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Thinking Outside the DRM: Denuvo Sues Founder of Piracy Group "REVOLT"

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1) Denuvo is bad and anti-consumer. There is no denying this. They are the enemies of the people as any DRm developer.
https://whyisdenuvobad.github.io/

2) The dude was talented enough to crack it but he was stupid enough to care more about likes and shit and being in the spotlight than his own safety and security. He should have learned from the Scene in this regard. Linux tails? Whonix? Veracrypt? protonvpn? i2p? Hello?

I always thought the way he behaved and operated so publicly was utterly bizarre and suicidal.

3) Now Denuvo's rep will be even worse than before which is a good thing.

3) Good luck to him
 

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So software piracy isn't theft?

Some claim software piracy isn't theft because no physical object was subtracted - by that reasoning, it's perfectly ok for person A to hire person B to mow their law and then refuse to pay them after the job is done - because, after all, no physical object is being taken from person B.

But it's not ok, of course. Call it whatever you want, but by not paying person B, person A is effectively forcefully taking from person B what is legitimately his: money that he will then use to feed himself and his family.

Behind any manufactured physical or digital object, and labor, is the very same thing: the energy someone spent manufacturing that object or performing said labor. THAT is what you are REALLY paying for, not the physical object itself.

To illustrate this, take a stone sculpture for instance: the stone that sculpture is made of is the same stone you can find everywhere in nature for free - but that is not what you are paying for. What you are paying for is the unique human creative energy that brought THAT particular sculpture into existence. And because every human being is unique, so is that sculpture. Likewise with software and any other intellectual property such as books, paintings, etc...

So, if a cracker enables other people to steal your goods, or the result of your labor, he is no different than someone who lock picks your front door and goes around announcing what he did so everyone else can get into your home and steal your stuff. As such, he deserves to be criminally prosecuted. In fact, I believe that starting to put crackers in jail would be a hundred times more effective (and more productive) than any DRM ever will.

As for DRM, I am as much against it as the next person, but some seem to forget that DRM came after the pirates, not the other way around. Stop pirating, DRM stops making sense and therefore being used by developers to protect their software.

And don't believe that 'ah if the games were cheaper, blah blah' BS. People will pirate ANYTHING (even if it costs only $1) if they think they can get away with it, and will then simply rationalize their actions with some kind of BS excuse so they can look at themselves in the mirror and not feel bad. This is an attitude that can only be changed by social pressure (i.e.; the whole society looking down on software pirates as being no different than thieves) - and even then you will never be able to put a stop to it completely. Until then, people will just rationalize software piracy instead of facing the truth about what they are really doing.

I really don't wanna push this thread any further off the rails so ill keep my reply short
everyone of your arguments has been debunked over and over over again(no I will not google for you)

as much as certain people use flawed logic to attempt to present it as such, piracy is not theft it's never been theft it will never be the legal definition and you can kick and scream about it all that will not change, its why we have copyright law (which is badly broken and constantly abused)

I am for piracy for one simple reason it keeps vendors in check, the good vendors don't give it any thought. there product stands on its own without any help and they know people will support them

the greedy stupid ones ... there the ones that cry about it and there the ones that deserve to be pirated into non existence in fact I would much prefer they die a slow painful death and never make anouther game ever again, the gaming market is saturated enough nothing of value would be lost if battlefield or COD or no mans sky suddenly disappeared and nobody ever heard anything from there publisher/developer ever again
 
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So software piracy isn't theft?

Some claim software piracy isn't theft because no physical object was subtracted - by that reasoning, it's perfectly ok for person A to hire person B to mow their law and then refuse to pay them after the job is done - because, after all, no physical object is being taken from person B.

But it's not ok, of course. Call it whatever you want, but by not paying person B, person A is effectively forcefully taking from person B what is legitimately his: money that he will then use to feed himself and his family.

Behind any manufactured physical or digital object, and labor, is the very same thing: the energy someone spent manufacturing that object or performing said labor. THAT is what you are REALLY paying for, not the physical object itself.

To illustrate this, take a stone sculpture for instance: the stone that sculpture is made of is the same stone you can find everywhere in nature for free - but that is not what you are paying for. What you are paying for is the unique human creative energy that brought THAT particular sculpture into existence. And because every human being is unique, so is that sculpture. Likewise with software and any other intellectual property such as books, paintings, etc...

