(s) Dell AW2521HFA / U2715H
Case Fractal Design Focus G / Pop Air RGB
Audio Device(s) Onboard / Creative SB ZxR
Power Supply SeaSonic Focus GX 650W / PX 750W
Mouse Logitech MX310 / G1
Keyboard Logitech G413 / G513
Software Win 11 Ent
nix kernels are open source. I wonder why AMD don't just compile and release their own replacement kernel if their requests have been ignored by those kernel developers.

Do Windows kernels have the same patch? If so, I will make sure my home 2012 R2 server running hyper-v do not apply for the update.
 
Last edited:

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,143 (6.63/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
As are the conspiracy theories in this thread. My speculation, however, is founded on knowledge of computer hardware and security best practices, as opposed to "INTEL IS TEH EVIL".

Your move.



Remind me, which one of us is making the hysterical claim that "Intel has been trying to hide these flaws for 10+years now", and therefore has the responsibility to provide proof to substantiate said claim?

Oh right, it's you.

The proof is in the pudding buttercup, do the search in tpu and it shall be revealed to you. By the way don't like me put me on ignore snowflake
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,847 (0.81/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
nix kernels are open source. I wonder why AMD don't just compile and release their own replacement kernel if their requests have been ignored by those kernel developers.

That would be a major PITA since they would have to maintain a kernel build for every version of every distro. And most people who don't want to mess around with compiling their own kernel, also probably don't want to mess around getting kernel binaries from non-official distro sources. Much easier to just boot your kernel with the -nopti flag if you are running AMD/really don't want PTI enabled.

On the flipside, the majority of people and companies that actually care enough about PTI's performance impact to want it disabled, are probably already building their kernels from source - so they'll just turn it off at compile time.
 

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,143 (6.63/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
nix kernels are open source. I wonder why AMD don't just compile and release their own replacement kernel if their requests have been ignored by those kernel developers.

Do Windows kernels have the same patch? If so, I will make sure my home 2012 R2 server running hyper-v do not apply for the update.

This will roll to Windows at some point. I would honestly put a safeguard up
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
3,537 (0.68/day)
Location
Netherlands
System Name ap201 | Odroid N2+ | NUC
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600 | Amlogic S922X | Intel Core i5-7260
Motherboard Gigabyte B550M DS3H |Odroid N2+ | NUC Board 7
Cooling Inter-Tech Argus SU-200, 3x Arctic P12 case fans | stock heatsink + fan | stock HSF
Memory Gskill Aegis DDR4 32GB | 4 GB DDR4 | 16 GB DDR4
Video Card(s) Sapphire Pulse RX 6600 (8GB) | Arm Mali G52 | Iris Plus 640
Storage SK Hynix 240GB, Sam. 840 + 850 EVO (2x (250 GB)| Samsung 850 Evo 500GB | WD Green 240 GB
Display(s) AOC G2260VWQ6 | LG 24MT57D |
Case Asus Prime 201 | Stock case (black version) | Stock case
Audio Device(s) integrated
Power Supply BeQuiet! Pure Power 11 400W | 12v barrel jack | 19V laptop brick (Asus)
Mouse Logitech G500 |Steelseries Rival 300 | no-name ergo mouse
Keyboard Qpad MK-50 (Cherry MX brown)| Blaze Keyboard
Software Windows 10, EndeavourOS | Gentoo Linux | EndeavourOS
nix kernels are open source. I wonder why AMD don't just compile and release their own replacement kernel if their requests have been ignored by those kernel developers.
Linux distributors possibly rather leave the patch enabled for all on X86(-64) until it is cleared up whether it's necessary (better safe than sorry). And Linux distributors get the kernel from the Linux Foundation, not from AMD/Intel.
The proof is in the pudding buttercup, do the search in tpu and it shall be revealed to you. By the way don't like me put me on ignore snowflake
Dude, take a breath. :)
 
