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NVIDIA's New GPP Program Reportedly Engages in Monopolistic Practices

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Let me put a what if scenario for you dudes.

Imagine AMD manage to somehow pull a RyZen on nVidia and launch GPU(s) that were @ least on par with Titan V or, better yet, actually faster: what would these new "GPP adopting companies" do?

In this case, their main gaming brand would suddenly become "not so main" anymore. If AMD actually became faster it would be hilarious, specially if AMD were to "enforce their new brands" to become AMD only.

Highly doubtful, i know, but still ...
 

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Let me put a what if scenario for you dudes.

Imagine AMD manage to somehow pull a RyZen on nVidia and launch GPU(s) that were @ least on par with Titan V or, better yet, actually faster: what would these new "GPP adopting companies" do?

In this case, their main gaming brand would suddenly become "not so main" anymore. If AMD actually became faster it would be hilarious, specially if AMD were to "enforce their new brands" to become AMD only.

Highly doubtful, i know, but still ...
I think you're on to something there. There is no "main" gaming brand, there are just brands. The one that sells the most can be considered "main", but beyond that it's really just stickers and boxes.
 

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This is interesting.

NotebookCheck: Where are all the Kaby Lake-G laptops? Nvidia's GeForce Partner Program may be to blame

NotebookCheck said:
We've spoken to three independent and reliable sources close to Notebookcheck and they have all suggested the same reasoning - Nvidia is strongly responsible for keeping Kaby Lake-G from proliferating. Factor in the loud rumors about the anti-competitive terms of Nvidia's GPP, the rumors of HP and Dell keeping their distance from the program, and AMD's own VP acknowledging the leaks and they all strongly point to Nvidia putting a tight lid on the Kaby Lake-G platform.
 

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I suspect it has more to do with HBM2, chips, and interposer supply to make Kaby Lake-G processors. It only takes one hang up for supply to dry up.

That said, I could see some vendors like ASUS refusing to sell a Republic of Gamers laptop with the chip because of GPP. HP and Dell, I doubt it. Intel is their #1 partner and AMD is their #2 partner. Doubt they care much what NVIDIA is doing.
 

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I suspect it has more to do with HBM2, chips, and interposer supply to make Kaby Lake-G processors. It only takes one hang up for supply to dry up.

That said, I could see some vendors like ASUS refusing to sell a Republic of Gamers laptop with the chip because of GPP. HP and Dell, I doubt it. Intel is their #1 partner and AMD is their #2 partner. Doubt they care much what NVIDIA is doing.
It may also have something to do with this: https://ark.intel.com/products/codename/136847/Kaby-Lake-G
Intel themselves seem to mark these CPUs as "announced", so there's no availability to speak of. But this may be caused exactly by what you've noted above.
 
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I know i've said that i won't post again at GPP thread, but i have to make one exception and post Elric's recent video because what he's stating -if true- is of outmost importance.
With this GPP story, @Kyle stated at his [H] thread that nVidia's behaviour is anti-competitive and anti-consumer. Well, let's see if he will make a comment about this video as well, in which we have a reviewer who states that in all his reviewing years, ONLY AMD has pressed him and dictated him about how to do his reviews!!:eek: (*04:50min. of this video).
Personally, i don't know if Kyle will comment on this, -since, as he said, his intention is to warn consumers about this anti-competitive & anti-consumer GPProgram- , but personally, as a consumer myself, i feel that what Elric is stating for AMD is also anti-competitive and anti-consumer, so, me, as a consumer i'm putting this accusation in the same importance with Kyle's accusations for the GPProgram !!
 

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He sure prattles on.
1) He said up front that the guy responsible for it is no longer with AMD. Problem solved? Why is the video 7 minutes longer than that?
2) Accepting free hardware for review purposes always has strings attached. Some are worse than others.
3) Any reviewer that doesn't like those strings (which he admitted he does not) may secure the hardware for review from retail channels.
4) End of the video he was pretty much just promoting himself and his sugar daddy.

Asking reviewers to do or not do things is not something that falls under anti-trust law (definitely anti-press and something that should be frowned upon). Getting your partners to do something with the express purpose of hurting a competitor does.
 
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Did Elric ever clarify that the information he was told by Nvidia about Kyle was wrong?
 