So, if a cracker enables other people to steal your goods, or the result of your labor, he is no different than someone who lock picks your front door and goes around announcing what he did so everyone else can get into your home and steal your stuff. As such, he deserves to be criminally prosecuted. In fact, I believe that starting to put crackers in jail would be a hundred times more effective (and more productive) than any DRM ever will.

As for DRM, I am as much against it as the next person, but some seem to forget that DRM came after the pirates, not the other way around. Stop pirating, DRM stops making sense and therefore being used by developers to protect their software.

And don't believe that 'ah if the games were cheaper, blah blah' BS. People will pirate ANYTHING (even if it costs only $1) if they think they can get away with it, and will then simply rationalize their actions with some kind of BS excuse so they can look at themselves in the mirror and not feel bad. This is an attitude that can only be changed by social pressure (i.e.; the whole society looking down on software pirates as being no different than thieves) - and even then you will never be able to put a stop to it completely. Until then, people will just rationalize software piracy instead of facing the truth about what they are really doing.

It's definitely theft.. but DRM has gotten out of hand. These people deserve all the piracy they get.. and more.

< Proud owner of a 4K Blu-Ray drive.. that doesn't work, except with an Intel GPU and Kaby Lake and HDCP.. AND Intel Software Extensions enabled in the BIOS (enabled.. not software controlled) AND you had this BIOS set up with the extensions WHEN you installed Windows from scratch. Only then can you use like ONE product (Cyberlink) to play your damn 4k discs you already paid for... on a drive you already paid for.
 

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It's definitely theft.. but DRM has gotten out of hand. These people deserve all the piracy they get.. and more.

< Proud owner of a 4K Blu-Ray drive.. that doesn't work, except with an Intel GPU and Kaby Lake and HDCP.. AND Intel Software Extensions enabled in the BIOS (enabled.. not software controlled) AND you had this BIOS set up with the extensions WHEN you installed Windows from scratch. Only then can you use like ONE product (Cyberlink) to play your damn 4k discs you already paid for... on a drive you already paid for.

again no it isn't not legally not practically, morally maby depends on the person and the pov given the level of continuous abuse by vendors I am gonna side with No

HDCP has been completely broken for so many years thats a pretty thin point

again it keeps the vendors in check and it keeps the bs to a minimum well maybe not a minimum but its leverage

it all goes back to what the pirate bay said years ago when you stop treating your customers as potential criminals and treat them as customers, you don't have half the problem people respect you and like your products and that = sales

in short vendors need to stop fighting back and then the war would be over, there fighting a lost cause and all they are doing is increasing the casualties

why ask you do the vendors need to be the ones that put down there virtual laser rifles, because they escalated it and they continue to screw there customers over AND OVER AND OVER with underwhelming over hyped products that aren't worth half there asking prices in a fair share of cases

agree with it or not pirates are the good guys trying to do the 'right' thing in a world where the people that are supposed to be doing right are doing wrong .... Mostly as with all things exceptions apply
 
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again no it isn't not legally not practically, morally maby depends on the person and the pov given the level of continuous abuse by vendors I am gonna side with No

HDCP has been completely broken for so many years thats a pretty thin point

again it keeps the vendors in check and it keeps the bs to a minimum well maybe not a minimum but its leverage

it all goes back to what the pirate bay said years ago when you stop treating your customers as potential criminals and treat them as customers, you don't have half the problem people respect you and like your products and that = sales

in short vendors need to stop fighting back and then the war would be over, there fighting a lost cause and all they are doing is increasing the casualties

why ask you do the vendors need to be the ones that put down there virtual laser rifles, because they escalated it and they continue to screw there customers over AND OVER AND OVER with underwhelming over hyped products that aren't worth half there asking prices in a fair share of cases

agree with it or not pirates are the good guys trying to do the 'right' thing in a world where the people that are supposed to be doing right are doing wrong .... Mostly as with all things exceptions apply

I forgot to mention that I STILL can't watch 4k/HDR options on Netflix when using Windows... for some retarded reason. Even though the same service enables it on my Smart TV app.

But yeah, I'm one of the casualities. I happily pay for things.. but they still have to be difficult either way. And while I don't support piracy myself, like I said, they deserve what's coming to them and more.

As for games, I'm not sure how much it affects performance, but I'm very dilligent and OCD-ish about what gets installed in my computer. So I hate this too.
 

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Theft requires the robbed to be short something, which they aren't. Copying data is what computers do by design.

