3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?

[ecopsorn]

Hi guys
I'm at a loss because I feel my system can do much better than it actually does.
This is my system I've built in March 2020:

AMD Ryzen 7 3800X (AM4, 3.90GHz, 8-Core)

Noctua NH-D15 Chromax

ASUS Rog Strix X570-E Gaming (AM4, AMD X570, ATX)

MSI GeForce RTX 2070S GAMING X TRIO (8GB)

Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro (2x, 16GB, DDR4-3200, DIMM 288)

Samsung 970 EVO Plus (1000GB, M.2 2280)

Corsair Crystal 570X RGB

2x Corsair iCUE QL120 RGB (120mm, 3x) - 6 fans total

Corsair Commander Pro (External, 6x)

Corsair Lighting Node Pro (RGB, 10, 410mm)

Corsair RM850 *2019* (850W)

First off, the computer takes 57 seconds from a cold boot until I see the login screen... that is ridiculous given my specs above.
I guess I have to reinstall windows yet another time, but I am sure it is much more than just windows.

Keep in mind, I'm a noob, building my own computer since 20 years, but only approx 4 years

Some bullets before I get started:

• I don't run a manual overclock on the CPU, I read in a couple of threads that PBO is superior to a custom overclock, so I just went with it. According to this guide, I've manually set PBO to - PPT 300, TDC 230, EDC 230. Scalar Manual 2x. Max CPU boost AUTO, thermal throttle AUTO
• I run the DOCCP profile
• I run the latest UEFI bios 1408, all the latest chipset drivers, gpu, etc.
• In cinebench 20 I reach a maximum of 4318 pts, which is pretty low when I see numbers up there at 4700 with 3700x cpus

So what I tried the last days is getting my rams OC'd as best as I can, but I don't get better values in cinebench, mostly they get worse and I end up at around 4100pts.

So my question to you guys, what should I do next. I've spent at least 15 hours and countless DRAM calculator profiles to get more out of the rams. Tried frequencies up to 3600 with looser timings, tried adapting primary timings one by one and so on. Even stranger to me is that all ca. 12 DRAM calc profiles I tested didn't work (no POST) when I punched in all numbers. Only when I tweak primary timings, I do get a POST and can get into windows.
Ram latency is also bad at 83.3ns and what is even more troubling for me, tighter timings sometimes end up in WORSE cinebench results than higher ones.

So I'm not even sure if I should keep tweaking ram or if I should mess around with the CPU again. In any case, having a boot time of 57 till windows and around 1m30sec until everything is loaded is more then WTF for me.

I will post some screenshots now, probably you notice something I simply don't see.
I'd really appreciate some help to get going.

This is what I'm running reaching ca. 4318pts in cinebench
3266 frq, Soc 1.025, DRAM 1.4v, PBO Manual (PPT 300, TDC 230, EDC 230. Scalar Manual 2x. Max CPU boost AUTO, thermal throttle AUTO.) - Timings: 16-18-18-18-36 / PROC ODT 53.3

thanks in advance

 

[tabascosauz]

Turn off PBO. I'm not a fan of BZ's "how to properly optimize Matisse on x manufacturer's boards" because every chip and every board is different. Your chip may like PBO, it may only like certain settings in PBO, or it may despise PBO. There's no guarantee. All these N7 process chips that aren't 3950Xs are wildcards. My 3700X literally runs more efficient in every measure without PBO even though it "clocks" lower; it still gets 100% the performance of PBO in CB R20. I get about 4958-4980 in CB R20 with clocks around 41-41.5x. A 3800X should easily be able to attain those clocks at stock settings. CB is not heavily affected by memory.

83ns is crazy latency at 3200/16. My D-die 3200/16-16-16 is 72ns. No single chiplet Matisse CPU should suffer that kind of latency penalty while 1:1.

Long boot times is indicative of long memory training attempts, which is a symptom of low-end or poor quality ICs. I used to suffer boot times anywhere from 5-10 min when I tried building with my first kit, a Vengeance LPX 3200/16. The only respectable higher end IC from Micron is Rev.E. I've never heard anything great about Rev.B. Chances are a different kit will have different boot times.

Vengeance sucks because it's not Corsair's best stuff. Vengeance RGB, Pro and LPX is where they dump all the poorly binned ICs from Micron, Hynix and Samsung that can't make the cut for higher speed and tighter timings kits. If you want better or more consistent ICs, you need to aim for 3200/14 or 3600/16 rated kits at the very least. G.skill is a solid choice at those speeds, 3200/14 will likely be B-die, 3600/16-19-19 will be CJR/DJR and 3600/16-16-16 will be B-die. 3200/16 can literally be anything.

Low end kits there are a few hiding good ICs. Team and Crucial has a lot of these SKUs hiding either B-die, CJR or Rev.E at mundane speeds like 3000/15. That, or G.skill's new Trident RGB/Neo at specifically 3600/16-19-19 are pretty much guaranteed to be CJR or DJR at 3200/16 prices.

Make sure you're on an up to date BIOS with 1.0.0.4 AGESA.