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Once again, i'll prove myself :oops:wrong:oops: about having said that i won't post at this GPP thread again, but considering the fact of how much of fame/infame it was given at this GPP project, i believe that it would be a shame not to add in this thread a relevant "History" video as well, in order for it to remind us all of how companies tend to behave in order to keep/enlarge their marketshare.
So, anyone who wants a quick history lesson as a guide , -alongside our "beloved" GPP project:p !!!- , MUST give a look at Jim(AdoredTV)'s :respect:outstanding :respect:video!!! :


After you finish watching this "history" video , ask yourself these 2 :
1) ""Even after all these fines being applied to Intel, which one is the company who keeps dominating the computer market -financially&marketshare- if not ....Intel ? "".
With this as a given, what is the ..... "moral" lesson for the other companies ? perhaps that these kind of tactics can give you dominance over your competitors?
After all these methods being applied by Intel all these years, and still Intel being No1 , who can blame nVidia or any other company who will behave similarily ?
2) Still, besides all these methods that were used against AMD in the past, where exactly do we stand now at the present moment ? :
AMD is cooperating with Intel providing them with the graphic-power that Intel is lacking at !!!

(*And although AMD have aligned themselves with someone who had almost obliterated them from the market in the past, !!! yet still, some antiGPP-tech-journalists expect from me (*as a consumer i mean) to be outraged with these kind of corporate-tactics that even AMD seem to have forgotten!! , given their present alliances!! soooo, ....."no thanks, i won't bite ;)" )
 

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>Even after all these fines being applied to Intel, which one is the company who keeps dominating the computer market -financially&marketshare- if not ....Intel ?
It was already stated in this thread that Intel profited more from their rebate program than they paid in fines. NVIDIA has taken the same calculated risk with GPP.

>With this as a given, what is the ..... "moral" lesson for the other companies ?
The FTC doesn't just fine, they enforce as well and reevaluate compliance. Intel hasn't blatantly been anti-competitive since the FTC dropped the hammer on them.

>perhaps that these kind of tactics can give you dominance over your competitors?
It did, for a while. Intel had the inferior product (Pentium 4) yet AMD struggled to take marketshare from them. Intel sweetned the deal for OEMs under the table so they wouldn't offer AMD products.

>After all these methods being applied by Intel all these years, and still Intel being No1 , who can blame nVidia or any other company who will behave similarily ?
Intel remained dominant because of their process technology edge. Now with Global Foundries matching and exceeding Intel, Intel is losing marketshare again. Anti-competition law isn't about weakening businesses that sell good products; it is about stopping companies from shaping the market that is a barrier to competitors.

NVIDIA knows it's illegal and did it anyway. They're making the same calculated decision Intel did ~15 years ago. GPP's days are numbered because the law will eventually catch up.

> Still, besides all these methods that were used against AMD in the past, where exactly do we stand now at the present moment ?
AMD is selling chips to Intel as part of their semi-custom business. NVIDIA and Intel have a strained relationship, more so than AMD and Intel. Intel wanted a more powerful GPU because customers demand it, they didn't want to create one themselves for some reason, and they don't want to do business with NVIDIA, AMD was the only remaining choice.
 
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...........................
AMD is selling chips to Intel as part of their semi-custom business. NVIDIA and Intel have a strained relationship, more so than AMD and Intel. Intel wanted a more powerful GPU because customers demand it, they didn't want to create one themselves for some reason, and they don't want to do business with NVIDIA, AMD was the only remaining choice.

Yeah but my point was how AMD chooses to behave, not Intel or nVidia:
since they don't have a problem to work with a company which applied these kind of fierce tactics against AMD many times in the past then why should i , the customer care? They are the directly-affected side but still , they are doing business with their former rivals so...... ;)
-(*to be honest, untill i saw Jim's video i wasn't aware of all these tactics that's why i posted this video.
I only remembered the incident with nVidia's nForce chipsets, -since i used to buy nForce motherboards back then- , which they were forced out of the market after a law dispute with Intel if i'm not mistaken. They were great chipsets as well, but , unlike now, i don't remember any tech-journalist starting a campaign back then saying "These tactics will damage consumer choices" .
Consumer choice indeed have been impacted back then though !! ;))-
 

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I don't get your point. AMD isn't holding a grudge against Intel for something they did 15 years ago and were paid $1.25 billion to AMD to settle (2009). It's water under the bridge until Intel does it again.