DRM is malware with the express intent to make other software not work as intended. It leads to more refunds, angry customer service tickets, and lost repeat sales than it offsets in terms of denying pirates access for a year at the most.

The vast majority of pirates are also in places with low GDP where the game at retail price can be a whole days worth or more of salary. I don't understand why publishers don't remove the DRM and replace it with a system instead that serializes all of the games and figures out which installs are unauthorized. It reports the unauthorized install to the publisher and the publisher writes that copy off as a charitable contribution.


As for games, I'm not sure how much it affects performance, but I'm very dilligent and OCD-ish about what gets installed in my computer. So I hate this too.
Dragon Age Origins and Hitman come to mind. If you lose internet access and those games decide to phone home, too bad, so sad, you're done playing the game until ET's finger works again. Even in Hitman, you're dragging a body or something when it decides to phone home, you'll drop the body so you have to grab it again.

DRM sucks man. It punishes everyone. HDCP is just another flavor of DRM invented to make the film and TV industry happy (to the detriment of everyone not them).
 
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As for games being expensive, yes, they are. But a lot cost a huge amount to make, therefore, driving up costs.
Just look at cinema/theatre costs. It's all the same.

It is not. Do you remember cinema/theatre the years just BEFORE piracy went rampant? It was daylight robbery, and prices are much more reasonable today. I'm not going to say piracy was beneficial in any way. When piracy was not an issue costs were going up for no reason. Driving people who had no problem paying before the ever increasing hikes to piracy.
 
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I am for piracy for one simple reason it keeps vendors in check, the good vendors don't give it any thought. there product stands on its own without any help and they know people will support them

As I said, people come up with the most incredible excuses to justify how what they are doing isn't wrong - some, like you, will even twist it in such a way that they turn something that is clearly wrong into a good thing (in their own minds only, of course).

You even managed to somehow put the blame for software piracy on the software vendors themselves! Bravo! That little gem of yours above REALLY proves my point, thank you. :)

If you want to read about software piracy, read the following exhaustive, unbiased, and incredible analysis on the effects of software piracy I ever had the pleasure to read. It also debunks all the arguments software pirates use to justify their wrong-doing while still managing to remain unbiased (EDIT: the article, not the pirates lol) - not an easy feat:

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html
 
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Those DRM idiots seem to fail to understand over and over Piracy of software it's NOT the main responsible for the descrease of sales. Not by a loooooong shot. If you cannot pirate a software, that doesn't mean the guy will just buy it instead, lol. It mean he would just simply not use it. There are literraly thousands of games out there, it's not like the offer is limited. Nowadays people will only pay if the product is good enough, or they will buy it, chech it first, and if it's crap ask for a refund. For a pirate, you just download it, confirm it's crap, and delete it.
SAME f#$%g thing!!
 

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I mean, the only companies that use DRM are those who release bad games and want to maximize the profit on the first 2 weeks of the release to be sure they have full cash before a crack goes out.

Every game I've downloaded in the past, I've bought them if I loved them. Hellblade for example, I wouldn't have paid full price for a game from an unknown company.
I’m with you, don’t like DRM one bit. But to claim that a game having drm is because it is a bad game is lunacy. A bad game is what makes a game bad, not the wrapping. Plenty of good games have unfortunately had DRM.

As to Hellblade, Ninja Theory is far from an unknown company.
 
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Or just admit that Denuvo is useless garbage like every single other protection and game developers should start treating gamers as customers and not as thieves by default.
I've been saying this for years. GOG has been proving it for more than a decade.
So, Denuvo, buzz off. We don't want you around.
Agreed. Denuvo and their ilk need to go the way of the the dinosaurs.
They should have hired him. Waste...
Kinda proves how utterly moronic they are.
If someone creates code to give access to a product without paying for it, it's kind of obvious what could happen. Whether you support Denuvo or not, it's theft.
You've missed the purpose and the point of cracking DRM. It is not to support piracy, it is to support liberty and freedom to purchasers of games that might not otherwise play reliably or at all because of idiotic DRM.

@JcRabbit Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. Your narrow-minded moral platitudes echo the game publisher's who use DRM, which do not concern us. We gamers care about the broad effective moralities such as user rights(the right to play games we've paid for when we choose without limitation). You are preaching an ethic proven to be useless, a waste of time and resources.

I predict the fallout from this very foolish move is that the hacking/cracking communities are going to go dark web then declare all out war on Denuvo and the DRM industry as a whole. Publishers had better pucker their back-sides, because it's only big sand-paper shafted nastiness from here.
 
