Graphics Card Manufacturing Being Moved From China in Bid to Escape Import Tariffs - Price to Increase 5-10%

[R-T-B]

People like him and Vayra and a few others always point out negative things about the U.S.

Yeah, we are having some problems now in terms of social upheavel and it makes us an easy target when we act like we're the world police (and at times, we do). No violence yet but the social upheaval is there. There's no real denying that either. Still, I'd prefer politics were forbidden too. But if people aren't going to play that game, I at least try to be corteous. I think it helps productive discussion.

But sometimes it goes to far and I blow up so I hear you.

Where tho, may I ask, do we bash their countries? So no, my aggression is out now, and well justified.

...

It's been there. But it's mostly been at one country in particular. It starts with a V and is probably earned. Oh, and I've seen a lot of generic socialism bashing, frankly, but nothing aimed.

 

[StrayKAT]

Yeah, we are having some problems now in terms of social upheavel and it makes us an easy target when we act like we're the world police (and at times, we do). No violence yet but the social upheaval is there. There's no real denying that either. Still, I'd prefer politics were forbidden too. But if people aren't going to play that game, I at least try to be corteous. I think it helps productive discussion.

But sometimes it goes to far and I blow up so I hear you.



...

It's been there. But it's mostly been at one country in particular. It starts with a V and is probably earned. Oh, and I've seen a lot of generic socialism bashing, frankly, but nothing aimed.

I'll be the first to criticize the world police stuff. I just made a comment on it elsewhere. And as much as I laugh at Obama's economical policies, I voted for him precisely because I thought he'd stop the military/industrial complex's thirst for blood. Then the same propaganda played over again, about the evils of Gadaffi or _insert whatever here_. Now those countries are hellholes.

So yeah, bash away for that. Please. edit: Sorry.. that's the last of my politics here.

 

[Indra18]

Realy this crap circling on internet.. usa have small load of friends ; only vassals.. there is no place to selling us products after trade war start...
Chinese and brics have about 44% world population .. 60 % chinese production is already internal , they have byznis around world while usa loosing
india will have in 20 years same gdp like usa , now india buying load of Russian weapons systems.. and cooperation with pakistan and co to peace and
and more : Germany has surpassed the United States to become the leading car exporter to the China
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, right, and Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip ... has an acute recognition of the need to separate economics and politics in relations ... the cheaper andmore competitive the product is," Olenchenko explained. ... It's Up to German Business to Opt to Buy Russian Gas - Sigmar Gabriel.
Report: Long trade war would hurt US more than China ..
and Germany have repeatedly said that they support the Iran deal and want business ... grow more independent from the dollar and the U.S. economy, officials say. huhuuhuuu
The US Will Lose Its Trade War with China by Anatole Kaletsky ...
China added 53 gigawatt (GW) of solar power capacity, more
Mr Kempf urged US and China to negotiate a more feasible solution to end their ... He said: "The US and China urgently need to de-escalate the conflict and find ... us china trump trade wargermany tariffs businesses companies berlin ... "Once again, I urge China's leaders to take swift action to end their country's unfair trade ... yes block swift
Further to the publication of a notice of impending expiry ( 1 ), the Commission gives notice that the anti-dumping measure mentioned below will expire. This notice is published in accordance with Article 11(2) of Regulation (EU) 2016/1036 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 8 June 2016 on protection against dumped imports from countries not members of the European Union ( 2 )
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/new...inese-solar-panels-co2-fills-germanys-coffers
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article219037385.html
http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201809/21/WS5ba4f928a310c4cc775e79e0.html
Germany, EU urged to deepen cooperation with China
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-global-trade-war-hurt-080128951.html?guccounter=1
Simply swift attack is red ACE in european hands ... and + russia offer trade in Euro in last days is chess mate to pompeo pompedol

 

[DRDNA]

. And mods apparently are A-ok with this, despite the rules against politics. .

Actually I have spent a bit of time in meditation on this and believe this is a little experiment to see by the moderation team if TPU is mature enough to handle this very awkward type of debate...
i know that these types of chats are open to leaving people filled with hatred but I hope the TPU family can over come that type of thing....we will see.