You couldn't get AMD chips from Dell back when Intel was doing the rebates even though AMD had the better product. People buy Dells not caring what is in them. AMD was fiscally damaged because of the Dell/Intel arragement and Dell's customers were unwittingly getting inferior, uncompetitive products.
 
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I don't get your point. AMD isn't holding a grudge against Intel for something they did 15 years ago and were paid $1.25 billion to AMD to settle (2009). It's water under the bridge until Intel does it again.

You couldn't get AMD chips from Dell back when Intel was doing the rebates even though AMD had the better product. People buy Dells not caring what is in them. AMD was fiscally damaged because of the Dell/Intel arragement and Dell's customers were unwittingly getting inferior, uncompetitive products.


Exactly my point.
Since companies use to settle between them, then why should i be "obsessed" defending their interests ? !!
I was extremely sad back then, when due to legal arguments, a product that i used to buy ( nForce motherboards ) had been cut-off from the market, regardless of their high quality as a product. But these are the standard multinational-corporate tactics so i'm not surprised.
[*I know (*and after i saw Jim's video i'm most certain), as i'm sure you know as well, that multinational-companies will exploit every leverage they have in order to gain more &more marketshare].
BUT.... I can't -and never won't- understand Kyle's ......"obsession" about the GPProgram. !! That's my main problem.
That with the use of titles such as "GeForce Partner Program Impacts Consumer Choice" Kyle transforms a matter that should be settled at courts between companies, -whether this is legal or not-, into a matter that implicates consumers. He acts like he's not aware that these are standard multinational-companies-methods that's why i posted Jim's video, in order for all of us to remember what Intel used to do all these past years, and also, that's why i said that with nForce chipsets being cut-off, the "consumer choices had been also impacted" .Did anyone started a campaign back then in order to "protect consumer choices" ? I can't remember such a thing if anyone remembers differently he/she can enlighten me .....
 
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>I was extremely sad back then, when due to legal arguments, a product that i used to buy ( nForce motherboards ) had been cut-off from the market, regardless of their high quality as a product. But these are the standard multinational-corporate tactics so i'm not surprised.
Moving the memory controller (and later GPU) to the CPU eliminated the incentive to have different chipset manufacturers. Two chip packages are more costly, slower, and less efficient than integrating chipset features into the CPU. In other words, the chipset market was going away for good because of the evolution of technology. Motherboard manufactures can still implement competitive features of their own using the PCIE lanes the CPU exposes.

>Kyle transforms a matter that should be settled at courts between companies, -whether this is legal or not-, into a matter that implicates consumers.
It won't go to court without public drawing the interest of regulators. How is "GeForce Partner Program Impacts Consumer Choice" wrong? GPP certainly isn't improving consumer choice.

>Did anyone started a campaign back then in order to "protect consumer choices" ?
Not really because the primary reason why NVIDIA got into the chipset business is to sell integrated GeForce chips. Why did that technology work? Because the memory controller was in the chipset too. Since the memory controller moved to the chipset, the integrated GPU did too. In the end, consumer choice expanded because now they have an integrated GPU with the option of installing a dedicated GPU. You can also buy processors that have no integrated GPU as well.

People weren't happy about VIA and NVIDIA getting left behind but it was inevitable due to CPU memory needs.

Edit: Here's a thread from the time NVIDIA left the market: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/10/09/1438204/NVIDIA-To-Exit-Chipset-Business

Remember, Intel signed a licensing agreement with NVIDIA to make their own integrated GPUs.

NVIDIA said:
We will continue to innovate integrated solutions for Intel’s FSB architecture. We firmly believe that this market has a long healthy life ahead. But because of Intel’s improper claims to customers and the market that we aren’t licensed to the new DMI bus and its unfair business tactics, it is effectively impossible for us to market chipsets for future CPUs. So, until we resolve this matter in court next year, we’ll postpone further chipset investments for Intel DMI CPUs.
That quote lead me to this: https://www.anandtech.com/show/4122/intel-settles-with-nvidia-more-money-fewer-problems-no-x86/2
The most notable bit here is that the chipset license agreement will now formally define that NVIDIA does not gain rights to DMI/QPI, which the agreement defines as being Intel processors with an on-chip/on-die memory controller. So while the company can continue to produce C2D chipsets, they will not be able to produce a Nehalem or Sandy Bridge chipset.
No court is going to compel Intel to license DMI/QPI to NVIDIA when there's little in the way of profit margins there (can't reasonably differentiate their product from Intel's).