 

[xman2007]

Latency is about right for 3200 16.19.19.36.75, you could try and shoot for 3200 cl 14/16/16/36/60 or even 3400/3600 with the same main timings as you have now as I find higher clocks with slightly higher timings perform better than lower clocks and tighter timings. Also check your trfc as when left to auto it can sometimes be in the 550-600 area which is way too high and does affect latency and bandwidth, I have mine manually set to 400. You will likely want to change the default vram voltage from 1.35 to 1.45 to acheive these with stability, I have also increased my SOC voltage to 1.1375 (AMD recommends 1.15v as max safe) though I have a Ryzen+ and not a Ryzen 2 chip so I'm not sure how the SOC/IMC voltages differ between these 2.

Also Zen 2 performs better when you are running inifinity fabric and ram as close to 1800/1900 as you can, there is a performance penalty the lower you have the IF set, at the minute you are running it at 1600 1:1 (RAM 3200=1600 bus clock x2) so if you can get to 3600 that will give you not only a boost in RAM performance but also CPU and likely that's where you're losing performance in cinebench r20

 

[basco]

he should be getting around 4950 points multi and 500 single in cine20
did ya try without PBO ?
does 48° in bios seem high for a noctua d15 ?
could ya look at your temp during load plz ?

 

[TheLostSwede]

With regards to the boot times, did you install Windows 10 using GPT or MBR? You lose a lot of SSD performance if it's not GPT.
This could be part of the reason for the slow boot times.

This is from a loaner and not my regular machine.

Disabling CSM in the UEFI will save you a few seconds on the boot time, but it's not really what's holding you back.

And a tip, in the UEFI, if you look under Hot Keys, there's an option to take screenshots in the UEF straight to a FAT32 formatted USB drive.

I don't use PBO at all and I still end up boosting 50-75MHz over the official peak boost speeds. Also, forget about any kind of manual overclocking, it's not worth it on these chips. Good CPU cooling is the key thing here.

A couple of small things. Did you check the manual for which DIMM slots to use, as some boards are a bit peculiar about how to populate the slots. Some boards won't even boot if the RAM is in the wrong slots. Apparently A2 and B2 is what you should be using first.
I would also suggest to avoid using D.O.C.P./XMP, but that's just based on my personal experience and it not working well with my RAM.
Have you tried using the DRAM Calculator? It's by far the easiest way to get a good starting place with the memory settings. You don't need to enter all of the things it spits out, you can stop after tRC and then do tRFC and procODT as well. Obviously the Voltage has to be set correctly for the DRAM as well.

DRAM Calculator for Ryzen v1.7.3 Download

DRAM Calculator for Ryzen helps with overclocking your memory on the AMD Ryzen platform. It suggests stable memory timing sets optimized for your m

www.techpowerup.com

Have you checked that the M.2 slot is being assigned the right bandwidth? I.e. 4x, not 2x or something similar to that.

How much thermal paste did you apply and is the heatsink mounted properly? This is where a lot of people mess up and they end up with thermal throttling. Maybe install this and show us some readings during load? https://www.hwinfo.com/download/
Something is going on, as even though I don't get the very best Cinebench numbers, I'm still over 5k on the same CPU.

Post your Cinebench R23 Score

My 3600x @ 4.35ghz

www.techpowerup.com

 

[ecopsorn]

Hey guys - thanks for all the input so far. It's bedtime here, but I will have a whole session tomorrow where I will get into all you suggest.

 

[John Naylor]

1. Im using a box I build 7 years ago ... boots in 15.6 seconds booting off the SSD and 16.5 booting off the SSHD ... so yes you have an issue.

2. My son has almost the exact same build but at the last minute before ordering he switched from your board to an MSI gaming board. However .. just asked my son and he boots to desktop in 23 seconds ... no password so no login screen and lotta stuff happens after that so id guess about 15-16 seconds to login screen.

3. These days with Muskin bowing out pretty much since DDR4 dropped, it's harder to pick RAM with confidence. I addition, RAM you see when new models drop is noit the same RAM you will see 6 months later as all manufacturers switch to cheaper modules after the reviews are out. The Vengeance pros are popular because of the color and RGB options. We mostly build hi end Architecture / Engineering / Surveyor AutoCAD and Gaming Systems with a few Video / Photo Editing boxes now and then. As such, those users who check the performance charts fr those applications are usually going with 9900K over 3900x.

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/relative-performance-games-1920-1080.png

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/photoshop.png

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/premiere-pro.png

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/photogrammetry.png

For Rendering or Text Recognition builds, we do recommend AMD

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/blender.png

https://tpucdn.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/images/ocr-tesseract.png

So we don't get to play with AMD builds as often. Memory is still challenging on Ryzen and, though much improved from previous generations, we haven't had as much success with it. More importantly, it isn't having much of an effect .... no doubt you can run certain benchmarks which show significant performance increases ... but we are practically oriented ... we're concerned with application performance and only those that impact the applications in everyday usage.

