Microsoft Reconsiders: No More Forced Updates in Windows 10

[R0H1T]

Tbf there's way more idiots using phones than computers & yet none highlights the massive issues there!

 

[TheOne]

Live Tiles can be disabled with a tweak.

Yeah, but it is the one bug that I've seen that seems to affects every system.

 

[Caring1]

Tbf there's way more idiots using phones than computers & yet none highlights the massive issues there!

On the bright side, there's way more chance of natural selection kicking in for phone users than someone at home at a desk.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Or just don't add them to the Start menu. It takes me like 30 seconds to remove the default ones, and then I never add them again.

That would work too.

Most people feel butthurt by the lack of control they have in W10, despite it's ease of use, so they decide to make their life harder to prove a point.

That's not it at all. People care about important things, are willing to stand their ground and not take any of Microsoft's crap.

Yeah, but it is the one bug that I've seen that seems to affects every system.

The latest version of 10(1809) fixed the bug I think you're talking about.

 

[TheOne]

The latest version of 10(1809) fixed the bug I think you're talking about.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be, I did a fresh install at the end of January on my system and the weather app's live tile is broken.

 

[R-T-B]

Nouveau

There's where you went wrong. Unless your card is very very legacy, use nvidia driver, not nouveau.

You might say that sarcastically, but it's pretty close to the truth.

You must not have used the right linux, or used it recently. It's really not tough anymore.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be, I did a fresh install at the end of January on my system and the weather app's live tile is broken.

I had that bug. At some point an update of some kind did indeed fix it.

 

[newtekie1]

The basic reason is that these days (and since XP/Vista really) you don't need any knowledge/understanding of computers in order to operate them for basic use. This has resulted in a world where the vast vast majority of Windows "home" users are complete idiots who avoid installing security updates and service packs because they don't want to slow their computer or waste time downloading things when they have stuff to do. This was a major issue with XP (*cough* MSBlast, *cough* WannaCry) and as a result it was damaging Microsoft's reputation because stupid users refused to believe their problems were caused by their own stupidity, it must be Windows fault. It's kind of similar to the BSOD issues in the Win9x days, the vast majority of BSODs were the result of users buying cheap hardware with buggy drivers but try telling them that, nonono must be crappy Win98 lol.

Anyway with W10 Microsoft had enough of the PEBKAC and took the decisions out of the hands of people unsuitable for making them.

Very much this! The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.

 

[R-T-B]

Very much this! The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.

The only thing I disagree with in his whole statement is the idea that Windows 9x was anything but a finely polished turd.

 

[eidairaman1]

Very much this! The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.

Thats any of them, 10 you name it.


Microsoft doesnt provide a manual on how to keep a system secure and updated.

 

[newtekie1]

Thats any of them, 10 you name it.


Microsoft doesnt provide a manual on how to keep a system secure and updated.

Of course not, I'm not saying Windows 10 is infallible. But in my experience running a computer repair shop, the most badly infected machines are always Windows 7 that have had the updates turned off. Windows 10 machines are usually pretty darn easy to clean off. The gunk that infects Windows 10 tends to be like minor surface rust compared to the completely rotted to the core stuff I've seen with Windows 7.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be, I did a fresh install at the end of January on my system and the weather app's live tile is broken.

Not the bug I was thinking of, but...

I had that bug. At some point an update of some kind did indeed fix it.

... I'm sure they fixed that one too.

The only thing I disagree with in his whole statement is the idea that Windows 9x was anything but a finely polished turd.

Have to agree, Windows 95/98/98SE were revolutionary in that time. Windows Vista was misunderstood. Windows 8 was the steamy turd, 8.1 was polished turd and 10 is constantly being polished to a fine shine, yet in the end it's still a turd.

But in my experience running a computer repair shop, the most badly infected machines are always Windows 7 that have had the updates turned off.

That's not been my experience. The ones that have the most problems are ones without an AV/AM protecting the system. This is across all versions of Windows, not just 7.

 

[TheOne]

I had that bug. At some point an update of some kind did indeed fix it.