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Kinda proves how utterly moronic they are.

So, what you are saying is that we should reward thieves by giving them jobs in law enforcement lol.

How you guys fail to understand how twisted that reasoning is, is totally beyond me.

You've missed the purpose and the point of cracking DRM. It is not to support piracy, it is to support liberty and freedom to purchasers of games that might not otherwise play reliably or at all because of idiotic DRM.

So crackers are 'freedom fighters' now? lol. Proves without a doubt that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Look, all your talk about defending software piracy would STOP ABRUPTLY the very SECOND something YOU spent a long time sweating blood and tears to create got cracked and pirated.

I can already picture it: 'But, but... I am one of the GOOD guys! Why are they doing this to me?! THIEVES! <SHOCK>'.

It's very easy to defend software piracy when you only have to gain from it and nothing to lose. But the very nanosecond it affects YOUR income (instead of someone else's) then it is, of course, a VERY different story. Unfortunately it's the kind of thing most people won't really understand until it affects them personally.

Pirates and crackers are not the 'good guys', and they don't really care who the good and the bad guys in the industry are either, they go after EVERYTHING.

@JcRabbit Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Sure I am. You're the one saying we should reward criminals for their criminal activity and I am the one embarrassing myself? Go read the article I linked to above, if you don't suffer from ADD.
 
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So, what you are saying is that we should reward thieves by giving them jobs in law enforcement lol.
How you guys fail to understand how twisted that reasoning is, is totally beyond me.

Go read the article I linked to above, if you don't suffer from ADD.
Perhaps your head is too firmly planted between your cheeks to understand others reasoning, also ADD has nothing to do with reading or comprehension skills, Google is your friend, your thoughts aren't!
 
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So, what you are saying is that we should reward thieves by giving them jobs in law enforcement lol. How you guys fail to understand how twisted that reasoning is, is totally beyond me.
Not all hackers are thieves. Not even most.
So crackers are 'freedom fighters' now?
Absolutely! They always have been to a degree. DRM limits user rights. Crackers do their thing in an attempt to restore those rights, by force. Perfect example of freedom fighting.
Proves without a doubt that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
Interesting point. There are many that consider DRM to be little more than digital terrorism. What an excellent perspective.
Look, all your talk about defending software piracy would STOP ABRUPTLY the very SECOND something YOU spent a long time sweating blood and tears to create got cracked and pirated.
It's very easy to defend software piracy when you only have to gain from it and nothing to lose. But the very nanosecond it affects YOUR income (instead of someone else's) then it is, of course, a VERY different story. Unfortunately it's the kind of thing most people won't really understand until it affects them personally.
Would you like cheese with your whine? Any game worth buying will sell very well. Go take a close look at the way GOG operates. No DRM, excellent sales history and very low piracy. You were saying?
Sure I am.
And you're continuing too.
You're the one saying we should reward criminals for their criminal activity and I am the one embarrassing myself?
Yup, that's what I'm saying.. Noticed you skipped over the rest of the point's I made. No response for those, eh? Well done sub-genius.
 
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Yup, that's what I'm saying.. Noticed you skipped over the rest of the point's I made. No response for those, eh? Well done sub-genius.

I'm starting with this quote, because you didn't address any of the points I made before either. And stop with the name calling - I'm calling out attitudes, not calling you names personally. It will only make you look bad if you continue because I will not be provoqued to respond in kind. :p

Anyway, you're on. :)

Not all hackers are thieves..

True. Your point being?

Not all pick lockers are thieves, some actually do it for an honest living - a skill necessary and useful when someone forgets their keys. But this is because CONSENT is given by the property owner. If you crack an application (i.e.; by pass the locks) without the consent of the legit owner, then you are a criminal and a thief.

Interesting point. There are many that consider DRM to be little more than digital terrorism. What an excellent perspective.

Again you keep conveniently forgetting that DRM came AFTER software piracy, not the other way around.

What you seem to be implying is that an home owner has no legit right to defend his own house from burglars. In other words, software developers should just quietly take it up the *ss and do nothing about it.

Look, I dislike DRM as much as you do (although to tell you the truth, it hasn't interfered with any of the games I like to play in a VERY long time and that is fine with me) but I understand why it is necessary. In an ideal world Just closing the door to a bank safe should be enough - but this is not an ideal world and so it isn't - your lock must be secure enough to prevent most if not all thieves from robbing it.