When I have played with it, usually look to go 'where man has gone before" and benefit from their efforts

AMD Zen 2 Memory Performance Scaling with Ryzen 9 3900X

We take a close look at memory scaling on AMD's new Zen 2 Ryzen 3900X, testing both application and gaming performance at seven different memory speed and timing combinations ranging from 2400 MHz all the way up to 4000 MHz.

www.techpowerup.com

One truism remains

"Overall, when looking at the application averages, there's barely a five percent performance gain to be had going from DDR4-2400 to DDR4-3600. Once you take a closer look at the individual tests, it becomes apparent that some apps simply like high memory clock, whereas others prefer tighter timings over the highest clock, and then there are those with barely any performance differences between memory speeds at all. "

And that's the Catch-22 regardless of platform ... tweaking for one application / game can hurt you in others. And that's the rub tweaking with benchmark apps has no relevance to real world usages in real world apps ...

As to your problem ... are you seeing anything in the Wndows StartUp or System logs ? Seen anything unusual in an F8 boot ?

 

[dgianstefani]

Yeah, sort out the memory, and get the IF to 1800/3600.
+1 on the 3600/16 or 3200/14 or bust.

 

[moproblems99]

Shouldn't the soc be at 1.1v? 1.025 seems low. Could be why your ram may be having issues. If you have cjr, you are not likely getting less than 16-19-16-36. Mine won't boot 16-18-anything. It does do factory timings at 3800 though.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Shouldn't the soc be at 1.1v? 1.025 seems low. Could be why your ram may be having issues. If you have cjr, you are not likely getting less than 16-19-16-36. Mine won't boot 16-18-anything. It does do factory timings at 3800 though.

Yeah, I'd agree on that, although I can run lower than "factory" timings on my kit at 3800MHz. But 16-19-16-19-36 seems to be as low as you can go on the timings. Anything lower and my system won't boot.

There's something odd about that Taiphoon readout, as it says both Samsung and Micron.
@ecopsorn can you take a screenshot that shows the actual memory ICs being used in Taiphoon, as the one you posted is confusing and not the one that tells us what memory ICs are being used in your modules.

 

[tabascosauz]

@moproblems99 @TheLostSwede yeah, CJR and DJR really don't like going below 16-19. I did have 16-18-18 on DJR for some time and believed it stable at first, but the BSODs and game crashing started creeping in some time after. If the mobo sensors are to be believed, Gigabyte boards can tend to overvolt DRAM slightly regardless of what you enter, so maybe the answer to achieving 16-18 lies in 1.45-1.5V, and maybe the fluctuating overvoltage was what kept mine from crashing immediately. Not comfortable with doing that on DJR, though.

@ecopsorn I had this confused with another thread where the ICs in question were Hynix AFR. Since yours is B-die, just shitty B-die, if you can achieve complete stability at JEDEC or some other lower than XMP speeds, you can experiment with DRAM Calc to see if optimized timings work at higher freqs while pumping a little more voltage. B-die scales and tolerates more voltage than other comparable ICs, but you will need to keep it cool, both because voltage creates more heat and B-die is slightly more sensitive to heat (with respect to stability). 1.4-1.45V should not be an issue, provided you can keep it cool. But knowing the quality of B-die that ends up in Vengeance SKUs, it may not do the trick.

That said, I would just get a different, higher-end kit as mentioned before by a number of people. 3200/14 can be a little expensive, given pretty much only good B-die can meet that standard, but 3600/16-18-18 and 3600/16-19-19 with either Rev.E, CJR, or DJR is quite affordable these days.

 

[basco]

this jedec raw card designer i think is forgettable. if ya mean that lost swede
my samsung b-die tells me hynix.

 

[moproblems99]

@tabascosauz , he could have Samsung A-Die like in my OLOy. It has similar timings to CJR. I haven't yet paired it with my 3900x so I don't know how it does.

 

[ecopsorn]

@everyone
The amount of useful information in your responses is mindblowing. Why the f* didn't I come to this forum before I bought the parts, could have saved me some brain cells.
I'm gonna quote it all. The next 6-8h starting from now, I'm gonna try everything to follow your suggestions.
If everybody suggests I should get better ram, so be it. For the time being, I'm trying to do what I can with the vengeance suckers. I already thought I won the lottery with B-Die, but apparently it's still crap. I could run with 3200 timings of around 14-15-15 which I also thought is pretty good. Results however were still bad, even worse than with higher timings... The least luck I have with tweaking tRFC. Every time i punch in a number there that is suggested by DRAM calc 1.7.0, system won't POST.

Turn off PBO.

83ns is crazy latency at 3200/16. My D-die 3200/16-16-16 is 72ns. No single chiplet Matisse CPU should suffer that kind of latency penalty while 1:1.

Long boot times is indicative of long memory training attempts, which is a symptom of low-end or poor quality ICs. I used to suffer boot times anywhere from 5-10 min when I tried building with my first kit, a Vengeance LPX 3200/16. The only respectable higher end IC from Micron is Rev.E. I've never heard anything great about Rev.B. Chances are a different kit will have different boot times.