A problem with it is that it comes and goes, when I did a fresh install of 1809 the weather tile worked, didn't stop until I switched locations, I'm hoping that 1903 will address it, again?, of course there is also the problem that they may break it again with another update. I mean this is just a minor annoyance, especially on a fresh install, but its' one that seems to plague 10 across most hardware.

 

[R-T-B]

Have to agree, Windows 95/98/98SE were revolutionary in that time.

I think you misunderstood me. From a tech perspective the entire 9x line was beaten soundly by the likes of IBM OS/2. Yes, OS/2.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I think you misunderstood me. From a tech perspective the entire 9x line was beaten soundly by the likes of IBM OS/2. Yes, OS/2.

Yup, I think I did. No worries. OS/2 Warp4 was amazing, but Windows was more popular.

 

[lemonadesoda]

This is all about legal liability. If YOU CHOOSE to upgrade, you do so at your own risk, if you wait, by 18 months MS should have fixed the bugs bugs bugs.
Now, MS, please stop fking with skype. The new skype is awful and has this same philosophy of “we own your computer and we will remove YOUR ability to decide when to update and we will fk with the interface and functionality whenever we choose”.

 

[Shihab]

I see people going for the "because average Joe is dump" argument. Pretty sure many people share that belief post, what, every election ever? Lucky for -some of- us they can't take matters into their own hands, but unfortunetly, MS can and do/did.
That is if we gave them the benefit of doubt and assumed that that's their only reason for this.

There's where you went wrong. Unless your card is very very legacy, use nvidia driver, not nouveau.

Long story. Starts with Nouveau being the default driver that effs everything up, and inability to use the built-in driver switcher because Nvidia (OFAC, actually) deemed my region too barberic to access their repos...

 

[R-T-B]

Yup, I think I did. No worries. OS/2 Warp4 was amazing, but Windows was more popular.

Certainly no denying how it went down... heh.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Parts of Windows 10 I don’t mind—the idea of auto-updates is really not bad, provided the system can recover from failed updates and you’re getting updates that fix issues and improve security. What I don’t care for is MS trying to do 2 major updates in a year (and their UI design choices that I previously discussed). Windows should be maturing and needing fewer major updates, not more. When MS tries to make Windows exciting, it is often not well received. My experience with “average” users is that they almost universally hate when their computer changes. Whether it’s Windows or Instagram, many just don’t want to have to relearn or adjust to something different because the way it was worked just fine. Apple has made a living with gradual change. People may view it as a lack of innovation, but I think that’s one thing they figured out, and when they do introduce some significant change, they tend to advertise it heavily to get customers to embrace it. MS doesn’t really have this influence.

 

[R-T-B]

Long story. Starts with Nouveau being the default driver that effs everything up, and inability to use the built-in driver switcher because Nvidia (OFAC, actually) deemed my region too barberic to access their repos...

Ooh! I remember this story. It ends with me being told I was supporting ethnic cleansing for saying gpu-driver embargos are dumb...

Fun story. (/s for the dense)

 

[syrup]

That's nice, but it's still relatively short-term with a service model that means other, less welcome changes are inevitable, and little you can do about it other than grumble/acquiesce or abandon Windows.

With Windows 8.1, 7, and prior versions, you handed over your money and basically had a ten year agreement. Even though bundling distorted the market a lot, when people didn't like what Microsoft was dishing out (e.g. Me, Vista, 8), the long support periods for existing versions of Windows meant customers had plenty of scope to send a strong market signal and trigger a change in Microsoft's direction by withholding their almighty dollar.

How's that supposed to work with Windows 10?

 

[John Naylor]

I'm still not seeing the profit here for MS. They sell Windows 10 once.

Their profit idea lies in the Store and in cloud. If you don't use them, this is the cheapest Windows OS ever. And even the most feature rich at that too.

The money is in the data collection ... look at Google ... they basically had no product to sell, just their user's data.

The retail edition of Windows 10 is not a major seller. Almost all the copies sold are OEM versions that can't be transferred from one computer to another. So when someone buys a new computer, they are still buying a new copy and MS gets more money.

In the past, MS presented mixed signals on this ....