In the case of games, even if it deters thieves from breaking the lock for only a few days or weeks, that will already help - because a lot of people who cannot pirate the game on day 0 will actually buy it instead. And that blows another theory out of the water too, that nothing is taken because people would not buy it anyway. That's BS. Some would not, true, but many would! So the loss is real, it is just hard to quantify.

Would you like cheese with your whine? Any game worth buying will sell very well. Go take a close look at the way GOG operates. No DRM, excellent sales history and very low piracy. You were saying?

Yes, a little cheese would be nice, thank you. :)

I am saying that those games sell very well DESPITE software piracy, not BECAUSE of it. That is not the point, what you are saying is a fallacy anyway. How many MORE units would that game sell if it couldn't be pirated?

Whichever way you try to distort the issue, there is one thing you cannot deny: THERE IS a loss because of software piracy. And that is money that game developers would have received otherwise, so money that belongs to THEM and not to the users. Ergo, money that was TAKEN/STOLEN from them without their consent.

Did you read the article already, by the way? You can start by responding to all the legitimate points that article makes.
 
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Not all pick lockers are thieves, some actually do it for an honest living - a skill necessary and useful when someone forgets their keys. But this is because CONSENT is given by the property owner. If you crack an application (i.e.; by pass the locks) without the consent of the legit owner, then you are a criminal and a thief.
By purchasing a game, does that not make the purchaser the owner?
By voiding ones right to make a personal copy they have taken away a person's legal rights.
The only technicality they can get the "hacker" with is if he onsold copies.
 
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By purchasing a game, does that not make the purchaser the owner?

Depends on what you are trying to say. You can only own 'objects', not intellectual property. So, for instance, if you buy a book you own the medium in which that book was printed, but not the actual *contents* of the book.

By voiding ones right to make a personal copy they have taken away a person's legal rights.

"Copyright law does not contain any caveat that allows unauthorized parties to make personal copies of copyrighted products. However, under the doctrine of "fair use," individuals may be permitted to make backup copies or archival copies of some materials as long as certain conditions are met. Creating a copy of a copyrighted work for your own ease of use is likely to be considered copyright infringement. But if you are making a copy so that you may use a copyrighted product in case the original is stolen, damaged or destroyed, your conduct may fall within the doctrine of fair use." - https://info.legalzoom.com/copyright-law-making-personal-copies-22200.html

In the old days you could also photocopy books to keep a 'backup' copy, but nobody ever did because it was just too expensive. If you lost the book you were NOT entitled to a 'free' copy either - you could always just buy another one.

Anyway, this kind of is a mute point with Steam and digital game distribution becoming the norm these days - if your hard drive crashes you just download the game again.

The only technicality they can get the "hacker" with is if he onsold copies.

A hacker can still be sued. The only reason he isn't put in jail is because it is still considered a civil offense and not a criminal one - which is a mistake, if you ask me. Anyway, laws can and are changed all the time and they evolve over time to keep up with new technology - although very slowly sometimes.
 
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Well, like it or not, crackers are the reason why we can play LEGALLY PURCHASED! games from decade or two ago even today, because they stopped working because of said dumb protections and crackers removing them give us that ability. Because developers don't really give a shit. They stuffed their wallets and don't care if someone wants to play that game they paid for later in time. So, who is here to blame, devs/publishers who intentionally screw up a game with retarded protections or a gamer removing protection to even be able to use what they rightfully own?

We also often used NO-CD patches/cracks so we didn't have to stick stupid CD/DVD's into drive every time we wanted to play them. For LEGALLY PURCHASED! games.

Other option is GOG who treats us as customers and not thieves by default. Which is why I always prefer buying from them if possible.

I just can't go past endless idiocies when I bought a game and was then punished for it because I had to deal with stupid DRM where pirates who actually stole it had NO PROBLEMS because games just worked fine.
 

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The people that reverse engineer often do it for sport: it's a puzzle with a reward. If they solve this very complicated puzzle, at the end, they can use it. Doesn't matter if it is emulating consoles on other hardware, circumventing software copy protection, or even extracting music out of proprietary archives so they can be enjoyed whenever.

As long as there is evidence of a "clean room" reverse engineer, it's completely legal to do (Nightdive Studio does this to make ports of games). I think it was a Megaman game where they emulated the console it ran on to the letter so all of the glitches in the original exist in the port. As far as I know, Nintendo didn't give them their blessing to emulate their hardware but Capcom gave their blessing to restore the game.