Vengeance sucks because it's not Corsair's best stuff. Vengeance RGB, Pro and LPX is where they dump all the poorly binned ICs from Micron, Hynix and Samsung that can't make the cut for higher speed and tighter timings kits. If you want better or more consistent ICs, you need to aim for 3200/14 or 3600/16 rated kits at the very least. G.skill is a solid choice at those speeds, 3200/14 will likely be B-die, 3600/16-19-19 will be CJR/DJR and 3600/16-16-16 will be B-die. 3200/16 can literally be anything.

Make sure you're on an up to date BIOS with 1.0.0.4 AGESA.

@tabascosauz

• I did try to turn off PBO completely, it didn't change the boot speed and cinebench had also bad stats. AI Suite 3 showed me a clock speed of constant 4.1 when PBO was turned off.
• By "long memory training attempts" you mean, I punched in too many different settings? If so, did that hurt my ram? I have tried at least 60-100 different timings, voltages, frequencies.
• About BIOS, I googled 1.0.0.4 AGESA I never heared it before. It seems that my up to date bios 1408 has it covered. Asus introduced it about 4 BIOS versions earlier.
• About Corsair, to be honest I was pretty stupid how I did my build: 1st I got it all shiny with fans, RGB all over, 2nd I tried to make the PC quite, had to replace GPU and all case fans and CPU cooler, and now at the end 3rd I'm bothering about performance. I could hit myself for it because I won't be able to return parts anymore except for warranty. Still at this point I don't even care anymore if I have to buy more components lol, I just sell the ones that seem to suck a bit cheaper.

Latency is about right for 3200 16.19.19.36.75, you could try and shoot for 3200 cl 14/16/16/36/60 or even 3400/3600 with the same main timings as you have now as I find higher clocks with slightly higher timings perform better than lower clocks and tighter timings. Also check your trfc as when left to auto it can sometimes be in the 550-600 area which is way too high and does affect latency and bandwidth, I have mine manually set to 400. You will likely want to change the default vram voltage from 1.35 to 1.45 to acheive these with stability, I have also increased my SOC voltage to 1.1375 (AMD recommends 1.15v as max safe) though I have a Ryzen+ and not a Ryzen 2 chip so I'm not sure how the SOC/IMC voltages differ between these 2.

Also Zen 2 performs better when you are running inifinity fabric and ram as close to 1800/1900 as you can, there is a performance penalty the lower you have the IF set, at the minute you are running it at 1600 1:1 (RAM 3200=1600 bus clock x2) so if you can get to 3600 that will give you not only a boost in RAM performance but also CPU and likely that's where you're losing performance in cinebench r20

@xman2007

• I did try your suggestions already actually, but gonna reproduce them again today and report back. I did notice that tRFC is in the 500 range when not entered manually, but often if I do enter a value, system won't POST. Gonna try again with 400 which should definitely work.
• I did try to set the voltage to 1.45 once, but never went above 1.1 for SOC. Will try and report back.
• I didn't know that 1800 IF is the desired value, hell I would have bought 3600 rams in the first place, but nobodyin the other forums thought that my choice of ram was bad...
• I couldn't get a post yet with 3600, so I will try again with very loose primary timings and report back

he should be getting around 4950 points multi and 500 single in cine20
did ya try without PBO ?
does 48° in bios seem high for a noctua d15 ?
could ya look at your temp during load plz ?

@basco

• Did try without PBO, get even worse cinebench results
• I can run the noctua only with 1 fan because the 2nd optional fan doesn't fit because the corsair vengeance ram are too tall. Another reason to get rid of the corsair even though I do like the RGB a lot. Do you know if the G.skillz ones would fit with a 2nd fan? I'm running the Corsair Crystal 570X RGB case. The second fan would block all 4 ram slots anyway, so I wouldn't see any RGB anyway.
• I have to admit I did have a lot of troubles getting that cooler in place. Somehow I really struggled getting those screw holes aligned. It might be that thermal paste is not aligned in a best way, but I did the one dot in the middle strategy.
• About temps. One reason that I bought the noctua after trying the prism first was the temps. It got more quite which is good, but the idle temp of the CPU is at 56°C acc. to Ryzen Master and in AI Suite 3 it jumps from 47°C to 56°C constantly, don't know that's up with that. I thought when PBO is disabled, temp should also be steady. The different temp readings confuse me.
• Running cinebench 20, the CPU is steady at 80°C - which I think is really high and probably this is also a probably why I score so low.
• For the heck of it, I tried to run cinebench with 100% case fan speeds. This cools the CPU down 2°C so 78°C under load. The score was identical 4216 currently LOL
• To have this also covered: I have 6 case fans in a positive pressure setup. The 3 in the front push the air in (around 600rpm when idle and the 2 on top and 1 on rear pull the air out with 30rpm higher so, ca. 630rpm

With regards to the boot times, did you install Windows 10 using GPT or MBR? You lose a lot of SSD performance if it's not GPT.
This could be part of the reason for the slow boot times.

This is from a loaner and not my regular machine.

View attachment 154369

Disabling CSM in the UEFI will save you a few seconds on the boot time, but it's not really what's holding you back.

And a tip, in the UEFI, if you look under Hot Keys, there's an option to take screenshots in the UEF straight to a FAT32 formatted USB drive.