@Indra18 I just would like to say that i meant no offense to you in anyway and if i did offend you I apologize as it was not my intention. I hope all people of this World could thrive.

 

[Assimilator]

Funny how non-U.S. Citizens seem clueless that the largest amount of taxes collected by the government is from corporations, not individuals.

Where did I say otherwise? And how, pray tell, is this relevant to this discussion?

 

[Basard]

US manufacturing is not coming back because of these tariffs, and it'd be much more than a 20% increase in goods cost if it did. Just for some perspective, the wage for a worker in china is around $3,500 a year. An individual in the US making minimum wage makes around $14,000 a year, 400% more than an individual in China.

So, are you saying that goods will cost 400% more? It takes about two man-hours to make a video card, I'm guestimating... Shipping that card THOUSANDS of miles across an OCEAN costs a lot more than the man-hours involved in manufacturing it, even at 400% higher wages.

Are you telling me that you'd rather pay some "slave" to make a video card for you? Or are you telling me that slavery is always going to exist, so you may as well take advantage of it if you can? Or are you just telling me that you hate paying "high" prices for things that no mere mortal can produce on his/her own?

EDIT: And yes, I have been to Europe and the middle-east. I've seen some squalor in my life. But when I saw that squalor I also saw people living a lot better on one "dollar" an hour than we here in the US live on five "dollars" an hour. So citizens' annual "wages" in various countries mean almost nothing to me.

Another edit: We're all slaves here, it's just a matter of who can gimme dat cool stuff for less slave labor than the other guy.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Where did I say otherwise? And how, pray tell, is this relevant to this discussion?

because you made a huge point about people in MY country cheering on the administration for all the loopholes which you IMPLIED meant we were in a bad way because corporations got out of all the taxes. It was YOUR point in the conversation. If it is not relevant, it is only because your statement had no relevance itself.

@Ahhz please stop thanking people for being anti-American. You are a Mod now, and mods are supposed to be neutral, but if you fall anywhere, it should always be on the side of your own country when an outsider attacks it. That's a great thing about us, we may fight amongst ourselves but no one else has the right to attack us.

 

[StrayKAT]

And yes, I have been to Europe and the middle-east. I've seen some squalor in my life. But when I saw that squalor I also saw people living a lot better on one "dollar" an hour than we here in the US live on five "dollars" an hour. So citizens' annual "wages" in various countries mean almost nothing to me.

Another edit: We're all slaves here, it's just a matter of who can gimme dat cool stuff for less slave labor than the other guy.

That's definitely true when it comes to food, I think. Not so much the luxuries of life. In that sense, I'm not sure USA citizens could really call themselves slaves. They're the consumers du jour... maybe a different type of slave, but they wouldn't know it (see "Fight Club" heh).

edit: Hope that's not too political!

 

[AlwaysHope]

Not worried, those who don't compulsively upgrade GPUs every generation & are content with single card performance.
This will really have no impact on this group of users.

 

[grammar_phreak]

How is there going to be a price increase if they are moving away from China?

Making up for lost time, set-up costs, construction, etc.

So, what going to happen in the future when A.I. Robots are making these cards and humans aren't really needed?

 

[EatingDirt]

So, are you saying that goods will cost 400% more? It takes about two man-hours to make a video card, I'm guestimating... Shipping that card THOUSANDS of miles across an OCEAN costs a lot more than the man-hours involved in manufacturing it, even at 400% higher wages.

Are you telling me that you'd rather pay some "slave" to make a video card for you? Or are you telling me that slavery is always going to exist, so you may as well take advantage of it if you can? Or are you just telling me that you hate paying "high" prices for things that no mere mortal can produce on his/her own?

EDIT: And yes, I have been to Europe and the middle-east. I've seen some squalor in my life. But when I saw that squalor I also saw people living a lot better on one "dollar" an hour than we here in the US live on five "dollars" an hour. So citizens' annual "wages" in various countries mean almost nothing to me.

Another edit: We're all slaves here, it's just a matter of who can gimme dat cool stuff for less slave labor than the other guy.

