Microsoft Reconsiders: No More Forced Updates in Windows 10

[Bones]

The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.

The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.

And my time has already come - That's what Linux is for.

 

[trparky]

The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.

Without crash data how the heck do you think anything will get fixed? Oh yeah... that's right, IT WON'T!

It's a lot like a developer putting out a program and then someone telling the developer that it's not working for them. OK sure, it's not working but tell the developer why it's not working. So instead of the user telling the developer why it crashed the user turns around and tells the developer to go screw himself.

You are basically saying exactly that to Microsoft, you are telling them in no uncertain terms to go screw themselves. You are not giving them the data, the crash dumps and stack traces, to fix issues that come up. And then you whine that things don't work right. Duh! You can't fix what you don't know about! Any developer will tell you this, especially with software as complex as an OS.

Mozilla does it, Google does it, Apple does it. Pretty much all software sends back data to the developer so as to improve software quality. Because again, you can't fix what you don't know about. You can have test case after test case after test case but even the most perfectly written code is going to have some strange issue on some person's system due to God knows what. A developer needs data about the issue so as to fix it. Period. Bugs don't get magically fixed, bugs get fixed with proper data from users who have issues.

 

[Bones]

And with all this "Crash Data" as you call it that's already been collected, all the problems with updates breaking installs, causing crashes of everything from your little PC to the corporate server system yet they still continued with forced updates...... The issues still continue, previously fixed issues break again......... It goes on and on.

Even NOW there isn't an actual change - The thread title says "Reconsidering", not that's it's a done deal and even with that I woudn't trust it.

They ain't studying "Fixing" anything except for their ability to snoop.

You willingly bend over for such you deserve what you get.

 

[moproblems99]

The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.

And my time has already come - That's what Linux is for.

Yes, because Windows 7 doesn't send ANY telemetry. Linux doesn't send any telemetry. Applications don't send any telemetry. You act like they are sending your banking transactions, and porn habits.

Take off the tinfoil hats.

And with all this "Crash Data" as you call it that's already been collected, all the problems with updates breaking installs, causing crashes of everything from your little PC to the corporate server system yet they still continued with forced updates...... The issues still continue, previously fixed issues break again......... It goes on and on.

I also don't think you understand regression testing and what an impossible job it is for the pc platform. When you think of all the hardware and software combinations, they may as well be mapping the stars. I agree with you their QA process sucks but they would be much better off fixing the QA process and keep the forced updates instead of taking off forced updates and still having a shitty QA process.

A bad update is a bad update and will brick your shit whether it is forced or not.

 

[trparky]

Sometimes in an effort to fix one bug you can break things in other areas, shit happens. It's called life, get over it.

These systems are complex with so many moving pieces, things are bound to go wrong when you poke and prod in some areas. Software isn't ever going to be perfect, as a developer (small time though I may be) I understand this concept very much so.

 

[moproblems99]

Software isn't ever going to be perfect, as a developer (small time though I may be) I understand this concept very much so.

I don't know about you but I write perfect code.

 

[Ubersonic]

God dammit, title got me excited that I could revert to Version 1803 and keep it forever /sulk

Later found out it's called "This PC" and no longer "My Computer"

Tell me. What the hell is the point in renaming something after all these years?

In fairness it has been "This PC" for 5 years now (and hasn't been "My Computer" for well over a decade). No offense intended but your belief that so much has changed with 10 may be due to not using an O/S since W7 so not having seen the changes/features implemented to Windows in the last decade.

This tends to be a running theme with people who complain about W10, hell many of the people who claim to love W7 even have features of W7 disabled in the first place and don't even realise it (I.E small icons on the taskbar is a feature added in 7 to make the W7 taskbar look more like Vista).

 

[Bones]

Yes, because Windows 7 doesn't send ANY telemetry. Linux doesn't send any telemetry. Applications don't send any telemetry. You act like they are sending your banking transactions, and porn habits.
Take off the tinfoil hats.

Please show me where I said Win 7, Linux or any other doesn't do such things too - You can't.
Win 10 however is SO intrusive in comparison it goes "There" so I don't and will never have it on anything I browse the web with.