I don't use PBO at all and I still end up boosting 50-75MHz over the official peak boost speeds. Also, forget about any kind of manual overclocking, it's not worth it on these chips. Good CPU cooling is the key thing here.

A couple of small things. Did you check the manual for which DIMM slots to use, as some boards are a bit peculiar about how to populate the slots. Some boards won't even boot if the RAM is in the wrong slots. Apparently A2 and B2 is what you should be using first.
I would also suggest to avoid using D.O.C.P./XMP, but that's just based on my personal experience and it not working well with my RAM.
Have you tried using the DRAM Calculator? It's by far the easiest way to get a good starting place with the memory settings. You don't need to enter all of the things it spits out, you can stop after tRC and then do tRFC and procODT as well. Obviously the Voltage has to be set correctly for the DRAM as well.

DRAM Calculator for Ryzen v1.7.3 Download

DRAM Calculator for Ryzen helps with overclocking your memory on the AMD Ryzen platform. It suggests stable memory timing sets optimized for your m

www.techpowerup.com

Have you checked that the M.2 slot is being assigned the right bandwidth? I.e. 4x, not 2x or something similar to that.

How much thermal paste did you apply and is the heatsink mounted properly? This is where a lot of people mess up and they end up with thermal throttling. Maybe install this and show us some readings during load? https://www.hwinfo.com/download/
Something is going on, as even though I don't get the very best Cinebench numbers, I'm still over 5k on the same CPU.

Post your Cinebench R23 Score

My 3600x @ 4.35ghz

www.techpowerup.com

@TheLostSwede

• To be honest, I'm pretty sure I installed it on MBR. I'm new to M.2 and didn't know I had to pay attention to it. However, it seems that I can't check it in windows? my window is blank here. How can I be sure?
• 
• Never heard of CSM but I will try to find it and disable it
• About the PBO and OC. I seem not to get it. When I completely disable PBO, isn't the CPU than supposed to run at the 3.9GHz it's supposed to without manual OC? I have currently disabled PBO and AI Suite 3 shows 4275MHz
• I did check the dimm slots. They are correctly in A2 and B2
• About DOCP/XMP, here I'm also at a loss. If I disable it how you suggested, my ram runs at like 2133 MHz, than all is worse. what am I missing?
• DRAM calc - oh yes, I have tried about 12 different settings from dram calc across all possible frequencies, FAST and SAFE preset, etc. None of them works when I punch in all numbers. I only get it to work when I tweak only a few numbers (obviously the primary ones up to tRC and sometimes tRFC and procODT including the voltage playing around with DRAM voltage and SOC
• M.2 slot - need to check - will report back, here is a benchmark (I didn't check whether this is supposed to be good or bad)
• 
• Here are some temp stats when I run cinebench - it looks baaaaad:
• 

2. My son has almost the exact same build but at the last minute before ordering he switched from your board to an MSI gaming board. However .. just asked my son and he boots to desktop in 23 seconds ... no password so no login screen and lotta stuff happens after that so id guess about 15-16 seconds to login screen.

3. These days with Muskin bowing out pretty much since DDR4 dropped, it's harder to pick RAM with confidence. I addition, RAM you see when new models drop is noit the same RAM you will see 6 months later as all manufacturers switch to cheaper modules after the reviews are out. The Vengeance pros are popular because of the color and RGB options. We mostly build hi end Architecture / Engineering / Surveyor AutoCAD and Gaming Systems with a few Video / Photo Editing boxes now and then. As such, those users who check the performance charts fr those applications are usually going with 9900K over 3900x.

As to your problem ... are you seeing anything in the Wndows StartUp or System logs ? Seen anything unusual in an F8 boot ?

@John Naylor

• Are you suggesting that my motherboard sucks or may be faulty? If I'd really know that the MOBO is the reason, I'd replace it in a heartbeat, but the MOBO is probably the one part in my rig I spent the most research time and watched countless reviews that all praise the board.
• Would you than say it is currently a bad time to buy ram? well if I have to replace it, I got not choice anyway, I'd want the rams replaced asap
• I don't see anything at startup to be honest. Just the Rog Strix logo and than black screen for about 12 seconds and than the login screen appears lol. I'm running 3 monitors, but I doubt it has anything to do with it. Never tried an F8 boot with this rig, will try and report back

Shouldn't the soc be at 1.1v? 1.025 seems low. Could be why your ram may be having issues. If you have cjr, you are not likely getting less than 16-19-16-36. Mine won't boot 16-18-anything. It does do factory timings at 3800 though.

@moproblems99

• I did let it at 1.1 for a while as well and tested several timings, not better but I will try again

ICs

@moproblems99 @TheLostSwede yeah, CJR and DJR really don't like going below 16-19. I did have 16-18-18 on DJR for some time and believed it stable at first, but the BSODs and game crashing started creeping in some time after. If the mobo sensors are to be believed, Gigabyte boards can tend to overvolt DRAM slightly regardless of what you enter, so maybe the answer to achieving 16-18 lies in 1.45-1.5V, and maybe the fluctuating overvoltage was what kept mine from crashing immediately. Not comfortable with doing that on DJR, though.

