Mining Algorithms Explained

[cdawall]

With Nicehash coming back online and some general questions I have seen on here among other places I frequent I figured it was time to do a break down of the different GPU mining algorithms that are out there. I am going to ignore anything scrypt related. This is a work in progress and I will update it as time continues.

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Algorithms:

Blake (2b)
THIS ALGORITHM IS NOW MINED BY SCRYPT MINERS AND IS NOT PROFITABLE ON A GPU.

Spoiler

Blake (2b) This is supposed to have a dedicated scrypt miner one day (no idea how true this is or if I missed it). This is one of the algos that is dual mined with ethash. With a properly setup card there will be no drop in Ethash performance. For an RX 470/480/570/580 that happens right around dcri - 28-30. Most common miner is claymore's dual miner. Common coin is SIA. I am going to leave card speed off on this one since it is dual mined.

Blake (2S)
This is a GPU intensive miner that heavily favors Nvidia cards. This is also part of the new Claymore Ethash dual miner, these numbers are for single mining Blake2S. The 1080Ti is the most efficient common card available for this. CCminer is the common miners for this algo. This is a higher power usage miner, with lower ram usage. Common coins for this are Verge, Honey
Common cards:
DUAL MINING
AMD 78X0/R9 270(X):300-500MH/s@150-180w ethash@14MH/s (LOW DAG COINS)
AMD 79X0/R9 280(X):400-600MH/s@180-250w ethash@20-24MH/s (LOW DAG COINS)
AMD R9 290(X)/390(X):1400-1600MH/s@250-300w ethash@30-32MH/s
AMD RX 550 640SP@768SP: 200-500MH/s@50-65w ethash@12-14MH/s
AMD RX 460/560 1024SP:400-700MH/s@50-65w ethash@14-16MH/s
AMD RX 470/480/570/580:1200-1600MH/s@150-180w ethash@28-32MH/s
SINGLE MINING
Nvidia GTX 1050Ti: 1500-1800MH/s@50-70w
Nvidia GTX 1060: 2200-2400MH/s@70-100w
Nvidia GTX 1070: 3400-3700H/s@110-140w
Nvidia GTX 1080: 4300-4600H/s@120-160w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti: 5900MH/s-6400MH/s@180-230w

Cryptonight
This is a memory intensive miner that heavily favors AMD cards, most specifically the new VEGA cards. This is by far the most profitable algo for VEGA right now. SGminer, XMR-Stack, CCminer, Claymore's Cryptonight are common miners for this algo. Typically power usage is quite low for all cards (20-40% lower than ethash/equihash miners). The lowered power usage makes this algo very nice for some of the older more power hungry cards. This is still profitible with Tahiti, Tonga and Hawaii cards. Common coins, SUMO, ETN, Monero
Common cards:
AMD 78X0/R9 270(x):450H/s@100-120w
AMD 79X0/R9 280(x):450-550H/s@100-120w
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):750-850H/s@120-150w
AMD RX 550: 350-400H/s@35w
AMD RX 460/560: 450-550H/s@35-55w
AMD RX 470/570/480/580: 750-1050H/s@70-100w
AMD Vega 56/64: 1900-2100H/s@150-250w
Nvidia GTX 1060:400-500H/s@50-70w
Nvidia GTX 1070:600-700H/s@80-90w
Nvidia GTX 1080:500-600H/s@60-80w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:800-900H/s@100-120w

Equihash
This is a GPU intensive miner that heavily favors Nvidia cards. The 1080Ti is the most efficient common card available for this. DTSM, EWBF, Optiminer, Claymore's, nheqminer are common miners for this algo. This is a higher power usage miner, with lower ram usage. This algo is known to bring PSU's to their knee's if you are cutting it close. Common coins, BTG, ZEN, ZEC, ZCL, HUSH
Common cards:
AMD 78X0/R9 270(X):150-190Sol/s@150-180w
AMD 79X0/R9 280(X):250-300Sol/s@180-250w
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):350-450Sol/s@250-350w
AMD Fury(x):450-500Sol/s@200-300w
AMD RX 470/570/480/580:300-350Sol/s@100-150w
Nvidia GTX 1060:260-340Sol/s@80-120w
Nvidia GTX 1070:400-470Sol/s@120-180w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:450-500Sol/s@120-180w
Nvidia GTX 1080:500-600sol/s@200-250w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:800-900sol/s@250-300w