"Right to repair" should extend to games broken by DRM too.


Let me clear: the act of reverse engineering DRM is very different from the "piracy groups" that go beyond that: distributing the software in its entirety (often in addition to the means to circumvent the DRM). That breaks so many copyright and intellectual property laws it isn't even funny.
 
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We also often used NO-CD patches/cracks so we didn't have to stick stupid CD/DVD's into drive every time we wanted to play them. For LEGALLY PURCHASED! games.

Other option is GOG who treats us as customers and not thieves by default. Which is why I always prefer buying from them if possible.

Please understand, I am NOT defending DRM or other schemes that greatly inconvenience legit users - personally I think doing that is also a major mistake and I HATED with a passion having to insert the original CD on the CD drive every time I wanted to play a game. Thank God those times are now long gone, at least for me, as I now buy all my games from Steam, and Steam and Denuvo DRM does not inconvenience me in any way, shape or form.

DRM, however, is a CONSEQUENCE of software piracy and does not invalidate that pirating and cracking software IS wrong.

If you (or anyone else) want to pirate software, please go ahead, just man up to what you are doing and don't pretend or fool yourself that what you are doing is good or that you are doing it because you want to 'stick it to the man'. The reality is that you are doing it for your own personal gain in detriment of the gain of others, the legit owners and creators of the content you're currently enjoying to play.
 
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I'm calling out attitudes, not calling you names personally.
Oh? That's how it seemed. You were being subtle, I was being direct.
If you crack an application (i.e.; by pass the locks) without the consent of the legit owner, then you are a criminal and a thief.
Cracking a software package to make it usable or less restricting is not a crime, it is a right, protected by several laws. When you pay for a software package you are not renting or leasing it, you are buying it. And that copy of the software becomes the ethical, legal and moral property of the purchaser. That perspective is supported by dozens of examples of legal code and case law. You sir are incorrect. Only when such a "crack" is used to pirate a software package does it become a crime, but then the only crime is the stealing of the software. The crack itself is not unlawful. Using it to steal is. Comprehend the difference?
Again you keep conveniently forgetting that DRM came AFTER software piracy, not the other way around.
Yes, and what good has it done? Has piracy disappeared? No, it hasn't worsened either. DRM is pointless as it does little to stop thieves. What it does is make life difficult and unpleasant for everyone else, you know, the honest folks. There is not a single argument that can conclusively prove the DRM has had an overall positive benefit to the world. None.
software developers should just quietly take it up the *ss and do nothing about it.
What terrible and misguided analogy! Software devs are not homeowners defending a home. They are producers of a product for sale attempting to stop thieves from stealing. They will never succeed. Thieves will always find a way. And again, there are better schools of thought and ideals..
I am saying that those games sell very well DESPITE software piracy, not BECAUSE of it.
Yet another pointless statement.
THERE IS a loss because of software piracy. And that is money that game developers would have received otherwise, so money that belongs to THEM and not to the users. Ergo, money that was TAKEN/STOLEN from them without their consent.
That assumes that the thieves in question would otherwise pay for the software they steal. Most would not. So how many potential sales have they actually lost? Hmm? Your argument is without merit because it is without logic. It is also without precedent.
The only reason he isn't put in jail is because it is still considered a civil offense and not a criminal one - which is a mistake, if you ask me.
Fortunately, no one is/was asking you.
 
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Well, GOG kinda proves DRM isn't a result of piracy. It's just greed. Besides, gotta love the "pirated copy automatically means lost revenue". Reality is, most pirates wouldn't have bought it anyway, meaning you're literally not losing anything. However, these people talking about it may such people into buying a game who they weren't even aware of, making these pirates a free PR. But god forbid anyone ever even dares thinking in such direction...
 
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Oh? That's how it seemed. You were being subtle, I was being direct.

There is a huge difference between being 'direct' and being rude to others, but there are also some misguided people who confuse one with the other.

Cracking a software package to make it usable or less restricting is not a crime, it is a right, protected by several laws.

Oh cool. Please name which laws protect such an action.

When you pay for a software package you are not renting or leasing it, you are buying it. And that copy of the software becomes the ethical, legal and moral property of the purchaser.

That copy of the software 'as is'. You are not allowed to modify, re-sell or distribute it. That is the agreement you accepted when you purchased the software.

