AMD 7nm "Vega" by December, Not a Die-shrink of "Vega 10"

[yogurt_21]

I get it "Navi" as in we will navi make this gpu available for desktop gamers, navi.

Navi is supposed to be for the PS5 I thought... so what no love for desktops?

 

[Flyordie]

True. But it was never a healthy market to begin with, when ATI fell you could already see this scenario. Ironically most GPU makers have themselves to blame for failing; if you dont score designnwins and capitalize on them, you just lose. Its a tough industry but also one where real progress and innovation gets rewarded well.

I dont think this is even up to consumers really. We get the worst chips on each wafer!

Unless you got a Liquid RX Vega or get a Threadripper CPU. lol

 

[Prima.Vera]

I like all the sad comments here. They prove one simple thing: people have money to throw at stuff that they don't need. I mean, look at how many people own a fast Pascal card which can play everything at either 1080P or 4K with 60FPS and complain about high prices for Turing cards. Why do you even need something better if you can play everything? To feed the never ending obsession of having the best/latest hardware parts.

I have a very expensive GTX 1080 card and I can barely hit in the latest games 40-50fps on 3440x1440 on my 100Hz capable monitor. You do understand the frustration on wanting a better card to pass the 75fps barrier at least....

 

[Nkd]

And AMD, once again, leaves an entire segment to nvidia for a third generation in a row.

AMD sould just sell radeon by this point. They can do really well with GPUs, or CPUs, but not both. Sell Radeon to somebody that can actually produce decent GPUs. Vega was a year late and many watts too high, and is about to get eclipsed by a new generation of GPUs from nvidia.

You wouldn't want AMD selling GPU division at this point when they earned crap load more revenue from CPUs and GPUs (due to mining demand). AMD Is finally having the budget to expedite GPU development. Do you hear the silence? Yep that is actually a good thing. Lisa has them laser focused not on marketing or anything but on actual development I believe. She has hired some smart people and even shifted some of Ryzen brains to fine tune GPUs at RTG. So she means business. Mark my word since they are succeeding on the CPU side I think they will come out swinging in a few years in the GPU department. Word is they are pulling all the muscle to get the next gen architecture out as soon as they can. They already have a fast track on GPU. I think Navi will be a home run with mainstream users and then they will bring out true next gen part soon after that I believe.

I get it "Navi" as in we will navi make this gpu available for desktop gamers, navi.

Navi is supposed to be for the PS5 I thought... so what no love for desktops?

thats not what was said. Its said they developed Navi in partnership with Sony. So a big pool of engineers were devoted to navi to work along sony engineers for Navi. So Navi could have some tricks up its sleeve. Depends on how far they can push it. I think Navi is probably already done though. The next gen architecture that was labeled "next gen" in their road map, lol! It's suppose to ready in 2020 I think. But They might be able to push it out sooner since they have more budget to throw at it now.

 

[AlwaysHope]

Lisa Su is a better CEO than most give her credit for.

You wouldn't want AMD selling GPU division at this point when they earned crap load more revenue from CPUs and GPUs (due to mining demand). AMD Is finally having the budget to expedite GPU development. Do you hear the silence? Yep that is actually a good thing. Lisa has them laser focused not on marketing or anything but on actual development I believe. She has hired some smart people and even shifted some of Ryzen brains to fine tune GPUs at RTG. So she means business. Mark my word since they are succeeding on the CPU side I think they will come out swinging in a few years in the GPU department. Word is they are pulling all the muscle to get the next gen architecture out as soon as they can. They already have a fast track on GPU. I think Navi will be a home run with mainstream users and then they will bring out true next gen part soon after that I believe.



thats not what was said. Its said they developed Navi in partnership with Sony. So a big pool of engineers were devoted to navi to work along sony engineers for Navi. So Navi could have some tricks up its sleeve. Depends on how far they can push it. I think Navi is probably already done though. The next gen architecture that was labeled "next gen" in their road map, lol! It's suppose to ready in 2020 I think. But They might be able to push it out sooner since they have more budget to throw at it now.

Agreed, Lisa Su is a better CEO than most giver her credit for.

 

[NeuralNexus]

Lisa Su is a better CEO than most give her credit for.



Agreed, Lisa Su is a better CEO than most giver her credit for.

Her Uncle is Jensen Huang, so I guess she looks up to him for direction.

 

[evernessince]

And AMD, once again, leaves an entire segment to nvidia for a third generation in a row.

AMD sould just sell radeon by this point. They can do really well with GPUs, or CPUs, but not both. Sell Radeon to somebody that can actually produce decent GPUs. Vega was a year late and many watts too high, and is about to get eclipsed by a new generation of GPUs from nvidia.

I wouldn't say that. Going from 14nm to 7nm should give Vega a significant performance boost.

 

[R0H1T]

I wouldn't say that. Going from 14nm to 7nm should give Vega a significant performance boost.

Yes It will, now only if they'd release a GPU for gaming.

 

[Zubasa]

Her Uncle is Jensen Huang, so I guess she looks up to him for direction.