Ethash
I would credit this algo with the great push for modern GPU mining. Currently the DAG file is the great limiter, you need at least a 3GB GPU to mine this right now, 3GB cards are tagged to last through April of 2019 at time of this writing. This is a middle of the road for power usage, it is memory intensive and is the big coin side used for dual mining. Common miners would be Claymore's, ethminer. NOTE: Mining on Maxwell based GPU's requires an OLD driver 347.88. Common coins, ETH, UBQ, EXP, PIRL, MUSIC. There are other nuances about this algo, due to the way the DAG works, older AMD cards (Tahiti/Tonga) you need to mine low difficulty/early DAG coins to maintain a useful hashrate, as the DAG grows the memory controller is further stressed lowering hashrate on AMD cards, Nvidia's 970 also seems to suffer some from this as things get closer to maxing out it's 3.5GB of fast memory.

Current DAG limitations for cards inside of Windows 10 using Claymore's miner on a standard configuration. I am basing the estimates off of how far off the current DAG vs memory size is.

DAG 90: 2GB cards; UBIQ/Expanse/Soilcoin/Pirl still minable
DAG 180: 3GB cards; Ethereum/Musiccoin/UBIQ/Expanse/Soilcoin/Pirl still minable
DAG 300 ESTIMATED: 4GB cards; (all ethash coins still minable)
DAG 600 ESTIMATED: 6GB cards; (all ethash coins still minable)
DAG 805 ESTIMATED: 8GB cards; (all ethash coins still minable)

Common Cards
AMD 78X0/R9 270(x):16-20MH/s@150-200w NOTE THIS IS ONLY WHEN MINING LOW DAG COINS, 2GB of ram removes the ability to mine ETH
AMD 79X0/R9 280(x):18-24MH/s@150-200w NOTE THIS IS ONLY WHEN MINING LOW DAG COINS
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):30-33MH/s@200-250w
AMD RX 550 640SP@768SP: 12-15MH/s@35-55w NOTE PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO RAM AMOUNT
AMD RX 460/560: 13.5-15.5MH/s@35-55w NOTE PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO RAM AMOUNT
AMD RX 470/570/480/580: 28-32.5MH/s@70-120w
AMD Vega 56/64: 38-47MH/s@150-250w
Nvidia GTX 1050Ti:13-15.5H/s@40-90w
Nvidia GTX 1060:18-25.5H/s@50-90w NOTE Hynix based cards are very weak in this, Samsung is the better option by far
Nvidia GTX 1070:29-33MH/s@80-120w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:31-34MH/s@80-120w
Nvidia GTX 1080:38-42MH/s@80-120w NOTE ethpill updated
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:51-55MH/s@120-180w NOTE ethpill updated

Groestl
This is one of the algo's I do not know a huge amount about, from what I can gather it's power is around keccak, lyra2rev2 and LBRY, it also looks to be GPU intensive and shows favoritism to Nvidia. Unfortunately none of the coins I researched showed much for profits, this could be wrong please do your own research to verify. Common miners are CCminer and SGminer. Common coins are GRS, XMY and SRC.
Common cards:
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):15-20MH/s@250-300w
AMD RX470/570/480/580: 15-20M0H/s@90-140w
AMD Vega 56/64: 36-42H/s@150-250w
Nvidia GTX 1070:33-38MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:35-40H/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080:42-50MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:55-65MH/s@180-220w

Keccak
This is a bit less common of an algo, but there are still some profitable coins on it. This is a GPU intensive coin that favors nvidia. Power usage is similar to Neoscrypt, LBRY and Lyra2Rev2 coins. Common miners are SGminer, CCminer. Common coins are MAX, SLOT, METH, NXS, SMART
Common Cards
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):400-500H/s@250-300w
AMD RX470/570/480/580: 400-500H/s@90-150w
Nvidia GTX 1060:450-550H/s@90-130w
Nvidia GTX 1070:700-800H/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:800-900H/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080:900-1000H/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:1200-1300H/s@150-250w