Try modifying a work of software and then passing it as your own work to see how well that goes - you'll be sued for copyright infringement. So the 'intellectual property' is NOT yours to do as you please, as you seem to be implying. Only the medium in which that intellectual property is expressed is yours.

That perspective is supported by dozens of examples of legal code and case law.

Name a few.

Only when such a "crack" is used to pirate a software package does it become a crime, but then the only crime is the stealing of the software. The crack itself is not unlawful. Using it to steal is. Comprehend the difference?

LOL. No wait, please explain it to me like I'm 5 years old, will you, daddy? :p

Cut the crap, you can be better than that. Now, getting back to the point in question:

You're trying to hang on to technicalities when you know very well that cracking software and then making that crack available to others is AT THE VERY LEAST immoral. But you are also wrong about it not being illegal (as I said, laws are slowly catching up to the new technologies):

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the act of circumventing access control a crime whether or not a copyright violation has occurred. It doesn’t actually matter whether you are the one who did the actual cracking or not… installing it on your pc when the software should have access control is enough.

Yes, and what good has it done? Has piracy disappeared? No, it hasn't worsened either.

Do you even understand how wrong it is what you are saying? By the same reasoning, we shouldn't have law enforcement or put criminals in prison because doing so has not made crime disappear.

Crime, like software piracy, will never go away. All you can do is try to make sure it stays on controlled levels.

DRM is pointless as it does little to stop thieves. What it does is make life difficult and unpleasant for everyone else, you know, the honest folks. There is not a single argument that can conclusively prove the DRM has had an overall positive benefit to the world. None.

Yeah, game developers are stupid people who take a secret and sadistic pleasure from inconveniencing legit users. They even pay Denuvo and others like them thousands of dollars for technologies that don't work.

OF COURSE IT WORKS. It won't work forever, but it does work and every day without a crack is money in the bank. If DRM didn't work, nobody would be using it by now.

What terrible and misguided analogy! Software devs are not homeowners defending a home. They are producers of a product for sale attempting to stop thieves from stealing. They will never succeed. Thieves will always find a way. And again, there are better schools of thought and ideals..

Yes, the old ideology vs. the real world. Problem being that the real world trumps ideology every single time.

So because they will never succeed entirely they should stop trying? Despite the fact that DRM does help sales?

Look, just go read that article already, it also discusses arguments such as yours:

"Many people will blurt out what they believe is the ultimate argument against copy protection and DRM: "It doesn't work!". This claim is borne out of the misconception that the games industry is using copy protection or DRM measures to completely eliminate piracy, which is absurd. It's common knowledge both within the gaming industry and outside it that piracy cannot be stopped completely. If properly motivated, and given enough time, pirates can and will break through virtually any software or hardware-based defence mechanism. The rationale behind the use of copy protection and DRM is much the same as the rationale behind the use of physical locks: to increase the complexity, time, effort and risk involved in attempting to overcome the protection, in the hopes of discouraging 'casual' pirates and thieves. In other words whether a physical lock or a digital lock, the aim is essentially to keep honest people honest, not to present an impenetrable barrier. "

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_8.html

That assumes that the thieves in question would otherwise pay for the software they steal. Most would not. So how many potential sales have they actually lost? Hmm? Your argument is without merit because it is without logic. It is also without precedent.

Wait, you rephrase exactly what I wrote and admit that SOME WOULD and then you say that my argument is without logic?! lol

It is EXACTLY as I said: some would, the problem is quantifying how many.

It does not matter, what matters is that *some* would (even by your own admission) so money is effectively being stolen from the legit content creators.

Well, GOG kinda proves DRM isn't a result of piracy. It's just greed. Besides, gotta love the "pirated copy automatically means lost revenue". Reality is, most pirates wouldn't have bought it anyway, meaning you're literally not losing anything. However, these people talking about it may such people into buying a game who they weren't even aware of, making these pirates a free PR. But god forbid anyone ever even dares thinking in such direction...

Look, just go read that article I already mentioned here several times, it is unbiased, very well written, covers all these arguments and it analyses the issue with facts, figures and examples:

"Economic Loss

The argument is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product. This is not the same as saying that every pirated copy is a lost sale. What it actually means is that firstly some proportion of the people who are pirating a game would have bought it in the absence of piracy. Equally as important however is the fact that even those who would never have paid the full purchase price for one reason or another may still have paid some lower amount to purchase and play the game which they pirated. This is because by the very act of obtaining and playing a game, they've clearly demonstrated that they place some value on that game. After all, if something is truly 'worthless', consumers won't bother to obtain or use it in the first place, regardless of whether it's free or not. Even if a game only gives the pirate a few hours of enjoyment, that's still worth something. In the absence of piracy they may have purchased the game at a discount several months after its release, or bought it second-hand for example. So the existence of piracy results in some loss of income to PC game developers, publishers, retailers and even other consumers.