Lets just hope for F's sake she doesn't look to him for pricing direction

 

[R0H1T]

Lets just hope for F's sake she doesn't look to him for pricing direction

Or Ferraris & leather jackets?

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I get it "Navi" as in we will navi make this gpu available for desktop gamers, navi.

Navi is supposed to be for the PS5 I thought... so what no love for desktops?

We're getting PS5 scraps. Oh the hue-manatee!

Her Uncle is Jensen Huang, so I guess she looks up to him for direction.

They're distant cousins.

 

[Vya Domus]

I like how it's doom and gloom because the very highest end isn't dirt cheap and people "need" to get the very highest end every single time one is released.

You seriously think the 2060, 2050 and whatever else are going to be as cheap as they used to be ? The massive price hike is going to trickle down to all of their products.

It's absolutely baffling that you wouldn't see this as an issue.

 

[londiste]

You are presenting the principles of pricing and marketing products as a philosophical question. Whether the product naming and line should be changed is not a technical issue but pure marketing. I am sure marketing departments are working hard to figure out the practical aspects of all this.

There are limits to how products can be priced. Given what Nvidia's 20-series technically is, I strongly suspect they would make loss at last-gen prices. The same applies to AMD. If they could have sold Vegas maybe $50 cheaper these would have been reasonably successful, instead Vegas were and are in large part available for above MSRP. They simply are not able to do that if they want to make some profit.

 

[Vya Domus]

We're getting PS5 scraps.

What AMD will make for the next generation of consoles is much more relevant than people think. Particularly what are they going to do about all this ray-tracing stuff. Will they include dedicated hardware for it ? If not, all this will likely remain into obscurity, RTX isn't as easy to throw into a game like Gameworks is. When the next generation of game engines will be written and the hardware for ray-tracing is absent from consoles it's probably not going to go well for all of this stuff. Nvidia can't keep persuading developers to work extra just for one platform forever.

I am hoping that DXR is a sign of the possibility that the next generation of consoles does in fact have this capability.

 

[londiste]

RTX isn't as easy to throw into a game like Gameworks is.

Why is that? Nvidia seems to have a fairly comprehensive software package for RTX that developers were able to put into game rather quickly. Both Nvidia and Devs have said their RTX software is easy enough to integrate into both games as well as game engines. Didn't DICE (Battlefield V dev) say they got RTX and cards less than two weeks ago?

Based on what we know, RTX is an implementation of DXR. Major engine developers have already or are implementing this into their engines. Adoption remains an open question but more in terms of adoption speed, no whether raytacing-based solutions are the future.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

What AMD will make for the next generation of consoles is much more relevant than people think. Particularly what are they going to do about all this ray-tracing stuff. Will they include dedicated hardware for it ? If not, all this will likely remain into obscurity, RTX isn't as easy to throw into a game like Gameworks is. When the next generation of game engines will be written and the hardware for ray-tracing is absent from consoles it's probably not going to go well for all of this stuff. Nvidia can't keep persuading developers to work extra just for one platform forever.

I am hoping that DXR is a sign of the possibility that the next generation of consoles does in fact have this capability.

There is 0% chance of ray tracing in any console in the next five years, probably ten years. A $1000, 250w card can barely manage it at 1080p. Sony/Microsoft want more like 100w (for the complete system) and 4K (because that's what people are buying).

I suspect what Navi will have is a dedicated scaler so the game can render at any resolution and get scaled to any resolution at virtually no cost. That's something PC gamers could use--especially if it is something can happen on the fly. If a game fails to deliver 30 fps at 1080p, for example, it can drop the renderer to 900p and scale it up to 1080p to give it an artificial frame rate boost. That's something consoles really need.

 

[Vya Domus]

Why is that?

This is why : https://www.techspot.com/news/76073-shadow-tomb-raider-unable-maintain-60fps-geforce-rtx.html I would also point out that it's not as flawless as it seems, visually. Crystal Dynamics also said this is supposedly "early work" and that the RTX feature will be added after release. What does all that tell you ? RTX takes a lot of time and effort to implement, Nvidia is doing a terrific job with their smoke and mirrors but they can't hide that fact completely.

Didn't DICE (Battlefield V dev) say they got RTX and cards less than two weeks ago?

And what does that tell you ? Nothing, the BFV demo was also sub 60 fps according to the people that saw it. Who the hell knows how much time does it take for a proper implementation, which clearly isn't in this case.

There is 0% chance of ray tracing in any console in the next five years, probably ten years. A $1000, 250w card can barely manage it at 1080p. Sony/Microsoft want more like 100w (for the complete system) and 4K (because that's what people are buying).

It's not impossible to get some dedicated hardware in there without destroying power consumption. I would also argue that ray-tracing is currently used in wasteful way, it would make much more sense to use this stuff for approximating volumes and then have a normal shadow pass where you can use that information for shading rather than having the entire shadow pass stage done through ray-tracing. That would offer a subtle improvement in visuals and it wouldn't be very expensive, I wouldn't completely discard the possibility of ray-tracing for the next generation of consoles.