LBRY
Used to mine LBRY, it is a GPU intensive algorithm that favors Nvidia and scales well with more CUDA cores, power usage is similar to Neoscrypt, Lyra2rev2 and Keccak. Common miners are CCminer and SGminer. The only coin is LBRY.
Common Cards
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):80-110MH/s@250-300w
AMD RX470/570/480/580:100-150MH/s@90-150w
Nvidia GTX 1060:150-200MH/s@90-130w
Nvidia GTX 1070:250-300MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:300-350MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080:350-400MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:450-500MH/s@150-250w

Lyra2h
This algorithm is for the new HPP coin that recently came out aimed at distributed computing. I am still currently working out how it performs on cards, power consumption matches most other core heavy algorithms. There is a special fork for CCminer and SGminer for this.

Lyra2Rev2
This algo is very common thanks to VTC, it is yet another nvidia loving GPU intensive miner. Power usage is similar to Neoscrypt, Keccak and LBRY. Common miners are MKXminer, CCminer and SGminer. Common coins are MONA and VTC.
Common Cards
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):32MH/s@250-300w
AMD RX470/570/480/580: 36MH/s@90-150w
Nvidia GTX 1060:20-25MH/s@90-130w
Nvidia GTX 1070:35-42MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:37-47MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080:45-55MH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:64-72MH/s@150-250w

Neoscrypt
This is a bit less common of an algo, but looks to have some of the more profitable coins for the upcoming year on it. This is a GPU intensive coin that still prefers higher memory clocks, the algo as of the advent of Claymore's miner now prefers AMD admittedly at a higher wattage, even older AMD cards excel at it, I have had trouble keeping AMD GPU's cool on this algorithm. Power usage is higher than Ethash miners, higher than equihash (typically), but slightly lower than dual mining. Common miners are Claymore's, CCminer, SGminer and HSRminer. Common coins are TZC, VIVO, ORB
Common Cards
AMD 78X0/R9 270(X): 450-600KH/s@140-200w
AMD 79X0/R9 280(X): 600-800KH/s@180-250w
AMD R9 290(x)/390(x):800-1000KH/s@280-330w
AMD RX460/560 896SP:330-350KH/s@35-60w
AMD RX460/560 1024SP: 350-450KH/s@35-60w
AMD RX470/570/480/580: 900-1100KH/s@90-150w
AMD Vega 56: 1300-1500KH/s@250w
AMD Vega 64/FE: 1900-2200KH/s@250-300w
Nvidia GTX 1060:450-750KH/s@90-130w
Nvidia GTX 1070:900-1400KH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1070Ti:1000-1400KH/s@140-200w
Nvidia GTX 1080:1100-1500KH/s@140-200w RECOMMEND HSRminer
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti:1500-1900KH/s@150-250w RECOMMEND HSRminer

Pascal
Typically dual mined with ethereum, favors Nvidia for dual miners.

Skunkhash(-Raptor)
This is a combination of Skein, Cubehash, Fugue and Gost; it is quite intense to mine. Some cards actually have issues at full GPU percent allocation. Favors Nvidia yet again. SP_mod fork of ccminer gives the best rates.
Common Cards
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti: 32MH/s@180-220w

TimeTravel2
This is one of the single coin algo's from what I can tell. This runs best on Nvidia, there is some talk that it isn't actually profitable on AMD at all, I have not had a chance to test that personally. Power usage dead matches most of the other algo's seen in CCminer. This mines BTX (Bitcore).
Common Cards
Nvidia GTX 1060 3GB: 11MH/s@80-110w
Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB: 12MH/s@80-110w
Nvidia GTX 1070: 18-19MH/s@110-130w
Nvidia GTX 1080: 20-21MH/s@110-130w
Nvidia GTX 1080Ti: 30-31MH/s@180-220w

X11Ghost
More favored by the Ruskies. SIBcoin is the go to coin for this. It is another loved by Nvidia algorithm. Tpruvot fork of CCminer gives the best rates, also supported by SGminer.
Common Cards
Nvidia GTX 1070: 11MH/s@130-150w


Miners:

The different miners and how to set them up.