I don't think NVIDIA sued AMD over chipsets likely because AMD was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy at the time and AMD can't really offer NVIDIA anything NVIDIA wants unlike Intel. Intel effectively paved the way for AMD to make APUs.
 
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>Kyle transforms a matter that should be settled at courts between companies, -whether this is legal or not-, into a matter that implicates consumers.
It won't go to court without public drawing the interest of regulators. How is "GeForce Partner Program Impacts Consumer Choice" wrong? GPP certainly isn't improving consumer choice.
........................................

This is a legal matter. Kyle shouldn't take position "flaming" things up.
I'm not a lawyer , he's not a lawyer, so we are both unable to judge what is inside legal boundaries or outside of them.
He said that he counseled his lawers and they told him that this program is most likely illegal, BUT nVidia has also their own lawyers, who have surely advised the company about the legality of this matter. So, obviously the lawyers from one of the two sides are mistaken. And since Kyle isn't a judge in order to make statements on legal matters, these are issues that should be addressed at courts, and Kyle shouldn't "flaming" things for which the courts haven't reached a decision yet.

P.S. As for the point whether or not this program "hurts consumer choices" , as a consumer myself , i have an entirely different perspective than Kyle's, and i can judge for myself if this "hurts" me or not.
I have analyzed my opinion extensively at [H]'s thread, before i get a warning from Kyle because i was just stating opinions that were different than his own.
1) To summarise very very briefly, one of the things i said: ( https://hardforum.com/threads/geforce-partner-program-impacts-consumer-choice.1955963/page-15 )
4b) The argument expressed by the "power community" is that the consumers will be "hurt" if the market is shifted even more towards NVidia. BUT... If this statement is correct, then it should apply for the OS systems as well, where Microsoft dominates the gaming market with their OS for decades, but ironicaly in this case no "power-user" is saying that this "hurts" the consumer's interests, no "power-user" is saying let's stop bying their products because this is damaging our interests from consumer-perspective (*which is their exact argument towards NVidia !! that if AMD looses ground this won't be beneficial to consumers in longterm!! So why wouldn't this argument apply for the OS area as well ?? and why the "power-community" doesn't say the same arguments for the windows OS as well?? )
2)EDIT:
4b) Not according to Steam Survey, where 98% of the OS are windows-based !!. We are talking about complete control of the gaming-market, so.... if it is claimed that there will be in the future a negative effect at the consumer market, as a result of NVidia's acts , then with the same logic , there is already a negative effect at the consumer market because of Microsoft's dominance as well, right ?
and also
3) I said here at TPU : ( https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...eon-graphics-cards.243088/page-2#post-3825246 )
Where exactly is the problem here ? (*i'm not referring to you personally, just used your comment in order to make a general comment)
Why are we all so "stunned" ? All these years there have been companies that support ONLY ONE manufacturer.
Palit, Zotac, Gainward etc they support ONLY nVidia , while Sapphire, Asrock(*new addition to the market) etc , they do support ONLY AMD.
So, apparently now, other companies that -untill now- they have been supplying both manufacturers, they are now adjusting their strategy.
Why haven't we been complaining all these past years about Sapphire which only supports AMD, or Zotac which only supports nVidia? If these have the right to support only 1, then why exactly ASUS, Gigabyte, MSI etc, don't have the right to revise their policy at some point as well , if they feel that this revision will serve their interests better
P.S.2: Thanks for the link about nForce by the way. I'll give it a look tomorrow;). EDIT:From what i can remember though, is that until those chipsets were cut-off from the market, according to reviews, they had superior performance than their competitor's. And for myself , as a consumer that was what mattered the most;)
 
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FordGT90Concept

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This is a legal matter. Kyle shouldn't take position "flaming" things up.
I'm not a lawyer , he's not a lawyer, so we are both unable to judge what is inside legal boundaries or outside of them.
He said that he counseled his lawers and they told him that this program is most likely illegal, BUT nVidia has also their own lawyers, who have surely advised the company about the legality of this matter. So, obviously the lawyers from one of the two sides are mistaken. And since Kyle isn't a judge in order to make statements on legal matters, these are issues that should be addressed at courts, and Kyle shouldn't "flaming" things for which the courts haven't reached a decision yet.
To go to court, you need to be damaged. Who were damaged? MSI, Gigabyte, ASUS. These are not US-based companies so they're protected by US anti-trust law. Instead of trying to fight it, they agreed to GPP's terms.