@ecopsorn I had this confused with another thread where the ICs in question were Hynix AFR. Since yours is B-die, just shitty B-die, if you can achieve complete stability at JEDEC or some other lower than XMP speeds, you can experiment with DRAM Calc to see if optimized timings work at higher freqs while pumping a little more voltage. B-die scales and tolerates more voltage than other comparable ICs, but you will need to keep it cool, both because voltage creates more heat and B-die is slightly more sensitive to heat (with respect to stability). 1.4-1.45V should not be an issue, provided you can keep it cool. But knowing the quality of B-die that ends up in Vengeance SKUs, it may not do the trick.

That said, I would just get a different, higher-end kit as mentioned before by a number of people. 3200/14 can be a little expensive, given pretty much only good B-die can meet that standard, but 3600/16-18-18 and 3600/16-19-19 with either Rev.E, CJR, or DJR is quite affordable these days.

• I will try to reach 3600 now with loose timings, but it looks like that I'm gonna have to get new ram.
• Here is a full taiphoon readout:
• 

One more thing to everyone. If we are talking benchmarks, my GPU also seems to underperform as hell.
I get these scores in Heaven 4:
Stock settings: Score: 1969 / FPS: 78.2
+111PL, +125core, +825memory: Score: 2223 / FPS 88.3
according to this review, they are talking about 150-160fps, wtf.
GPU temp is around 72°C when the OC is applied and under full benchmark load.

 

[thesmokingman]

The weak link in your build is that ram. Corsair ram sucks on Zen 2 general. I use the same board btw, love it. I run my cpu stock, docp enabled, have pbo disabled, cpu voltage on auto. You don't have to touch the SOC or any other voltages. Running dram calc on that ram is not gonna be fun.

You clearly are not hitting the stock performance that you should. What bios are you on?

 

[Decryptor009]

Turn off PBO. I'm not a fan of BZ's "how to properly optimize Matisse on x manufacturer's boards" because every chip and every board is different. Your chip may like PBO, it may only like certain settings in PBO, or it may despise PBO. There's no guarantee. All these N7 process chips that aren't 3950Xs are wildcards. My 3700X literally runs more efficient in every measure without PBO even though it "clocks" lower; it still gets 100% the performance of PBO in CB R20. I get about 4958-4980 in CB R20 with clocks around 41-41.5x. A 3800X should easily be able to attain those clocks at stock settings. CB is not heavily affected by memory.

83ns is crazy latency at 3200/16. My D-die 3200/16-16-16 is 72ns. No single chiplet Matisse CPU should suffer that kind of latency penalty while 1:1.

Long boot times is indicative of long memory training attempts, which is a symptom of low-end or poor quality ICs. I used to suffer boot times anywhere from 5-10 min when I tried building with my first kit, a Vengeance LPX 3200/16. The only respectable higher end IC from Micron is Rev.E. I've never heard anything great about Rev.B. Chances are a different kit will have different boot times.

Vengeance sucks because it's not Corsair's best stuff. Vengeance RGB, Pro and LPX is where they dump all the poorly binned ICs from Micron, Hynix and Samsung that can't make the cut for higher speed and tighter timings kits. If you want better or more consistent ICs, you need to aim for 3200/14 or 3600/16 rated kits at the very least. G.skill is a solid choice at those speeds, 3200/14 will likely be B-die, 3600/16-19-19 will be CJR/DJR and 3600/16-16-16 will be B-die. 3200/16 can literally be anything.

Low end kits there are a few hiding good ICs. Team and Crucial has a lot of these SKUs hiding either B-die, CJR or Rev.E at mundane speeds like 3000/15. That, or G.skill's new Trident RGB/Neo at specifically 3600/16-19-19 are pretty much guaranteed to be CJR or DJR at 3200/16 prices.

Make sure you're on an up to date BIOS with 1.0.0.4 AGESA.

His latency is higher than my non overclockable 3000mhz LPX memory.

 

[thesmokingman]

His latency is higher than my non overclockable 3000mhz LPX memory.

There's actually minor perf gains going from 80ns to 65ns, so that is something to worry after fixing the everything else. Also, as I wrote, it will be a pita working with that Corsair ram.

 

[tabascosauz]

@moproblems99 Thaiphoon shows B-die for his Vengeance RGB. I'm an idiot too for reading the Micron tag at first, I don't even think Rev.B is a thing.

@ecopsorn have you ever updated the BIOS? Or is it still on the revision that it had when you bought the board? I would update to the latest available BIOS then see if that fixes your temps, because they're too damn high for a 3800X under a NH-D15. Way, way too high. There's either something wrong with the cooler mounting, the case has 0 airflow, or it could be down to outdated boosting behaviour thanks to the outdated BIOS.

Stock SoC on my 3700X is about 1.08V I think. I've not needed to run it any higher to sustain D-die 3200/16-16-16 or DJR 3600/16-19-20. 1.03V is on the low side for SoC, not sure why the default SoC is so low. 1.1V on the other hand is as high as you should ever go on Matisse, and the DRAM voltage can actually be higher than what you set it on some boards. Over the SVI2 bus which should be most accurate for Vcore and SoC, it regularly fluctuates up to 1.095V or so on a 1.08V setting.