Last edited:

eidairaman1

The Exiled Airman
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
42,143 (6.63/day)
Location
Republic of Texas (True Patriot)
System Name PCGOD
Processor AMD FX 8350@ 5.0GHz
Motherboard Asus TUF 990FX Sabertooth R2 2901 Bios
Cooling Scythe Ashura, 2×BitFenix 230mm Spectre Pro LED (Blue,Green), 2x BitFenix 140mm Spectre Pro LED
Memory 16 GB Gskill Ripjaws X 2133 (2400 OC, 10-10-12-20-20, 1T, 1.65V)
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 290 Sapphire Vapor-X
Storage Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, WD Velociraptor 1TB
Display(s) NEC Multisync LCD 1700V (Display Port Adapter)
Case AeroCool Xpredator Evil Blue Edition
Audio Device(s) Creative Labs Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Seasonic 1250 XM2 Series (XP3)
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD
Keyboard Roccat Ryos MK Pro
Software Windows 7 Pro 64
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
2,141 (0.53/day)
Location
Serbia
Processor Ryzen 5600
Motherboard X570 I Aorus Pro
Cooling Deepcool AG400
Memory HyperX Fury 2 x 8GB 3200 CL16
Video Card(s) RX 6700 10GB SWFT 309
Storage SX8200 Pro 512 / NV2 512
Display(s) 24G2U
Case NR200P
Power Supply Ion SFX 650
Mouse G703 (TTC Gold 60M)
Keyboard Keychron V1 (Akko Matcha Green) / Apex m500 (Gateron milky yellow)
Software W10
Don't have a doubt in my mind Intel pulled some underhanded move directly from "Intel's sleazy playbook of anti-consumerism". It's in their blood after all.
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
569 (0.12/day)
Processor i5 4670K - @ 4.8GHZ core
Motherboard MSI Z87 G43
Cooling Thermalright Ultra-120 *(Modded to fit on this motherboard)
Memory 16GB 2400MHZ
Video Card(s) HD7970 GHZ edition Sapphire
Storage Samsung 120GB 850 EVO & 4X 2TB HDD (Seagate)
Display(s) 42" Panasonice LED TV @120Hz
Case Corsair 200R
Audio Device(s) Xfi Xtreme Music with Hyper X Core
Power Supply Cooler Master 700 Watts
OMG IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!11111111oneoneone

No, it's not. There is no guarantee that AMD CPUs are immune to this flaw, other than a claim from an AMD employee. That points to one of two scenarios:

a) Linux kernel devs have done their own testing and determined that AMD CPUs are, in fact, vulnerable (perhaps not in the same way as Intel's)
b) Linux kernel devs are simply being paranoid/prudent considering the severity of this issue, and will disable PTI for AMD CPUs in a subsequent release once they're certain AMD's chips are not vulnerable
.

You need to keep quiet sometimes. (we know you hate AMD) The new patch is already out that excludes AMD CPUs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/7nr7dy/_/ds46kfe
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/7nqy3h/_/ds42kks
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
12,062 (2.62/day)
Location
Gypsyland, UK
System Name HP Omen 17
Processor i7 7700HQ
Memory 16GB 2400Mhz DDR4
Video Card(s) GTX 1060
Storage Samsung SM961 256GB + HGST 1TB
Display(s) 1080p IPS G-SYNC 75Hz
Audio Device(s) Bang & Olufsen
Power Supply 230W
Mouse Roccat Kone XTD+
Software Win 10 Pro
I'm handing out reply bans if you guys don't calm the hell down. You're adults. Act like it. Use the ignore functionality if a member makes you botty-bothered. I came back from the new year with over a hundred report alerts because people are dead set on acting like they have the mental capacity of a parsnip.

Things people forget about this forum:
1. This is the internet. Thick skin is required.
in contrast;
2. You are free to post whatever you want. You are not free of the consequences of those posts. I'm very much free to implement said consequences.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
19,371 (3.56/day)
Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
This... is bad for cloud and datcenters. However any decently planned cloud provider has mkre than ample headroom to absorb a 30% hit if it gets that high (not that it is ok...at all. Just saying it can be mitigated). I dont have my head completely wrapped around the issue, admitedly.