Let's say a video card takes 2 man hours, just for the person working to create that card and you can rest assured that the person making that video card will be paid much more than minimum wage. I'm willing to say at least 1.5x minimum wage. We're taking about 2 hours of work costing $22 instead of $5, the cost of just that lone employee increase the price of a $200 video card by more than 10%. Not to mention the management & maintenance costing much more because of labor as well. I imagine overall the cost of manufacturing something like a video card would increase 50% or more to manufacture in the US, if we had facilities already built to take on the task.

Now if you're against the extremely low wages that China pays their workers, that's another very complicated issue. If we demand China raise their wages and they do, do we remove the tariffs? I haven't seen any indication that we we would if they did comply with that demand. In fact I'm not really sure what we're demanding they do? Not steal trade secrets is the best reason I could find for enacting the tariffs, absolutely nothing to do with wages. Another complicated issue that tariffs really are unlikely to solve.

Finally on shipping. Well it's relatively cheap, otherwise countries on opposite side of the world wouldn't consume so many products manufactured from China. Just as an example: I believe the US still ships the majority of raw cotton we grow on the Southeastern part of the country to multiple countries across the Pacific, then ship that cotton right back to the US in the form of clothing (just look at the label on any of your clothing, it'll be Indonesia, Pakistan, China, etc.). That wouldn't be the case if shipping was overly expensive.

Making up for lost time, set-up costs, construction, etc.

So, what going to happen in the future when A.I. Robots are making these cards and humans aren't really needed?

If the manufacturing does come back to the US, this will be the form it takes. With relatively few employed to upkeep equipment. This is the only way the costs could remain competitive.

 

[StrayKAT]

Let's say a video card takes 2 man hours, just for the person working to create that card and you can rest assured that the person making that video card will be paid much more than minimum wage. I'm willing to say at least 1.5x minimum wage. We're taking about 2 hours of work costing $22 instead of $5, the cost of just that lone employee increase the price of a $200 video card by more than 10%. Not to mention the management & maintenance costing much more because of labor as well. I imagine overall the cost of manufacturing something like a video card would increase 50% or more to manufacture in the US, if we had facilities already built to take on the task.

Now if you're against the extremely low wages that China pays their workers, that's another very complicated issue. If we demand China raise their wages and they do, do we remove the tariffs? I haven't seen any indication that we we would if they did comply with that demand. In fact I'm not really sure what we're demanding they do? Not steal trade secrets is the best reason I could find for enacting the tariffs, absolutely nothing to do with wages. Another complicated issue that tariffs really are unlikely to solve.

Finally on shipping. Well it's relatively cheap, otherwise countries on opposite side of the world wouldn't consume so many products manufactured from China. Just as an example: I believe the US still ships the majority of raw cotton we grow on the Southeastern part of the country to multiple countries across the Pacific, then ship that cotton right back to the US in the form of clothing (just look at the label on any of your clothing, it'll be Indonesia, Pakistan, China, etc.). That wouldn't be the case if shipping was overly expensive.



If the manufacturing does come back to the US, this will be the form it takes. With relatively few employed to upkeep equipment. This is the only way the costs could remain competitive.

That day will come eventually, but no reason to rush to defeat now. Even Musk has admitted he overrated automation. There might be a more collaborative medium between the two for a long while before everything's AI.

 

[R0H1T]

So, are you saying that goods will cost 400% more? It takes about two man-hours to make a video card, I'm guestimating... Shipping that card THOUSANDS of miles across an OCEAN costs a lot more than the man-hours involved in manufacturing it, even at 400% higher wages.

Are you telling me that you'd rather pay some "slave" to make a video card for you? Or are you telling me that slavery is always going to exist, so you may as well take advantage of it if you can? Or are you just telling me that you hate paying "high" prices for things that no mere mortal can produce on his/her own?

EDIT: And yes, I have been to Europe and the middle-east. I've seen some squalor in my life. But when I saw that squalor I also saw people living a lot better on one "dollar" an hour than we here in the US live on five "dollars" an hour. So citizens' annual "wages" in various countries mean almost nothing to me.

Another edit: We're all slaves here, it's just a matter of who can gimme dat cool stuff for less slave labor than the other guy.