Windows 10 EULA
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

4. Transfer. The provisions of this section do not apply if you acquired the software in Germany or in any of the countries listed on this site (aka.ms/transfer), in which case any transfer of the software to a third party, and the right to use it, must comply with applicable law.

a. Software preinstalled on device. If you acquired the software preinstalled on a device (and also if you upgraded from software preinstalled on a device), you may transfer the license to use the software directly to another user, only with the licensed device. The transfer must include the software and, if provided with the device, an authentic Windows label including the product key. Before any permitted transfer, the other party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software.

b. Stand-alone software. If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices.

When you buy a "stand alone" copy of Win 10 on newegg it is a stand alone purchase. Nowadays it's made clear , on most sites anyway, that when you buy a "Stand alone" OEM copy there's usually a disclaimer saying "Use of this OEM System Builder Channel software is subject to the terms of the Microsoft OEM System Builder License. This software is intended for pre-installation on a new personal computer for resale. This OEM System Builder Channel software requires the assembler to provide end user support for the Windows software and cannot be transferred to another computer once it is installed. " That disclaimer didn't appear, more often than not, in the early days.

That being said, I have to say .... I have done MoBo and CPU replacements after a MoBo failed and never had an activation issue. If you upgrade from a 2 year old budget MoBo and CPU to a Hi end enthusiast board, the activation will likely fail. But if you go from a MSI Z170 Gaming Pro Carbon to a MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon (assuming they both exist, just pulled name outta you can guess where) as long it can be viewed as a likely warranty replacement, I wouldn't expect activation to fail. I have done it 3 times expectiung each time to have to call and provide proof via a RMA receipt. But all 3 times on line activation happened w/o a hitch ... 2 of the 3 were different generation MoBo / CPU replacements ... the 3rd just MoBo ...all 3 were RMAs. After 6 months, the new pair replace the old pair in the database.

The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.

After 5 years, Windows 10 finally replaced Windows 7 in November 2018 as the dominant windows version ..... that many people must have a reason. Anyone who manages a network on 5 - 10 PCs spends less time per box on Win 7 than Win 10.... Imagine the chaos when Asus only shops got the pdate that broke systems w/ a selection of Asus Boards

To make 10 acceptable ..... WU needs to be set up to provide options as follows:

A. Security Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 - 90 days)

B. Feature Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)

C. Hardware Driver Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)

D. Data Collecti Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)

It wasn't even called "My Computer" in Windows 7... It's also not on the desktop by default in Windows 7 either.

It is on all the boxes on our network ... or was ... I renamed them to Machine Alpha, Machine Beta, etc.


There's two types of Windows users just like there's two camps of those watching politics. Those that believe what MS says and those who use common sense. MS believed offering Win 10 for free would result in everyone switching over in the 1st few weeks ... there has never been a case where installing a new OS on old hardware was a good idea. Even if you get the same performance, the loss in time, effort, downtime and refamiliarization never produces a positive ROI. American businesses found that out w/ Win 95 when, according to InfoWorld, businesses invested an average of $2500 - $4500 per seat in hardware, IT time, retraining, etc only to see performance drop by 40%.

MS says it's for our benefit .... geez.... . When my son broughthis car in to get a flat repaired, they said his 3 month old car needed 4 tires, a wheel alignment, wiper blades and brake pads. I built my SOHO network in 1993 using WFWGs for 5 boxes .... had 10 by 1996. So I'd say 230+ machine years and have only seen 1 infection. Rec'd a infected 3.5" floppy, was picked up upon insertion and disinfected before file was copied to HD. I don't see as we need MS "saving us from anything". I have had frantic calls from colleagues and users we support when XP SP3 destroyed AutoCADs licensing ... can't imagine the frustration of having 20 CAD operators sitting at their desks unable to use their software investment of $3500 - $15,000 per seats for 2 days for people who normally billed out at $85 an hour ($25,000+). The day Win10 broke, it broke every SLI system it was installed on.

The was one reason and one reason only why Windows 10 was free ... MS say that Google had grown into one of America's most affluent companies without selling any products. They signed on with bunches of partners to provide data mining which marketing types and copyright holders froth at the mouth when thinking of getting their hands on it. One of the reasons MS started it's unscrupulous behaviors of sneaking / tricking people into upgrading was to get their partners off their back who had paid for access to amounts of data that wasn't being delivered because of the abysmally low uptake of the new OS.