CCminer--
Create a run.bat file inside of the directory with the ccminer.exe. Take note to how the exe is labeled.

Inside the .bat file make a single line of code that is similar to this. Obviously this particular one is setup for neoscrypt if you are mining a different algorithm you would put that there.

ccminer -t 4 -a neoscrypt -o stratum+tcp://pool.trezarcoin.com:6666 -u cdawall.test -p test

first item is the exe you are trying to run, mine is labeled ccminer.exe so the program call is "ccminer". The -t command is number of threads, not every ccminer requires this switch, KlausT's does. This .bat is setup for 4 cards so I am running 4 threads. The -a command refers to algorithm, in this case neoscrypt. The -o command is referencing the pool to point to, I am mining Trezarcoin on the official pool through port 6666 which happens to be the variable difficulty port. Some coins/polls have set difficulty ports pay attention to match your rig based on what difficulty you need. Low difficulty shares are worth less than high difficulty ones. The -u command is for user this pool requires a user login and a miner name. In this case I am using a user name of cdawall and a rig name of test. The -p command references password which is required for this pool. The default is typically "x"

Claymore's--
These typically have a couple files in there to help you out, one start.bat and one config file. The Start.bat will simply call the miner up, most claymore miners will use a config file if you don't put any other commands in the .bat. We are going to be dealing with the "config" file now.

-xpool stratum+tcp://etn-eu1.nanopool.org:13333
-xwal etnjxiUh3fMFfPRvzsxheFboxvqZ55spqDXwY2p2Sx92Xa58K99Pe6p8xhK46HSrqmgX6cxP5sPKUB7zCq3zZhUB3PNwAM4FNc.270x/cdawall@email.com
-xpsw z
-dmem 1
-h 480
-cclock 950
-cvddc 950
-mclock 1500
-powlim -20
-tt 75
-fanmin 80
-tstop 89

So this setup is a bit different, but basically the same as CCminer (this will get redundant soon). -cpool is going to be your pool, i am connected to nanopool for etn. -xwal is your wallet address, nanopool supports rig naming and you can sync it to your email for updates on system outages. I have names this one "270x" and it goes to my not real email of cdawall@email.com. Next up is -xpsw which is just the password which is a default z on this. This particular version of claymore is claymore cyrptonote which is the cryptonight algorithm, the -dmem 1 flag uses double the memory. -h is for memory usage/intensity, there is more to what this exactly stands for, for now just know whatever number you type times 4.2 gives you ram usage, this config will use 2016mb, which is about perfect for my 2gb 270x. The next lines are all for clockspeeds/voltages, this is easier than dealing with msiafterburner/wattman, cclock is core clock, cvddc is core voltage in mV, mclock is memory clock, powlim is power limit. If you want multiple cards individually set separate the information with a comma -cclock 950, 1000, 1500 would assign three cards the clockspeeds of 950, 1000 and 1500 respectively. You can control the other values in the config file in this manner. -tt is "target temperature" it will adjust fans to try and hit that temp, -fanmin sets a minimum fan speed. tstop sets a stop temperature, this is set to 89C.

DTSM

EWBF

I only mess with the run.bat on this, there are things you can tweak inside of the config file if you feel the need to.

miner --server eu.btgpool.pro --port 3857 --user GXMxPzC1ZAQD5ywHYxyPzwifAmLhNaxcUD.worker --pass x --pec

Pretty simple miner to get going. As always you are going to call the program, the it is --server for the server, --port for the port, --user for your address.worker if your pool supports the .worker extension, --pass for the password (default x is used here) and --pec is the only extra switch I throw in on this one. That gives you the power to sol ratio for your card to track power usage.

SGminer

Gateless Gate

This setup is a little more involved. If you check out my other thread I get into specifics on tuning the cards.