Does that include the $5 shirt that you buy from Bangladesh or does the outrage only extend to certain products & certain nations? If not then all US citizens should seriously stop spending on the products with questionable sources of raw materials, like that AMD thread, or slave labor in factories that make these dirt cheap products. I'm all for the reversal in China's forunes, but don't tell me that China (or other third world countries) is the only villain here.

Your companies went to East, South Asia to pump dirt cheap products, knowingly polluting the environment, flouting labor laws et al. It was their greed & the insane consumerism, in the West, that has driven us to this day. What is the carbon footprint of an avg person in the US, as compared to much of Asia? How much money do you spend on cheap clothes, or other such products, that could easily be made in the States or Central/South America. How many times have you returned clothes cross country, online (Amazon?) as they don't fit, but more importantly because the return shipping is free!

The 4% GDP growth is a facade if all you're doing is consuming more! If you're upgrading infrastructure, making people's lives better, making the US better then it makes sense. Not the same sh!t we're seeing for half a century, sorry but the rest of the world isn't on the US' side on this. Sustainable development is the need of the hour, hoarding resources or more "consumerism" isn't & yes this applies to China!

 

[Vayra86]

No, he especially, no matter the topic uses the opportunity to U.S. bash. Frankly I’m sick of it and our mods that allow this. People like him and Vayra and a few others always point out negative things about the U.S., as if we have any control over squat. All that is going to do is cause anger amongst members, dividing the community. And mods apparently are A-ok with this, despite the rules against politics.

Where tho, may I ask, do we bash their countries? So no, my aggression is out now, and well justified.

While it may be justified, is it really bashing? The fact remains the US is an influential player and its policies also affect Europe in many ways. At the core of this argument, for me, there is mutual benefit to things going well in the US and with its citizens, and what I'm seeing is mostly counterproductive policy and politics, and then a chronic blindness to how that works out - both inside the US and outside of it. Its just sad to see the constant two steps forward, one step back approach win time and time again. And do note: many countries in the EU, including my own, are also not immune to this populist movement. We have that blundering fool over here called Wilders. Basically he's just a mini-Trump pushing the very same buttons to win votes.

While things are being done differently in the Netherlands, we also have heavy US influences here and a trend moving towards all the things one could criticize the US for. Its frightening, to be honest, to see that downward spiral fly across the Ocean. Because it really is mostly negative, despite all of its promises (and saying 'we should trust'... lol).

But perhaps you're right, politics shouldn't have a place on TPU. It still is a tech forum... However its hard to deny the relation between politics and technology either - and that is another trend that is very unlikely to change, quite the opposite.

@Ahhz but if you fall anywhere, it should always be on the side of your own country when an outsider attacks it. That's a great thing about us, we may fight amongst ourselves but no one else has the right to attack us.

I really had expected you to be able to rise beyond blunt nationalism and patriotism. Is this really what you think? That the country is valued above personal / family relationships? That's pretty heavy, I hope you realize that. You're saying you would kill for the greater good of a nation, simply because you live in it. Do you even realize the US was founded upon colonization from abroad? Do you see the parallel to the second World War here? If there is one lesson that we should have learned from that, as a human species...

If there is one thing the US and its citizens need above anything else, its de escalation. You're now talking about attackers and defenders as if its a war. But nobody is shooting...

 

[Totally]

Trump continues to do his bit to help the American public by making them pay more for their goods, or put another way, making them a little poorer.

I'm surprised to see such an ignorant and short-sighted comment coming from you. Tariffs by nature actually protect a nation's economy and workforce, it's not one of those things that instantly goes into effect and benefits start rollling in. Properly enacted level the playing field by minimizing the advantage granted by logistics (i.e. being in the business of gold and living on top of a gold mine) and populace(cheap labor). I have a lot to say about this and I don't want to take this off topic but without tariffs eventually the US workforce is going to be the cheap labor that Chinese businesses exploit.

 

[Vayra86]

I'm surprised to see such an ignorant and short-sighted comment coming from you. Tariffs by nature actually protect a nation's economy and workforce, it's not one of those things that instantly goes into effect and benefits start rollling in. Properly enacted level the playing field by minimizing the advantage granted by logistics (i.e. being in the business of gold and living on top of a gold mine) and populace(cheap labor). I have a lot to say about this and I don't want to take this off topic but without tariffs eventually the US workforce is going to be the cheap labor that Chinese businesses exploit.