Memory training is something the board does every time at boot, before it POSTs. I'm not ready to claim any sort of concrete correlations here but JEDEC (stock non-XMP speeds), unstable freq/timings, or bad quality sticks can increase that delay as the system tries again and again to train.

 

[moproblems99]

One more thing to everyone. If we are talking benchmarks, my GPU also seems to underperform as hell.

I wouldn't worry about the GPU until you get the 'core' working correctly. Without a solid core, the rest of the system will perform like shit.

 

[TheLostSwede]

@ecopsorn you need to hit the populate button

CSM is in the boot options.

No, PBO is an overclocking thing. The CPU should still boost just fine.
3.9GHz is the lowest working clock speed of the CPU when it's being utilised at a high degree, but it if it's only loaded a bit, the frequency can be lower. The boost clock is "up to" 4.5GHz, but it can apparently go a bit higher.

If you disable XMP, you need to manually set the memory to 3200MHz and 1.35V, as well as enter some of the timings in advanced memory settings or something similar. What XMP does, is that it reads an EEPROM chip that has a set of pre-programmed parameters in it and then the UEFI takes these settings as the settings for the RAM. However, XMP is an Intel standard and the settings don't always work well with AMD CPUs. Hence why I wouldn't used it.

If you have XMP on, it might override the DRAM calculator, so turn it off before you enter those settings. As I said, no need to punch in all the numbers, that's for extreme tuning and in general is a waste of time.

SSD performance is weird as... Sequential speeds are fine, but your random IOPS are terrible. You should be hitting 600k read IOPS, so you're at about 1/5th of that, which helps at least in part, explain the slow boot speeds.

Your idle temps are quite high indeed, load temps are acceptable, you have an air cooler after all and these CPUs can go up to 95C.
That said, it's a giant air cooler and I expected lower temps. I would check that the cooler is installed properly.

The RAM is using Samsung B-dies for sure, so it should work, but apparently not all that great.

@moproblems99 Thaiphoon shows B-die for his Vengeance RGB. I'm an idiot too for reading the Micron tag at first, I don't even think Rev.B is a thing.

I was looking at the same thing

 

[ecopsorn]

@ecopsorn have you ever updated the BIOS? Or is it still on the revision that it had when you bought the board? I would update to the latest available BIOS then see if that fixes your temps, because they're too damn high for a 3800X under a NH-D15. Way, way too high. There's either something wrong with the cooler mounting, the case has 0 airflow, or it could be down to outdated boosting behaviour thanks to the outdated BIOS.

Stock SoC on my 3700X is about 1.08V I think. I've not needed to run it any higher to sustain D-die 3200/16-16-16 or DJR 3600/16-19-20. 1.03V is on the low side for SoC, not sure why the default SoC is so low. 1.1V on the other hand is as high as you should ever go on Matisse, and the DRAM voltage can actually be higher than what you set it on some boards. Over the SVI2 bus which should be most accurate for Vcore and SoC, it regularly fluctuates up to 1.095V or so on a 1.08V setting.

Memory training is something the board does every time at boot, before it POSTs. I'm not ready to claim any sort of concrete correlations here but JEDEC (stock non-XMP speeds), unstable freq/timings, or bad quality sticks can increase that delay as the system tries again and again to train.

@tabascosauz

• I already wrote to another user that I'm currently running the latest Asus Bios 1408 for my board. I did the first Bios update immediately after I put it all together for the first time, the bios was 1408 than. I did have the same temp. issues with 1407 as I have with 1408.
• I do have a good airflow I think. of course I could rearrange the fans if that would help, as I wrote, I currently have 3 push and 3 pull. The pull ones have 30rpm more than the push ones. But even at 100% case fan speed, the CPU only gets 2°C cooler and still benches like shit

I wouldn't worry about the GPU until you get the 'core' working correctly. Without a solid core, the rest of the system will perform like shit.

haha thanks, will keep that in mind

@ecopsorn you need to hit the populate button

CSM is in the boot options.

No, PBO is an overclocking thing. The CPU should still boost just fine.
3.9GHz is the lowest working clock speed of the CPU when it's being utilised at a high degree, but it if it's only loaded a bit, the frequency can be lower. The boost clock is "up to" 4.5GHz, but it can apparently go a bit higher.

If you disable XMP, you need to manually set the memory to 3200MHz and 1.35V, as well as enter some of the timings in advanced memory settings or something similar. What XMP does, is that it reads an EEPROM chip that has a set of pre-programmed parameters in it and then the UEFI takes these settings as the settings for the RAM. However, XMP is an Intel standard and the settings don't always work well with AMD CPUs. Hence why I wouldn't used it.

If you have XMP on, it might override the DRAM calculator, so turn it off before you enter those settings. As I said, no need to punch in all the numbers, that's for extreme tuning and in general is a waste of time.

SSD performance is weird as... Sequential speeds are fine, but your random IOPS are terrible. You should be hitting 600k read IOPS, so you're at about 1/5th of that, which helps at least in part, explain the slow boot speeds.