That will be the only thing i post on the subject at tpu. The maturity level in this forum, and what ive seen in this thread, hit an all time low. Every day it gets more difficult to have adult conversations with people at this forum... its like the kids table at the holidays. And the kids bave loudest voices drowning out a reasonable conversation. Pathetic. It all started with whoever posted that dumb shit about trolling and intel sympathizers...
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
454 (0.13/day)
System Name Marmo / Kanon
Processor Intel Core i7 9700K / AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
Motherboard Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro WiFi / X570S Aorus Pro AX
Cooling Noctua NH-U12S x 2
Memory Corsair Vengeance 32GB 2666-C16 / 32GB 3200-C16
Video Card(s) KFA2 RTX3070 Ti / Asus TUF RX 6800XT OC
Storage Samsung 970 EVO+ 1TB, 860 EVO 1TB / Samsung 970 Pro 1TB, 970 EVO+ 1TB
Display(s) Dell AW2521HFA / U2715H
Case Fractal Design Focus G / Pop Air RGB
Audio Device(s) Onboard / Creative SB ZxR
Power Supply SeaSonic Focus GX 650W / PX 750W
Mouse Logitech MX310 / G1
Keyboard Logitech G413 / G513
Software Win 11 Ent
That would be a major PITA since they would have to maintain a kernel build for every version of every distro. And most people who don't want to mess around with compiling their own kernel, also probably don't want to mess around getting kernel binaries from non-official distro sources. Much easier to just boot your kernel with the -nopti flag if you are running AMD/really don't want PTI enabled.

On the flipside, the majority of people and companies that actually care enough about PTI's performance impact to want it disabled, are probably already building their kernels from source - so they'll just turn it off at compile time.

Ah, so there is a boot flag to turn it off. Thank god. Now I don't have to worry about excluding the kernel update or compiling one myself on my Fedora desktop and CentOS home server.
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
7,528 (1.77/day)
More info ~ https://lwn.net/Articles/738975/
Since the beginning, Linux has mapped the kernel's memory into the address space of every running process. There are solid performance reasons for doing this, and the processor's memory-management unit can ordinarily be trusted to prevent user space from accessing that memory. More recently, though, some more subtle security issues related to this mapping have come to light, leading to the rapid development of a new patch set that ends this longstanding practice for the x86 architecture.

Some address-space history
On 32-bit systems, the address-space layout for a running process dedicated the bottom 3GB (0x00000000 to 0xbfffffff) for user-space use and the top 1GB (0xc0000000 to 0xffffffff) for the kernel. Each process saw its own memory in the bottom 3GB, while the kernel-space mapping was the same for all. On an x86_64 system, the user-space virtual address space goes from zero to 0x7fffffffffff (the bottom 47 bits), while kernel-space mappings are scattered in the range above 0xffff880000000000. While user space can, in some sense, see the address space reserved for the kernel, it has no actual access to that memory.

This mapping scheme has caused problems in the past. On 32-bit systems, it limits the total size of a process's address space to 3GB, for example. The kernel-side problems are arguably worse, in that the kernel can only directly access a bit less than 1GB of physical memory; using more memory than that required the implementation of a complicated "high memory" mechanism. 32-Bit systems were never going to be great at using large amounts of memory (for a 20th-century value of "large"), but keeping the kernel mapped into user space made things worse.

Nonetheless, this mechanism persists for a simple reason: getting rid of it would make the system run considerably slower. Keeping the kernel permanently mapped eliminates the need to flush the processor's translation lookaside buffer (TLB) when switching between user and kernel space, and it allows the TLB entries for kernel space to never be flushed. Flushing the TLB is an expensive operation for a couple of reasons: having to go to the page tables to repopulate the TLB hurts, but the act of performing the flush itself is slow enough that it can be the biggest part of the cost.

Back in 2003, Ingo Molnar implemented a different mechanism, where user space and kernel space each got a full 4GB address space and the processor would switch between them on every context switch. The "4G/4G" mechanism solved problems for some users and was shipped by some distributors, but the associated performance cost ensured that it never found its way into the mainline kernel. Nobody has seriously proposed separating the two address spaces since.

Rethinking the shared address space
On contemporary 64-bit systems, the shared address space does not constrain the amount of virtual memory that can be addressed as it used to, but there is another problem that is related to security. An important technique for hardening the system is kernel address-space layout randomization (KASLR), which randomizes the placement of the kernel in the virtual address space at boot time. By denying an attacker the knowledge of where the kernel lives in memory, KASLR makes many types of attack considerably more difficult. As long as the actual location of the kernel does not leak to user space, attackers will be left groping in the dark.

The problem is that this information leaks in many ways. Many of those leaks date back to simpler days when kernel addresses were not sensitive information; it even turns out that your editor introduced one such leak in 2003. Nobody was worried about exposing that information at that time. More recently, a concerted effort has been made to close off the direct leaks from the kernel, but none of that will be of much benefit if the hardware itself reveals the kernel's location. And that would appear to be exactly what is happening.