So, by that logic, right now the US is exploiting Chinese businesses for their cheap labor, but still feels somehow that is an unfair balance, so the response is tariffs on both sides of the fence, which effectively changes... what exactly?!

Gotcha!

And in the same reply you consider another one's comment ignorant and short sighted... What is this, some alternate reality?

Do you know what tariffs lead to?

Idiocy such as this:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...ed-water-shipped-halfway-round--world-madness

Its literally cheaper to ship a bottle of water around the globe than to bottle it locally, it invites wasteful behaviour because artificial price hikes negate the actual cost.

 

[rtwjunkie]

I really had expected you to be able to rise beyond blunt nationalism and patriotism. Is this really what you think? That the country is valued above personal / family relationships? That's pretty heavy, I hope you realize that. You're saying you would kill for the greater good of a nation, simply because you live in it. Do you even realize the US was founded upon colonization from abroad? Do you see the parallel to the second World War here? If there is one lesson that we should have learned from that, as a human species...

I know more about U.S. history than probably most on this forum. It was a major part of both degrees earned, so please don’t ask questions to me as if I am the typical American, of which we have a surplus.

Second, it’s not nationalism, etc. it doesn’t matter from whence my ancestors came, my loyalties are not to those countries. Through 3/4 of a career in the military and even now as a government employee, I take seriously my oath to the U.S. Constitution. Not to any leaders, but to the document which is central to our founding and governance. So it matters not who is in charge, my likes and dislikes will be played out at the ballot box, and I will always defend my country from outside aggression, whether verbal or more ( not sure how you took the leap to killing, since I was talking about verbal attacks).

Let me make it easy for you to understand. For the majority of people in the world, they may fight or disagree or not like things about a brother, sister, spouse, mother or father, but it is not ok for someone else outside that family to say nasty things about those family members. That person will defend their family no matter what.

This is why we don’t do politics here. Too many assumptions are made by people who don’t have all the facts about another person or their country. And too many people think it is ok to bash and verbally attack and bring up negatives, as if the person in another country has the power to say “you’re right, this is so absurd, let me go fix it right away.”

No one is able to control where they were born. There is nothing wrong with loving ones own country, despite the flaws. This is why you don’t ever see me bashing another country, despite the strong views I have for one in particular, due to ancestry and spouse, and the mess unfolding there. I keep it inside where it belongs.

 

[Vayra86]

I know more about U.S. history than probably most on this forum. It was a major part of both degrees earned, so please don’t ask questions to me as if I am the typical American, of which we have a surplus.

Second, it’s not nationalism, etc. it doesn’t matter from whence my ancestors came, my loyalties are not to those countries. Through 3/4 of a career in the military and even now as a government employee, I take seriously my oath to the U.S. Constitution. Not to any leaders, but to the document which is central to our founding and governance. So it matters not who is in charge, my likes and dislikes will be played out at the ballot box, and I will always defend my country from outside aggression, whether verbal or more ( not sure how you took the leap to killing, since I was talking about verbal attacks).

Let me make it easy for you to understand. For the majority of people in the world, they may fight or disagree or not like things about a brother, sister, spouse, mother or father, but it is not ok for someone else outside that family to say nasty things about. That person will defend their family no matter what.

This is why we don’t do politics here. Too many assumptions are made by people who don’t have all the facts about another person or their country. And too many people think it is ok to bash and verbally attack and bring up negatives, as if the person in another country has the power to say “you’re right, this is so absurd, let me go fix it right away.

No one is able to control where they were born. There is nothing wrong with loving ones own country, despite the flaws. This is why you don’t ever see me bashing another country, despite the strong views I have for one in particular, due to ancestry and spouse, and the mess unfolding there. I keep it inside where it belongs.

Point taken and understood. And I will leave it at that, because this is a topic we will likely never agree on

 

[rtwjunkie]

Point taken and understood. And I will leave it at that, because this is a topic we will likely never agree on

I as well. We have an agreement to disagree, and leave it at that, which is ok! I respect your tech knowledge and enthusiasm a lot, and that is why we are here.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

I guess "eyes open" means "completely ignorant of basic economics".

i have to agree with his statement. its not exactly enlightening but its not an ignorant statement.