{
  "algorithm": "neoscrypt",
  "intensity": "13",
  "worksize": "256",
  "gpu-threads": "1",
  "load-balance": true,

  "auto-fan": true,
  "temp-cutoff": "90",
  "temp-overheat": "85",
  "temp-target": "70",
  
  "pools": [
    {
      "name": "MAIN",
      "user": "cdawall.'sminer",
      "pass": "x",
      "quota": "99;stratum+tcp://sgl.suprnova.cc:3160"
    },
    {
      "__comment": "Please keep this entry. Otherwise, I won't be able to continue open-source development. - zawawa", 
      "name":"DEVFEE",
      "user": "zawawa.gatelessgate",
      "pass": "x",
      "quota": "1;s1.theblocksfactory.com:3333"
    }
  ]
}

XMR-STAK

This one doesn't actually require you to make the .bat files and has an auto run to prepare everything for you. This is a somewhat one click miner for AMD/NV/CPU. Just insert pool, address and user/password when prompted. If you are trying to mine just AMD or just nvidia delete the CPU bat file in the miner after it creates it and the .dll for either cuda (Nvidia) or opencl (AMD).

There is argument that performance rate on this is the best for Cryptonight, my own personal experiences seem to reflect that actual shares at the pool is the similar to claymore's miner. That being said there is a Vega specific fork for this that is by far the best.

 

[verycharbroiled]

looking forward to this. be nice to have this info all in one place.

sent ya a small tip tx id in a pm.

 

[cdawall]

looking forward to this. be nice to have this info all in one place.

sent ya a small tip tx id in a pm.

You know my phone just buzzed from that I appreciate it!

 

[cdawall]

Updated some things, will add more information as I move on.

 

[flmatter]

@W1zzard @Norton @erocker is there a way to make this a sticky at the top?
@cdawall great work man!

 

[W1zzard]

Sticky and title updated

 

[Troy210]

Everything I've ever wanted to know, in one nice post.

Tipped!

 

[FordGT90Concept]

New title is misleading. Should maybe be "Mining Algorithms Compared" instead. OP doesn't actually explain how they work.

 

[GreiverBlade]

New title is misleading. Should maybe be "Mining Algorithms Compared" instead. OP doesn't actually explain how they work.

yep ... i came expecting an explanation on what a miner GPU do compute like something useful for once, like WCG ... but lets not dream or something more shady (though most would say "the procedure is totally transparent" and can be found anywhere ... while i have been searching for a while and didn't find a clue about that )


sooooo what the energy invested in does? surely not only mining Virtual$$$ while covering the electricity bill and adding a bonus for ... "free" (since nothing is really free in this world ... and i would rather see that excessive consumption benefiting to something like WCG/F@H, although ... being rewarded for something i did quite often for free would feel weird and mmhhh.... somewhat less noble, but still better than the actual mining work setup)


nonetheless that thread/post is.... kinda... useful (tho not for me ) .... and well done

 

[R-T-B]

though most would say "the procedure is totally transparent" and can be found anywhere ... while i have been searching for a while and didn't find a clue about that

You can find the whitepapers for most of the hash algorithms with some legwork. Here's how to mine sha-256 bitcoin by pen and paper, as an example:

http://www.righto.com/2014/09/mining-bitcoin-with-pencil-and-paper.html

 

[phill]

Very useful and full of info Even see some driver versions in there too, brilliant

 

[GreiverBlade]

You can find the whitepapers for most of the hash algorithms with some legwork. Here's how to mine sha-256 bitcoin by pen and paper, as an example:

http://www.righto.com/2014/09/mining-bitcoin-with-pencil-and-paper.html

interesting, thanks.

nonetheless ...
"Bitcoin mining is a key part of the security of the Bitcoin system. The idea is that Bitcoin miners group a bunch of Bitcoin transactions into a block, then repeatedly perform a cryptographic operation called hashing zillions of times until someone finds a special extremely rare hash value. At this point, the block has been mined and becomes part of the Bitcoin block chain. The hashing task itself doesn't accomplish anything useful in itself, but because finding a successful block is so difficult, it ensures that no individual has the resources to take over the Bitcoin system."

mmmhhh so the compute power is actually used to "encrypt" cryptocoins transactions ... well ... security is important i reckon, so, in the end you are "paid" to improve the cryptography of the coins in question ... too bad, so sad it's not used for something like F@H/WCG even partially.
My point of view of the cryptocurrencies remain the same then.