 

[londiste]

It does not necessarily tell you otherwise either. Early builds of both games with new tech. Once both cards and games (or RT patch at least in case of SoTR) are out we will see how they fare.
According to some sources, even reviewer drivers are not really ready yet.

There is 0% chance of ray tracing in any console in the next five years, probably ten years. A $1000, 250w card can barely manage it at 1080p. Sony/Microsoft want more like 100w (for the complete system) and 4K (because that's what people are buying).

Xbox 360 went down from initial 180W power consumption to half that by the Slim version. Pretty much the same for PS3.
Both Xbox One and PS4 did target 110-120W but these are decidedly strange with their midrange hardware inside instead of state-of-the-art CPU/GPU that previous generations had. Xbox One X and PS4 pro are both in the range of 170-180W again.

I suspect what Navi will have is a dedicated scaler so the game can render at any resolution and get scaled to any resolution at virtually no cost. That's something PC gamers could use--especially if it is something can happen on the fly. If a game fails to deliver 30 fps at 1080p, for example, it can drop the renderer to 900p and scale it up to 1080p to give it an artificial frame rate boost. That's something consoles really need.

GPUs have had that for generations.
Do you mean hardware support for some advanced algorithm like checkerboard? Btw, DLSS is exactly that

 

[FordGT90Concept]

It's not impossible to get some dedicated hardware in there without destroying power consumption. I would also argue that ray-tracing is currently used in wasteful way, it would make much more sense to use this stuff for approximating volumes and then have a normal shadow pass where you can use that information for shading rather than having the entire shadow pass stage done through ray-tracing. That would offer a subtle improvement in visuals and it wouldn't be very expensive, I wouldn't completely discard the possibility of ray-tracing for the next generation of consoles.

This doesn't make any sense. RTRT performance is determined by number of rays cast per frame. The fewer the rays, the noisier the scene. What NVIDIA is doing is cutting back on the number of rays and using AI to denoise the result. When it comes to raytracings, shadows are simply the absence of light. They don't get special treatment like they do with rasterizing.

GCN Can't even match 1 Gray/s. RTX 2080 Ti does 10 Gray/s and the result is mediocre.

RTRT simply isn't AMD's focus. Literally no one is demanding it outside of the professional market and they already use Radeon Rays on Radeon Pro cards.

 

[londiste]

I would also argue that ray-tracing is currently used in wasteful way, it would make much more sense to use this stuff for approximating volumes and then have a normal shadow pass where you can use that information for shading rather than having the entire shadow pass stage done through ray-tracing. That would offer a subtle improvement in visuals and it wouldn't be very expensive, I wouldn't completely discard the possibility of ray-tracing for the next generation of consoles.

Just the opposite. What RTX as well as the entire current drive towards raytracing is extremely heavy optimization. The solutions are using raytracing (that is inherently wasteful) in the most optimal and efficient way possible.

What you describe is exactly how RTX does things. What raytracing provides here is both simplicity and accuracy. Raytraced shadow map is more accurate than usual methods and it allows doing more complex things the most simple way. When calculating shadow maps for many objects and many light sources, current ways tend to need multiple passes for some of these things and are running into performance bottlenecks fast. Raytracing does not really care.

 

[Vya Domus]

This doesn't make any sense. RTRT performance is determined by number of rays cast per frame. The fewer the rays, the noisier the scene. What NVIDIA is doing is cutting back on the number of rays and using AI to denoise the result. When it comes to raytracings, shadows are simply the absence of light. They don't get special treatment like they do with rasterizing.

GCN Can't even match 1 Gray/s. RTX 2080 Ti does 10 Gray/s and the result is mediocre.

What I am describing isn't pure ray-tracing, that's the point. For example current global illumination techniques already involve the use of rays to determine indirect lighting, you can use this new hardware to improve upon that rather than introducing a completely different pass. It's extremely wasteful performance wise and you are not even getting proper results.

 

[londiste]

What I am describing isn't pure ray-tracing, that's the point. For example current global illumination techniques already involve the use of rays to determine indirect lighting, you can use this new hardware to improve upon that rather than introduce a completely different pass. It's extremely wasteful performance wise and you are not even getting proper results.

Dude, this is EXACTLY what RTX does
Raytracing-based Global Illumination is one of the specific things Nvidia has been showcasing.
Full real-time raytracing is way beyond what current hardware can do.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

RTRT without faking it takes petaflops of compute power.

 

[Vya Domus]

Dude, this is EXACTLY what RTX does

It's simply isn't, RTX and DXR adds an additional stage just like when tessellation was introduced and then you have dedicated hardware to be used for that particular stage. These stages are independent and are intertwined with traditional shaders, RTX cannot be used to accelerate existing shading structures which is what I was saying would be more useful for the time being.

 

[londiste]

What do you mean? It replaces some existing things (lighting and shadowing are the most obvious ones here) and then works its result back into the traditional rendering pipeline.