AMD is not the wounded party, at least not directly. They can't file suit until the effects of GPP definitively come back to them or a regulatory body like the FTC already rules that the terms of GPP are anti-trust material. Thing is, FTC doesn't investigate what they don't know about. Here's the timeline of what happened:
1) NVIDIA changed the terms of GPP.
2) AMD caught wind of this and communicated with their contacts trying to collect information about the language of the GPP because they could not obtain it directly from NVIDIA.
3) Kyle was one of the contacts and he started digging around. Because he wasn't directly affiliated with NVIDIA, the involved companies would talk off the record about GPP with him.
4) Kyle collated the information and ran it past his lawyers before publishing it knowing that his bridge to NVIDIA can be burned by going public with it.
5) The noise that Kyle's article generated caused other technology journalists to take a look at GPP to try to confirm/deny the claims. Most have responsed in concurrence.
6) The FTC started a probe into GPP. It often takes a year or more for the case to be brought forward.
7) Once the FTC rules GPP is anti-competitive, AMD will file suit against NVIDIA using the FTC ruling as leverage to get a settlement out of NVIDIA for damaging AMD's graphics card business.

Consumers and developers alike choose Windows. Name a specific anti-competitive practice Microsoft did the enforce their market dominance in the last two decades (e.g. buy out competitor, pay people to use their product over a competitors, etc.).

Who these companies want to do business with is entirely up to them; however, when a company decides to offer both products, NVIDIA can't pressure them to do anything where AMD is concerned and AMD can't pressure them to do anything where NVIDIA is concerned. That's anticompetitive.

From what i can remember though, is that until those chipsets were cut-off from the market, according to reviews, they had superior performance than their competitor's. And for myself , as a consumer that was what mattered the most;)
Performance didn't matter much after the FSB was moved entirely into the CPU.

Let's pretend that someone like NVIDIA wanted to make chipsets today. The only things they can do is modify USB2, USB3, SATA, PS/2, parallel ports, and maybe integrate audio. Thing is, all chipsets have the same PCIE budget exposed to it from the CPU. By adding more of these features, you reduce the lanes available to NVMe and AIBs. There's little in the way of differentiation between your product and what AMD/Intel offers. That's not because AMD/Intel wanted to shut NVIDIA out of the market; it's because the necessity for more bandwidth has lead to bringing everything closer to the CPU. Chipsets aren't a big money business anymore.
 
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To go to court, you need to be damaged. Who were damaged? MSI, Gigabyte, ASUS. These are not US-based companies so they're protected by US anti-trust law. Instead of trying to fight it, they agreed to GPP's terms.

AMD is not the wounded party, at least not directly. They can't file suit until the effects of GPP definitively come back to them or a regulatory body like the FTC already rules that the terms of GPP are anti-trust material. Thing is, FTC doesn't investigate what they don't know about. Here's the timeline of what happened:
1) NVIDIA changed the terms of GPP.
2) AMD caught wind of this and communicated with their contacts trying to collect information about the language of the GPP because they could not obtain it directly from NVIDIA.
3) Kyle was one of the contacts and he started digging around. Because he wasn't directly affiliated with NVIDIA, the involved companies would talk off the record about GPP with him.
4) Kyle collated the information and ran it past his lawyers before publishing it knowing that his bridge to NVIDIA can be burned by going public with it.
5) The noise that Kyle's article generated caused other technology journalists to take a look at GPP to try to confirm/deny the claims. Most have responsed in concurrence.
6) The FTC started a probe into GPP. It often takes a year or more for the case to be brought forward.
7) Once the FTC rules GPP is anti-competitive, AMD will file suit against NVIDIA using the FTC ruling as leverage to get a settlement out of NVIDIA for damaging AMD's graphics card business.