This paper from Daniel Gruss et al. [PDF] cites a number of hardware-based attacks on KASLR. They use techniques like exploiting timing differences in fault handling, observing the behavior of prefetch instructions, or forcing faults using the Intel TSX (transactional memory) instructions. There are rumors circulating that other such channels exist but have not yet been disclosed. In all of these cases, the processor responds differently to a memory access attempt depending on whether the target address is mapped in the page tables, regardless of whether the running process can actually access that location. These differences can be used to find where the kernel has been placed — without making the kernel aware that an attack is underway.

Fixing information leaks in the hardware is difficult and, in any case, deployed systems are likely to remain vulnerable. But there is a viable defense against these information leaks: making the kernel's page tables entirely inaccessible to user space. In other words, it would seem that the practice of mapping the kernel into user space needs to end in the interest of hardening the system.

KAISER
The paper linked above provided an implementation of separated address spaces for the x86-64 kernel; the authors called it "KAISER", which evidently stands for "kernel address isolation to have side-channels efficiently removed". This implementation was not suitable for inclusion into the mainline, but it was picked up and heavily modified by Dave Hansen. The resulting patch set (still called "KAISER") is in its third revision and seems likely to find its way upstream in a relatively short period of time.

Whereas current systems have a single set of page tables for each process, KAISER implements two. One set is essentially unchanged; it includes both kernel-space and user-space addresses, but it is only used when the system is running in kernel mode. The second "shadow" page table contains a copy of all of the user-space mappings, but leaves out the kernel side. Instead, there is a minimal set of kernel-space mappings that provides the information needed to handle system calls and interrupts, but no more. Copying the page tables may sound inefficient, but the copying only happens at the top level of the page-table hierarchy, so the bulk of that data is shared between the two copies.

Whenever a process is running in user mode, the shadow page tables will be active. The bulk of the kernel's address space will thus be completely hidden from the process, defeating the known hardware-based attacks. Whenever the system needs to switch to kernel mode, in response to a system call, an exception, or an interrupt, for example, a switch to the other page tables will be made. The code that manages the return to user space must then make the shadow page tables active again.

The defense provided by KAISER is not complete, in that a small amount of kernel information must still be present to manage the switch back to kernel mode. In the patch description, Hansen wrote:
The minimal kernel page tables try to map only what is needed to enter/exit the kernel such as the entry/exit functions, interrupt descriptors (IDT) and the kernel trampoline stacks. This minimal set of data can still reveal the kernel's ASLR base address. But, this minimal kernel data is all trusted, which makes it harder to exploit than data in the kernel direct map which contains loads of user-controlled data.

While the patch does not mention it, one could imagine that, if the presence of the remaining information turns out to give away the game, it could probably be located separately from the rest of the kernel at its own randomized address.

The performance concerns that drove the use of a single set of page tables have not gone away, of course. More recent processors offer some help, though, in the form of process-context identifiers (PCIDs). These identifiers tag entries in the TLB; lookups in the TLB will only succeed if the associated PCID matches that of the thread running in the processor at the time. Use of PCIDs eliminates the need to flush the TLB at context switches; that reduces the cost of switching page tables during system calls considerably. Happily, the kernel got support for PCIDs during the 4.14 development cycle.

Even so, there will be a performance penalty to pay when KAISER is in use:
KAISER will affect performance for anything that does system calls or interrupts: everything. Just the new instructions (CR3 manipulation) add a few hundred cycles to a syscall or interrupt. Most workloads that we have run show single-digit regressions. 5% is a good round number for what is typical. The worst we have seen is a roughly 30% regression on a loopback networking test that did a ton of syscalls and context switches.

Not that long ago, a security-related patch with that kind of performance penalty would not have even been considered for mainline inclusion. Times have changed, though, and most developers have realized that a hardened kernel is no longer optional. Even so, there will be options to enable or disable KAISER, perhaps even at run time, for those who are unwilling to take the performance hit.

All told, KAISER has the look of a patch set that has been put onto the fast track. It emerged nearly fully formed and has immediately seen a lot of attention from a number of core kernel developers. Linus Torvalds is clearly in support of the idea, though he naturally has pointed out a number of things that, in his opinion, could be improved. Nobody has talked publicly about time frames for merging this code, but 4.15 might not be entirely out of the question.
The most important part ~ This paper from Daniel Gruss et al. [PDF] cites a number of hardware-based attacks on KASLR. They use techniques like exploiting timing differences in fault handling, observing the behavior of prefetch instructions, or forcing faults using the Intel TSX (transactional memory) instructions. There are rumors circulating that other such channels exist but have not yet been disclosed. In all of these cases, the processor responds differently to a memory access attempt depending on whether the target address is mapped in the page tables, regardless of whether the running process can actually access that location. These differences can be used to find where the kernel has been placed — without making the kernel aware that an attack is underway.