Your idle temps are quite high indeed, load temps are acceptable, you have an air cooler after all and these CPUs can go up to 95C.
That said, it's a giant air cooler and I expected lower temps. I would check that the cooler is installed properly.

The RAM is using Samsung B-dies for sure, so it should work, but apparently not all that great.


I was looking at the same thing

@TheLostSwede

• What populate button, where?
• Hmm, really don't see that CSM under boot options, just smth about secure boot. I will come back with a screenshot
• Ok, that XMP stuff would explain why DRAM calc values don't work for me. - going back to bios and try some more
• Oh man, so if my SSD performance also sucks than wtf, can't exchange every single part of my build

 

[TheLostSwede]

@TheLostSwede

• What populate button, where?
• Hmm, really don't see that CSM under boot options, just smth about secure boot. I will come back with a screenshot
• Ok, that XMP stuff would explain why DRAM calc values don't work for me. - going back to bios and try some more
• Oh man, so if my SSD performance also sucks than wtf, can't exchange every single part of my build

The one at the bottom left...

Not familiar with your UEFI, so I can't say for the CSM option, but it's somewhere around the drive options.

As I said, if you're MBR instead of GPT, that can affect the SSD performance negatively.
I'm sure the SSD is fine, as the sequential performance is where it's supposed to be, something else is going on with regards to the random performance. Just out of curiosity, not that it should matter too much, but which slot did you put the SSD in?

 

[ecopsorn]

The one at the bottom left...
Not familiar with your UEFI, so I can't say for the CSM option, but it's somewhere around the drive options.

As I said, if you're MBR instead of GPT, that can affect the SSD performance negatively.
I'm sure the SSD is fine, as the sequential performance is where it's supposed to be, something else is going on with regards to the random performance. Just out of curiosity, not that it should matter too much, but which slot did you put the SSD in?

• Oh man, lol yes populated it now and there we go, I did install on GPT, one possible explanation for boot times gone, noooo
• 
• I found the CSM option now, it was right there in front of my eyes lol - but guess what, it was already DISABLED - so SSD also screwed?
• I put it in the upper socket (M.2_1):
• 
• And your question about bandwith 4x or 2x. I went to the bios settings and it is all on AUTO, except PCIEx16_2 Bandwith is onX8 Mode
• I did try to put in 3600/1800 but it doesn't boot no matter what timings I choose.

And @TheLostSwede , do I need the AI Overclock Tuner settings on Auto or Manual instead of DOCP?

 

[tabascosauz]

@ecopsorn Are you just using the NT-H1 that came with the D15? It doesn't sound like case airflow is the culprit here. The thing about idle temperatures on Matisse is that a idle peak of 50-60C is just fine, because of how Zen 2 cores respond quickly to load, but idling around 50C and never dipping below is somewhat concerning on a top of the line air cooler like the D15. I idle around 30-40C and peak to 50C once in a blue moon on just a U9S, a cooler that's only 3/4 the height and just over 1/2 the heatsink mass of the D15.

As for load, the CPU itself starts taking off performance when it starts getting too warm. Given your idle temperatures, it very much feels like the 3800X is holding itself back (ie. load temps would be much higher if Matisse wasn't as smart as it is regarding thermal management), giving you the terrible performance you're seeing. It definitely sounds like there's a contact issue. I'd check the cooler mounting, redo the paste application, and/or check your fan speeds in BIOS.

Secufirm can be a little bit fiddly sometimes with regards to tightening down both of the spring-loaded screws. If you fully tighten one before engaging the other's threads, the other won't want to tighten. Align the cooler, then tighten a little bit at a time until both screws have barely engaged their threads, then tighten them down until they stop, no overtightening.

Honestly, it sounds like you should just try a better kit of RAM. And if you're lucky, the retailer you buy from has a 14-day or 1 month hassle free return window where you can just return it for your money back if you find a way to live with the Vengeance RGB.

Vengeance RGB has a large heatspreader. If I'm not mistaken, it's a bit bigger than all G.skill Trident models.

Have you stepped up the SoC voltage yet to around 1.08-1.09V to see if that does the trick?

 

[TheLostSwede]

• Oh man, lol yes populated it now and there we go, I did install on GPT, one possible explanation for boot times gone, noooo
• View attachment 154524
• I found the CSM option now, it was right there in front of my eyes lol - but guess what, it was already DISABLED - so SSD also screwed?
• I put it in the upper socket (M.2_1):
• View attachment 154531
• And your question about bandwith 4x or 2x. I went to the bios settings and it is all on AUTO, except PCIEx16_2 Bandwith is onX8 Mode
• I did try to put in 3600/1800 but it doesn't boot no matter what timings I choose.

And @TheLostSwede , do I need the AI Overclock Tuner settings on Auto or Manual instead of DOCP?

Well, then I'm out of suggestions, but there's something odd going on with the SSD. Maybe try Crystal Disk Mark for laugh? It's a storage benchmark.
Everything else seems correct.

As I said, I'm not familiar with your board, but I wouldn't use any AI anything in the UEFI.