Pure economic loss is actually very difficult to calculate in precise terms because it's largely hypothetical - there's no way of knowing exactly how many more units of a particular product would have sold if piracy did not exist, or how much money various people would have paid over time to buy discounted or second-hand copies in the absence of piracy for example. However examination of piracy figures combined with sales figures for similar products which are less affected by piracy does provide some indication of the scale of loss."

....

"Piracy & Marketing

One of the economic arguments in support of piracy is that it imparts benefits to the producers because the mass distribution of pirated copies of a product effectively provides valuable free publicity and marketing via word of mouth. This can be particularly useful for low budget releases which don't have large marketing budgets. For example if a hesitant purchaser obtains a pirated copy of a little-known game and then loves it, there's no doubt they're much more likely to encourage their friends to get that game. This argument is logically sound, in that there is indeed a great deal of power in the way in which widespread positive word of mouth can influence the perceptions and decisions of the general public, and propel an otherwise unknown or underrated game to greater popularity.

However the argument deliberately ignores one fundamental problem: there's no evidence to suggest that positive word of mouth from pirates results in anything other than more people pirating a particularly popular game. After all, if a person can tell others about a pirated game he likes, he can just as easily tell them how and where to obtain it illegally, or give them a copy for example. So it's unclear as to how much this additional positive word of mouth due to piracy actually results in increased sales rather than simply increased piracy. Looking at the data in the next two sections, we can see that the more popular a game, the significantly higher the number of people pirating it, though sales may also benefit as well. So the net effect of this claim is unclear."

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_3.html
 
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The people that reverse engineer often do it for sport: it's a puzzle with a reward. If they solve this very complicated puzzle, at the end, they can use it. Doesn't matter if it is emulating consoles on other hardware, circumventing software copy protection, or even extracting music out of proprietary archives so they can be enjoyed whenever.

As long as there is evidence of a "clean room" reverse engineer, it's completely legal to do (Nightdive Studio does this to make ports of games). I think it was a Megaman game where they emulated the console it ran on to the letter so all of the glitches in the original exist in the port. As far as I know, Nintendo didn't give them their blessing to emulate their hardware but Capcom gave their blessing to restore the game.

"Right to repair" should extend to games broken by DRM too.


Let me clear: the act of reverse engineering DRM is very different from the "piracy groups" that go beyond that: distributing the software in its entirety (often in addition to the means to circumvent the DRM). That breaks so many copyright and intellectual property laws it isn't even funny.

That act of reverse engineering geekery is what gave birth to a lot of computing. It might be shady at times, but you can't suppress it. It's part of the nature of learning about machines. I mean, Steve Jobs was a phone cracker at one point. And game developers like Todd Howard admitted to cracking games when they were young. I'd even say this compulsion has nothing to do with computers. Any mechanic or handyman is first just rigging things and doing their own little hacks.
 
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There is no evidence that pirated copy encourages purchase just as pirated copy doesn't mean loss of revenue/income.

Piracy was one of only means of even obtaining games years ago for me and kids mostly do it because they have no purchasing power. I mean, how many parents would pay 60€ for endless supplies of games to kids? Not many. But pirated copies could be obtained no questions asked from parents and no whining for wallet/credit card.

Fast forward 2+ decades and I've basically purchased almost all games I've had pirated in the past. A lot of them I still haven't played yet, but I've bought them because I have my own income now, I don't have to justify it to anyone (parents) and it just felt like a right thing to do. I also haven't pirated a single game for ages thanks to my own income and global availability of games via Steam/GOG and the likes. And because I value honesty despite pirating circumstances from the past, I insist buying from GOG whenever possible. They respect me with zero DRM policy and I respect their trust by never sharing any of installers with anyone, even though you can easily just copy them with USB drive or upload them somewhere.

GOG is well aware people pirate their games still, but they keep on building with zero DRM trust policy and huge number of people greatly appreciate and respect that. Me included. For me, knowing games will work for unforeseeable future without having to botch therm with cracks is what is most important. I mean, I still play NFS3 from 1998 here and there which we had to hack on our own to play today...
 
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