So if the rumors are true then there's possibly exploits in the wild as well:banghead:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
9,436 (3.28/day)
System Name Good enough
Processor AMD Ryzen R9 7900 - Alphacool Eisblock XPX Aurora Edge
Motherboard ASRock B650 Pro RS
Cooling 2x 360mm NexXxoS ST30 X-Flow, 1x 360mm NexXxoS ST30, 1x 240mm NexXxoS ST30
Memory 32GB - FURY Beast RGB 5600 Mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire RX 7900 XT - Alphacool Eisblock Aurora
Storage 1x Kingston KC3000 1TB 1x Kingston A2000 1TB, 1x Samsung 850 EVO 250GB , 1x Samsung 860 EVO 500GB
Display(s) LG UltraGear 32GN650-B + 4K Samsung TV
Case Phanteks NV7
Power Supply GPS-750C
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
344 (0.13/day)
What about VIA? Nobody said they are vulnerable, but still suffer the impact from workaround-fix.
The patch should look more like "if (intel) then apply fix", rather than "if (not amd) then apply fix".
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
19,371 (3.56/day)
Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Just report the posts instead of replying amd exacerbating the problem...

See what i mean? A self fulfilling prophecy of barbs allowed to continue after ' a hundred reports'.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.21/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
What about VIA? Nobody said they are vulnerable, but still suffer the impact from workaround-fix.
The patch should look more like "if (intel) then apply fix", rather than "if (not amd) then apply fix".
A question worth asking:) what of qualcom too and the arm derivatives are they to be penalised for intels shoddy workmanship.
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Messages
2,198 (0.43/day)
What about VIA? Nobody said they are vulnerable, but still suffer the impact from workaround-fix.
The patch should look more like "if (intel) then apply fix", rather than "if (not amd) then apply fix".

I dont think there are DC's working with VIA CPU's in general. VIA offers low performance / lower power CPU's with X86 yes but more suited for embedded systems. The patch goes mike tyson on every X86/X64 CPU basicly and harms performance depending on workload.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
5,847 (0.81/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) 3x AOC Q32E2N (32" 2560x1440 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G602
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
Here's an interesting possibility as to why the PTI patch is applied to AMD as well as Intel: a partially redacted comment in the Linux kernel sources referring to a Ryzen bug that has to be worked around.

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linu...5aa90a84589282b87666f92b6c3c917c8080a9bf#n864

You need to keep quiet sometimes. (we know you hate AMD) The new patch is already out that excludes AMD CPUs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/7nr7dy/_/ds46kfe
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/7nqy3h/_/ds42kks

1. I don't hate AMD or their CPUs. I do hate it when companies endorse their marketing teams' lies in order to sell products that they know are inferior (see: Bulldozer).
2. I prefer to source my infosec news from places other than anonymous and unverifiable Reddit comments, thanks.

What about VIA? Nobody said they are vulnerable, but still suffer the impact from workaround-fix.
The patch should look more like "if (intel) then apply fix", rather than "if (not amd) then apply fix".

I doubt the VIA x86 marketshare is large enough for it to matter whether they're affected or not. In particular, i don't imagine you'll find many of their CPUs in datacenters...
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
9,436 (3.28/day)
System Name Good enough
Processor AMD Ryzen R9 7900 - Alphacool Eisblock XPX Aurora Edge
Motherboard ASRock B650 Pro RS
Cooling 2x 360mm NexXxoS ST30 X-Flow, 1x 360mm NexXxoS ST30, 1x 240mm NexXxoS ST30
Memory 32GB - FURY Beast RGB 5600 Mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire RX 7900 XT - Alphacool Eisblock Aurora
Storage 1x Kingston KC3000 1TB 1x Kingston A2000 1TB, 1x Samsung 850 EVO 250GB , 1x Samsung 860 EVO 500GB
Display(s) LG UltraGear 32GN650-B + 4K Samsung TV
Case Phanteks NV7
Power Supply GPS-750C
I find it fascinating how this thread exploded even more than the Intel one from which this whole thing started.
 
Top