Interesting info, but as i said i can't (*i'm not a lawer) , and don't want to comment on legal matters. This is court's job not mine.
What i can do though is using my logic and try to make logical assumptions. So let me ask you this:
You said that : "5) The noise that Kyle's article generated caused other technology journalists to take a look at GPP to try to confirm/deny the claims. Most have responsed in concurrence."
Since only Kyle can claim that he has a certain document which proves that the agreement is illegal, this means that neither of us have the facts in order to conclude whether or not Kyle's statement is accurate. [*We must take his word for it, and personally, for different reasons than you can imagine (*not related to this thread, but an older topic) i have strong personal reasons to have some doubts.]
Anyway, to the point:
Let's say hypothetical, that the FTC will make a verdict which says that GPP isn't anti-competitive.
If this happens, can you tell me what nVidia can claim from Kyle afterwards ,if we take into consideration all this "flame" that Kyle has created so far that has damaged nVidia's reputation to the public from "The noise that Kyle's article generated" as you said ???

Consumers and developers alike choose Windows. Name a specific anti-competitive practice Microsoft did the enforce their market dominance in the last two decades (e.g. buy out competitor, pay people to use their product over a competitors, etc.).

Fine (*EDIT:although, if i'm not mistaken , Microsoft was forced to be split in two back in 2000, due to monopoly tactics, but i can't remember exactly what happened, i must re-check it https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2000/jun/07/microsoft.business1 ), but until the courts judge otherwise, NOR nVidia has applied so far anything that is an anti-competitive practice!!
The only one so far who claims this, is Kyle, and since he's not a judge as far as i know, he has no authority to imply such things unless he goes to courts to prove himself right !!
 
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If this happens, can you tell me what nVidia can claim from Kyle afterwards ,if we take into consideration all this "flame" that Kyle has created so far that has damaged nVidia's reputation to the public from "The noise that Kyle's article generated" as you said ???
NVIDIA likely already refuses to do business with him. If FTC rules in favor of NVIDIA and NVIDIA can prove that what Kyle said damaged them, they could sue him for defamation. The opposite is also true: if NVIDIA did shut him out and FTC ruled they were anti-competitive, Kyle can sue for damages because they cut him off from being able to review NVIDIA hardware as a technology journalist.


Fine (*EDIT:although, if i'm not mistaken , Microsoft was forced to be split in two back in 2000, due to monopoly tactics, but i can't remember exactly what happened, i must re-check it https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2000/jun/07/microsoft.business1 ), but until the courts judge otherwise, NOR nVidia has applied so far anything that is an anti-competitive practice!!
Microsoft appealed the decision and then settled with the Department of Justice. Microsoft was never split. Try again.
 
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thanks for the update, i wasn't sure what had happened.;)
So , although we had a judge's decision against Microsoft, afterwards Microsoft appealed and the judge's decision had been cancelled!!
So, what does Microsoft's case tells us? That even a primal-court's decision is possible be reversed afterwards through appeal, and in this case for nVidia, so far we don't even have a primal-court decision!!!
So, based on Microsoft's case, we can see how premature is right now for certain people to state a judge-alike verdicts for nVidia, without even having the authority to do that !!
 
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thanks for the update, i wasn't sure what had happened.;)
So , although we had a judge's decision against Microsoft, afterwards Microsoft appealed and the judge's decision had been cancelled!!
So, what does Microsoft's case tells us? That even a primal-court's decision is possible be reversed afterwards through appeal, and in this case for nVidia, so far we don't even have a primal-court decision!!!
So, based on Microsoft's case, we can see how premature is right now for certain people to state a judge-alike verdicts for nVidia, without even having the authority to do that !!

Did you read it? Microsoft was still found guilty. The penalties was what was being appealed.
 

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Back pedaling isn't going to stop the FTC from filing anti-trust charges.
 
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Back pedaling isn't going to stop the FTC from filing anti-trust charges.
To this day, the only detectable "harm" in GPP was separate gaming lines for AMD and Nvidia cards.
If AMD didn't prod Kyle at HardOCP to write that inflamatory article, I wonder if anyone noticed GPP at all.
 
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