Frankly I’m sick of it and our mods that allow this.

Tariffs and the implications is a political topic to being with, the best we can do is try to keep replies civil. So maybe this story shouldnt have been posted to begin with.

and that is why we are here

I'm here for the coffee.

 

[grammar_phreak]

If the manufacturing does come back to the US, this will be the form it takes. With relatively few employed to upkeep equipment. This is the only way the costs could remain competitive.

This reminds me of what's going in the central part of the State of Washington, mainly in Quincy. Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, etc have built large server farms in this area. Before this happened the local politicians thought these companies would being all kinds of employment to the area but they were surprised to see how few people it takes to maintain these server farms. On the upside, this did raise the bar for construction employment and wages. It takes a lot of electricians to pull wires through these server farms. Cheap electricity there.

Manufacturing is going to go where ever it gets the sweetest deal.

 

[Ahhzz]

@Ahhz please stop thanking people for being anti-American. You are a Mod now, and mods are supposed to be neutral, but if you fall anywhere, it should always be on the side of your own country when an outsider attacks it. That's a great thing about us, we may fight amongst ourselves but no one else has the right to attack us.

Didn't mean to click; I believe I was just passing down this train wreck of a thread, and I guess I clicked too quickly I am trying mightily to stay out of these conversations, other than to try to aim them in a general On-Topic direction, mostly.

 

[Totally]

So, by that logic, right now the US is exploiting Chinese businesses for their cheap labor, but still feels somehow that is an unfair balance, so the response is tariffs on both sides of the fence, which effectively changes... what exactly?

Gotcha!

Are you being thick on purpose? That IS the other side of the same coin it’s the same problem the tariffs combating what I described is the natural progression of what you just stated so ofc it's logical. ou're that clueless why are you chiming in on the subject? What changes? A lumberjack sawing off the very tree branch he is sitting on, has been a good image to depict the state of the US labor and economy for awhile. China has the problem of too many people and not enough jobs and US businesses always seeking more profit are shipping jobs their way. Even if a business would like to keep it's operations domestic how does it compete with those thriving on cheap labor? Meanwhile this is happening the Chinese gov't Skilling up their labor force excarbating the problem AND improving their industry reducing their reliance on the US and other countries for jobs. Signs of which already are starting to become apparent as they're importing workers and are increasingly becoming more selective what the are taking on and allowing in. I could go on

And in the same reply you consider another one's comment ignorant and short sighted... What is this, some alternate reality?

Do you know what tariffs lead to?

Idiocy such as this:
https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...ed-water-shipped-halfway-round--world-madness

Its literally cheaper to ship a bottle of water around the globe than to bottle it locally, it invites wasteful behaviour because artificial price hikes negate ovel cost.

No one is forcing people to buy That's a UK people problem not an economic or US one tap water is perfectly fine for most in the US.

Are you being thick on purpose? That IS the other side of the same coin it’s the same problem the tariffs combating what I described is the natural progression of what you just stated so ofc it's logical. ou're that clueless why are you chiming in on the subject? What changes? A lumberjack sawing off the very tree branch he is sitting on, has been a good image to depict the state of the US labor and economy for awhile. China has the problem of too many people and not enough jobs and US businesses always seeking more profit are shipping jobs their way. Even if a business would like to keep it's operations domestic how does it compete with those thriving on cheap labor? Meanwhile this is happening the Chinese gov't Skilling up their labor force excarbating the problem AND improving their industry reducing their reliance on the US and other countries for jobs. Signs of which already are starting to become apparent as they're importing workers and are increasingly becoming more selective what the are taking on and allowing in. I could go on


No one is forcing people to buy water from half way around the world is tap water not free over there? That's a UK people problem not an economic or US one tap water is perfectly fine for most in the US.

 

[JaymondoGB]

In the long run this will be a good thing, the China problem had to be deal with. Im sure India or Parts of Africa will offer simular oppertunities to companys to move production without the usual stealing of IP you get from dealing with the Chineese. We might never recover all the lost trade because of Chinas closed boarders, but at least we have started trying.