Win 10 is by no means a terrible OS .... the best think for them to do would be to:

Windows 10 Consumer Edition - Free or a minimal cost and you agree to let MS control what happens on your PC ... when PC gets broken, you lose access ... well it will suck to be you that day.
Windows 10 Professional Edition - Charge $200 or more for people who earn a living with their PCs and then leave us the hell alone. provide a "chinese menu "with access to all features and allow us to check or uncheck a box for things we went and things we don't.

As for the "everybody does it" illusion ... not here ... When i experience a crash in AutoCAD for example .... I get a pop up asking me if I want to send a report. Firefox allows one to control what is and what is not sent. This happens in games too. The OS should allow the option globally. The difference being the user gets to choose what data is sent and if it will be sent. This is akin to having a security system.

Option A - When leaving the house and turning system ON, if an entry alarm is active and not cancelled within xx seconds, the system will auto activate all security cameras.

Option B - Whenever the system operator suspects something may be amiss, the operator can activate all security cameras.

Option C - All data from security cameras will be kept on alarm company servers.

if choosing B or C, you can ask company to call you at work if ya daughter is having sex with her BF in your den after school.

I once read a licensing agreement where the EULA said that all work created with their software became the legal property of the software developer. We have no idea what data their telemetry is collected and we are entitled to have a readable copy of all data transmitted Why not have this data be logged on the PC and produce a popup asking the user for permission to send the log file ? User would have option of reading before being sent or to save to a log file folder which would be emptied of all files more than 30 days old ? Because many of the partners they provide data to don't want the user made aware.

Media services are doing the same thing. We recently received a notice from our cable / internet provider that we had illegally downloaded an HBO movie. I called them and told them that this was ridiculous as we pay them for HBO and could watch the content at any time and had already seen that particular title 2 years back. The customer service rep laughed and said "duh", don't know why they would send you that notice w/o checking your subscription.

One of MS's partners is MarkMonitor / MCAA ... why are they paying MS for access to this data ? Think about that ... all those free upgrades for Win 10 that are even still being offered .... what has replaced that revenue stream ? what could possibly have comparable value ?

 

[Ubersonic]

It is on all the boxes on our network ... or was ...

It wasn't, it was changed to My Computer in Windows 95, then changed to Computer in Windows Vista, then changed to This PC in Windows 8.1

 

[amit_talkin]

So many hatred towards Win10. But imo, there are far more people who like the Win10 OS as it is now ( like me ) and never bother to post any reply here because We just dont care. There are surely some flows as all OS has. Its still far better than Mac or Linux for end users ( not going with server platform, undeniably Linux is king there ).
And yes, Linux sucks...25 years in making and cant even beat a paid OS for end users.

 

[hat]

That's a fair perspective. Now if they could only get it through their heads that invading people's privacy is wrong and borderline illegal, do away with the waste of time activation nonsense, go back to OS as a stand-alone product(as this OS-as-a-service crap doesn't work very well for the general public), stop forcing people to use Windows Defender, Edge(IE allowing for the easy removal of such along with anything else the user doesn't like), take the UI back to Windows 7 and redevelop/redesign from there followed by releasing Windows 11. Yeah, those would be great things and Microsoft would show the world they actually give a damn about the future of Windows as a platform.

Outside of telemetry issues, no one is forcing you to use any of those things. I have Windows Defender disabled, and I use SRWare Iron. Sure, those things still exist somewhere on the system, but they're not in use. Much like many other functions of the OS that I never use or may not even be aware they exist. Forced telemetry can totally go die in a fire, though... but you and I both know that's never going to happen. Unless you begin life anew totally off the grid somewhere, you're going to be tracked.

 

[Vayra86]

The money is in the data collection ... look at Google ... they basically had no product to sell, just their user's data.

Can you elaborate? I'm not seeing this. MS has no AdSense, it has no mobile OS, it has nothing even remotely like Google in terms of big data on consumers.

The money for MS right now is in cloud:

https://news.microsoft.com/2018/07/19/microsoft-cloud-drives-record-fourth-quarter-results-2/

These two companies are completely not comparable. MS is doing what it has always done best: focus on software with a real purpose; now also 'as a service'.