As for exactly what is being collected, present something saying/proving what "It" is being collected.
If you can't do that then the previous has no meaning.
And I happen to like my tinfoil hat thank you very much so I'll keep wearing it.

I also don't think you understand regression testing and what an impossible job it is for the pc platform. When you think of all the hardware and software combinations, they may as well be mapping the stars. I agree with you their QA process sucks but they would be much better off fixing the QA process and keep the forced updates instead of taking off forced updates and still having a shitty QA process.

A bad update is a bad update and will brick your shit whether it is forced or not.

My thing is why do they need to force updates in the first place?
There is a purpose for it and no, it's ain't about it being for one's own good. As for bad updates, you hit the nail on the head.

I do understand sometimes things can go wrong but as frequently and as badly as it's been you should have the ability to "Turn it off" if you want and it remain that way, which BTW is no secret an update would force all the crap back on again regardless.

@trparky I'm well over it be it due to life or whatever because I will not use Win 10.
Problem solved.

 

[TheGuruStud]

Can I have win2k back, please? Hell, I'll settle for XP x64.

 

[eidairaman1]

Please show me where I said Win 7, Linux or any other doesn't do such things too - You can't.
Win 10 however is SO intrusive in comparison it goes "There" so I don't and will never have it on anything I browse the web with.

As for exactly what is being collected, present something saying/proving what "It" is being collected.
If you can't do that then the previous has no meaning.
And I happen to like my tinfoil hat thank you very much so I'll keep wearing it.


My thing is why do they need to force updates in the first place?
There is a purpose for it and no, it's ain't about it being for one's own good. As for bad updates, you hit the nail on the head.

I do understand sometimes things can go wrong but as frequently and as badly as it's been you should have the ability to "Turn it off" if you want and it remain that way, which BTW is no secret an update would force all the crap back on again regardless.

@trparky I'm well over it be it due to life or whatever because I will not use Win 10.
Problem solved.

In win 7 i removed every "update" that puts telemetry in.

 

[CrAsHnBuRnXp]

The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.

And my time has already come - That's what Linux is for.

God who cares. It's the world we live in. You dont think facebook is keeping track of you? Apple? Google? Please.

I find it fascinating how some declare their dedication to Windows 7 or swear they're rolling back to it. Sure. See you back same time next year whingeing about how your OS is now out of the extended support period and software vendors have plans to ditch support for the OS. New CPUs aren't supported on Windows 7 either.

I have annoyances with Windows 10, and most honest people would have something they'd like improved as well, but most of your whinges are so petty it's sad. If you've had a stability issue, you blame the company or OS as the root cause... with anecdotal 'evidence' at best. The rose coloured glasses for Windows 7 reminds me of the Windows XP army who said the same thing about Windows 7 when it released.

Same stuff, 4 years later.

Not only that, good luck with any new computer build since newer Intel chips dont natively support Windows 7 anymore.

 

[blobster21]

@Raevenlord : thanks for this news.

Could you edit the title to accurately reflect the forced update after 18months ?

 

[TheGuruStud]

God who cares. It's the world we live in. You dont think facebook is keeping track of you? Apple? Google? Please.


Not only that, good luck with any new computer build since newer Intel chips dont natively support Windows 7 anymore.

That's just a support technicality.

 

[Bones]

God who cares. It's the world we live in. You dont think facebook is keeping track of you? Apple? Google? Please.

Aww........ please is what I say too.
I mean I understand where you're coming from but doesn't mean you don't have the right to reduce or minimize it. If you don't then it only gets worse which it will over time anyway.
And just because the others are doing it too doesn't mean I have to like it or do nothing about it on my part.

Not only that, good luck with any new computer build since newer Intel chips dont natively support Windows 7 anymore.

Now..... Who says I'll be running an Intel in the future or that Win 10 will be the only choice I'd have?
Just did an AMD build, Ryzen 2700x in a X470 Tachi Ultimate to be exact and installed Win 7 on it like it was nothing - Doing great and posting with it right now while getting some folding done too.