[sarcasme]what they say in surface ... eh... [/sarcasme]

 

[R-T-B]

interesting, thanks.

nonetheless ...
"Bitcoin mining is a key part of the security of the Bitcoin system. The idea is that Bitcoin miners group a bunch of Bitcoin transactions into a block, then repeatedly perform a cryptographic operation called hashing zillions of times until someone finds a special extremely rare hash value. At this point, the block has been mined and becomes part of the Bitcoin block chain. The hashing task itself doesn't accomplish anything useful in itself, but because finding a successful block is so difficult, it ensures that no individual has the resources to take over the Bitcoin system."

mmmhhh so the compute power is actually used to "encrypt" cryptocoins transactions ... well ... security is important i reckon, so, in the end you are "paid" to improve the cryptography of the coins in question ... too bad, so sad it's not used for something like F@H/WCG even partially.
My point of view of the cryptocurrencies remain the same then.

[sarcasme]what they say in surface ... eh... [/sarcasme]

Most of them don't do anything useful beyond securing the network.

LBRY might be the exception (it runs a peer to peer media platform), as well as a spattering of blockchain storage solutions.

 

[cdawall]

Most of them don't do anything useful beyond securing the network.

LBRY might be the exception (it runs a peer to peer media platform), as well as a spattering of blockchain storage solutions.

There are quite a few coins that do useful things as coins.

 

[R-T-B]

There are quite a few coins that do useful things as coins.

Besides the two types I stated? I'm admitedly out of date on this but I'd be interested to learn if you can elaborate.

 

[Devon68]

From the title I was expecting a Linus Tech Tips video

 

[flmatter]

There are quite a few coins that do useful things as coins

I'd be interested to learn if you can elaborate

Kitties hahaha just joking

 

[cdawall]

Besides the two types I stated? I'm admitedly out of date on this but I'd be interested to learn if you can elaborate.

https://rendertoken.com/

https://foldingcoin.net/

https://curecoin.net/

http://fortune.com/2017/09/12/diamond-blockchain-everledger/

These are just a couple I know of off of the top of my head. Too many people assume blockchain is useless as is the rendering ability of the cards, but that isn't true.

 

[cdawall]

Did some updating. Testing some new coins out will update new algos as I can.

 

[cdawall]

Got quite a bit updated in there.

Change log
Added as much information as I could even for some older cards all algorithms.
Added RX 550 640SP information, all information used for cards modded to 768SP.
Added in some dual mining information on B2S and Ethash.
Updated neoscrypt for claymore's miner which blows everything away. It is good to see those vega cores working.
Added in some information on Ethash DAG dilemmas.

 

[verycharbroiled]

Got quite a bit updated in there.

Change log
[...]

nice.

man i am so behind on some of these things. guess im in just "set and forget" mode with mining lately. i check my sole 7 card rig every few days. its always purring along with no input from me, and i do like it that way.

i really should pay more attention to new coins/algos/miners and such, im sure im leaving some profit on the table. but that stupid real life stuff..

 

[cdawall]

nice.

man i am so behind on some of these things. guess im in just "set and forget" mode with mining lately. i check my sole 7 card rig every few days. its always purring along with no input from me, and i do like it that way.

i really should pay more attention to new coins/algos/miners and such, im sure im leaving some profit on the table. but that stupid real life stuff..

If I could keep power stable I would be in that boat. Power grid down here could use a hug.

 

[cdawall]

Updated ethash based information for nvidia GDDR5x cards using "ethpill"

https://github.com/OhGodACompany/OhGodAnETHlargementPill

my revision B cards with 80% TDP, +100 core and +540 memory. -dcri is set to 75 for this

 

[notb]

Added in some information on Ethash DAG dilemmas.

OMG this isn't just a necropost. This is a necroidea.

 

[cdawall]

OMG this isn't just a necropost. This is a necroidea.

Yea it has been a long time since I have updated this. Just not the profit in it there was.