Not gonna keep going back and forth over it, Microsoft only says they are reconsidering, not that it's stopped nor is there any guarantee it ever will.
Even if they did stop, no promises it woudn't start up again as well.

 

[Shihab]

Without crash data how the heck do you think anything will get fixed? Oh yeah... that's right, IT WON'T!

The way I see it, the anger wasn't sparked by the existence of telemetery itself (though there were admittedly no shortage of FUD accompanying Win10's implementations), rather the lack of an opt-out option for them. Couple that with Microsoft's initial lack of anything resembling transparency, their stubborn attitude towards accepting user choice without extreme pressure, and voila! There you have your controversy.

Imo, it would be better to change the narrative from "telemetry vs no telemetry" to "automatic vs opt-in/out telemetry," the latter which colours a noticeable distinction between Microsoft's (and Google's) approach, and Mozilla's.

p.s: Unless there is some preprocessing I'm not aware of happening to those dumps before they are uploaded, memory dumps are a well known data leak vector, so I'm personally pro giving people the choice whether they want to give this data or not. Forcing trust is not the wisest of approaches.

Just did an AMD build, Ryzen 2700x in a X470 Tachi Ultimate to be exact and installed Win 7 on it like it was nothing - Doing great and posting with it right now while getting some folding done too.

Technically, Zen is unsupported on Win7. So I assume you've either hacked your way through the update blockade, which makes the anti-10 arguments moot since you can hack -most of- those as well, or avoided updates completely, which isn't the smartest thing to do, imo.

 

[Bones]

The way I see it, the anger wasn't sparked by the existence of telemetery itself (though there were admittedly no shortage of FUD accompanying Win10's implementations), rather the lack of an opt-out option for them. Couple that with Microsoft's initial lack of anything resembling transparency, their stubborn attitude towards accepting user choice without extreme pressure, and voila! There you have your controversy.

Imo, it would be better to change the narrative from "telemetry vs no telemetry" to "automatic vs opt-in/out telemetry," the latter which colours a noticeable distinction between Microsoft's (and Google's) approach, and Mozilla's.

p.s: Unless there is some preprocessing I'm not aware of happening to those dumps before they are uploaded, memory dumps are a well known data leak vector, so I'm personally pro giving people the choice whether they want to give this data or not. Forcing trust is not the wisest of approaches.

Thank you!
Nailed it to a "T".

There is no trust if your trust in them is forced upon you.

Technically, Zen is unsupported on Win7. So I assume you've either hacked your way through the update blockade, which makes the anti-10 arguments moot since you can hack -most of- those as well, or avoided updates completely, which isn't the smartest thing to do, imo.

If you "Know" how the install process goes you can work around it - An extra step or two and that's about it.
Note I said "Install", not update.
No hacking required.

 

[SoNic67]

Win 7 FTW

Enjoy broken DX12 games. Enjoy broken security.

 

[Vayra86]

I don't know about you but I write perfect code.

We all do. Yet sometimes things still fail

Even if they did stop, no promises it woudn't start up again as well.

This is absolutely true, but really, consider the real world for once: we're looking at people using PCs. If MS annoys them too much, they will hop over. They have alternatives, too, that they even already use such as smartphone and tablet. ARM is right there. Chromebooks exist. Linux exists.

So far the market has clearly vouched for MS and its OS at large. And it still does, despite the alternatives. For business, that is even more strongly the case. Thát is MS's core business. It is not cloud! Cloud is just a means to better serve that core business, and hopefully get some more money out of it. But it is also the very thing that keeps people away from mass adopting (and only adopting) the alternatives. Adoption rate/marketshare is everything - MS missed the boat on that one with a lot of things (mobile for example, but also digital software distribution, search, browser), and they are going to be very careful about their one major bastion: Windows. They didn't give us a free upgrade because it was the right thing to do...

Look at Windows 8 reception. It was horrible enough for MS to push 8.1 with major UI changes. This company listens to 'us'. It won't always be perfect for everyone, but its quite a long way in the right direction. I'd say much more so than for example Google. Another example: security breaches. MS has a pretty damn strong track record in that sense if you consider the scale and number of attack vectors possible. They have a mastery of things x86 very few companies have and in my opinion are pretty good caretakers of it. The company's been accused of many things, but its certainly not pushing a scary new reality on us. There are other tech companies doing that push. MS just follows along, but it does that with services that are actually useful, and not some silly social media or in-home speakers. Even Cortana hasn't had the slightest privacy issue yet. MS is very careful with that.

 

[R-T-B]

Without crash data how the heck do you think anything will get fixed? Oh yeah... that's right, IT WON'T

Linux says hi.

We all do. Yet sometimes things still fail

It's the computers fault! It did what I said and not what I meant!

 

[trparky]

Um... last time I checked when you submit a bug report (even in Linux) they request some sort of data to try and diagnose what happened. I've read Mozilla bug reports too, they too request stack trace data to diagnose issues. Hell, even Firefox has a crash reporting subsystem that you can see reported crashes via about:crashes; those reports were submitted by Firefox to Mozilla. And yes, it's done automatically exactly like they should be. Crashes should ALWAYS be reported along with any and all data that could lead to a fix.

Saying that something crashed and having no data to back it up isn't at all helpful and won't lead to a bug a fix. It's like making a court case with no evidence, it's not much of a court case.

Case in point... this Firefox bug report (Firefox crashes with error Program received signal SIGPIPE, Broken pipe) There's a full stack trace with all required data to fix said bug. That's what is needed to fix bugs, without that data a developer can't hope to fix bugs.

All these people saying that telemetry is bad is saying that Mozilla shouldn't be getting the stack trace data that's included in that bug report I linked to above. Well if that's the case then how you do expect Mozilla to fix the bug? Oh yeah... you can't expect them because there's no data to see what the program was doing to determine the root cause of the crash.

Telemetry is absolutely necessary to fix bugs, period. A developer cannot know what happened to cause the program to crash without data to determine why.

 

[GreiverBlade]

strangely enough ... i never had any issue with win 10 ... aside that FREAKING annoying one with the Intel microcode update (actually a Intel F@CK up rather than M$ )

surprisingly i find W10 closer to my experience with Win7 than what i had with W8.1 (never got into W8 ... 8.1 was fine tho ) aside what i mentioned above (OC break) i experienced less BSOD or other joyful things since i upgraded (sometime a crash from Nv drivers... but that's Nv faults ... which is why i roll video drivers from 6 month back until i see enough hotfix and feedback saying they are alright... which is rare with Nv ... so much for the "driver superiority") luckily W10 doesn't push video drivers, basically: i saw more BSOD during my Win7 time than now ... strange? eh?

 

[eidairaman1]

Enjoy broken DX12 games. Enjoy broken security.

10 is broken every build.

DX12 games are coming to 7 so that was moot point

 

[moproblems99]

10 is broken every build.

I mean it really isn't. For some yes. But not for all. I do not think I have had a bad update yet. I am having a weird issue with my start button. Could it have been from an update? Sure. Do I know? Nope.

 

[eidairaman1]

I mean it really isn't. For some yes. But not for all. I do not think I have had a bad update yet. I am having a weird issue with my start button. Could it have been from an update? Sure. Do I know? Nope.

It is an update, didnt have that trouble in 7, seems all too common in 10.

 

[Shihab]

Um... last time I checked when you submit a bug report (even in Linux) they request some sort of data to try and diagnose what happened.

I've read Mozilla bug reports too, they too request stack trace data to diagnose issues.

Keyword: "Request."

Hell, even Firefox has a crash reporting subsystem that you can see reported crashes via about:crashes; those reports were submitted by Firefox to Mozilla. And yes, it's done automatically exactly like they should be. Crashes should ALWAYS be reported along with any and all data that could lead to a fix.

Firefox only auto-uploads dumps if the option is set in the browser's settings, a cool checkbox with the description "Allow Firefox to send backlogged crash reports on your behalf" in Settings -> Privacy and Security -> Firefox Data Collection and Use.
Mozilla explicitly emphasizes on the users' choice to decline this.