Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

[lexluthermiester]

Educate yourself.

No, he has a good point. Nature itself pollutes in massive ways that we are not or can not track.

Nowhere near as much as by humans.

You don't know that because no one knows that.

Educate yourself.

Please take your own advice.

But, I also believe in 10 years fusion will be with us.

Fixed that for you. France and the US are working closely on the reactor being finished in the south of France. It will be operational in a few years and the lessons learned will benefit us all within this decade.

 

[the54thvoid]

Fixed that for you. France and the US are working closely on the reactor being finished in the south of France. It will be operational in a few years and the lessons learned will benefit us all within this decade.

I think we'll have it working on some scale but for global implications, perhaps a little longer. It would be amazing to see an operational, large scale fusion power plant in my lifetime.

Also, ITER is a joint venture between 35 nations:

What is ITER?

ITER ("The Way" in Latin) is one of the most ambitious energy projects in the world today. In southern France, 35 nations* are collaborating to build the world's largest tokamak, a magnetic fusion device that has been designed to prove the feasibility of fusion as a large-scale and carbon-free...

www.iter.org

Europe is responsible for the largest portion of construction costs (45.6 percent); the remainder is shared equally by China, India, Japan, Korea, Russia and the US (9.1 percent each).

 

[Assimilator]

No, he has a good point. Nature itself pollutes in massive ways that we are not or can not track.

Good job of making an argument you can't prove.

You don't know that because no one knows that.

Wrong, e.g. https://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm

Please take your own advice.

I have, which is why I post here. You should consider my advice too.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I think we'll have it working on some scale but for global implications, perhaps a little longer. It would be amazing to see an operational, large scale fusion power plant in my lifetime.

Also, ITER is a joint venture between 35 nations:

What is ITER?

ITER ("The Way" in Latin) is one of the most ambitious energy projects in the world today. In southern France, 35 nations* are collaborating to build the world's largest tokamak, a magnetic fusion device that has been designed to prove the feasibility of fusion as a large-scale and carbon-free...

www.iter.org

There's a lot out there of varying designs:

List of fusion experiments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor 10.7 MW reached
Culham Centre for Fusion Energy 16.1 MW reached
ITER 500 MW goal
Soonest/Smallest Private-Funded Affordable, Robust, Compact reactor 100 MW goal
IGNITOR 100 MW goal
China Fusion Engineering Test Reactor 1000 MW goal
Korean fusion demonstration tokamak reactor 2200 MW goal

 

[the54thvoid]

There's a lot out there of varying designs:

List of fusion experiments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor 10.7 MW reached
Culham Centre for Fusion Energy 16.1 MW reached
ITER 500 MW goal
Soonest/Smallest Private-Funded Affordable, Robust, Compact reactor 100 MW goal
IGNITOR 100 MW goal
China Fusion Engineering Test Reactor 1000 MW goal
Korean fusion demonstration tokamak reactor 2200 MW goal

The viability is uncertain but I have always liked this - maybe just becasue of the design. I mean, those lasers...

National Ignition Facility sets new laser energy record

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's (LLNL) National Ignition Facility (NIF) laser system has set a new record, firing 2.15 megajoules (MJ) of energy to its target chamber—a 15 percent improvement over NIF's design specification of 1.8 MJ, and more than 10 percent higher than the previous...

phys.org

 

[lexluthermiester]

Also, ITER is a joint venture between 35 nations:

True, but France and the US are the largest contributors.

Good job of making an argument you can't prove.

And that you can't disprove.

Wrong, e.g. https://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm

LOL! If you're going to make a scientific citation, next time use something with more credibility and merit instead of a junk publication.

 

[the54thvoid]

True, but France and the US are the largest contributors.

And that you can't disprove.

LOL! If you're going to make a scientific citation, next time use something with more credibility and merit instead of a junk publication.

ITER's own 'about us' states US contribution is 9.1%. Same as China, Russia, etc.

 

[lexluthermiester]

ITER's own 'about us' states US contribution is 9.1%. Same as China, Russia, etc.

That's just the money side of it. There's more to a project that involved than just the money. We can split hairs all day. The end point is that fusion generated power is not 100 years away. It's only about 10, maybe a little less, maybe a little more.

 

[the54thvoid]

That's just the money side of it. There's more to a project that involved than just the money. We can split hairs all day. The end point is that fusion generated power is not 100 years away. It's only about 10, maybe a little less, maybe a little more.

You made a statement about US contributions being the highest along with France which just isn't true and I'm not sure why you felt the need to pluck it from thin air. This isn't splitting hairs - It's disingenuous to exaggerate a nations involvement and also somewhat disappointing from an analytical standpoint. But you know what's even more weird - I'm about to praise Trump. The US was actually going into arrears and looking to cut it's budget further but the Trump administration picked up the ball by not cutting it's funding for the next few years.

 

[Assimilator]

And that you can't disprove.

Please do some research on the term "burden of proof" before showing your ignorance here again.

LOL! If you're going to make a scientific citation, next time use something with more credibility and merit instead of a junk publication.

Because of course you, an absolute nobody, are more knowledgeable than someone who is an actual professor at an actual university: https://www.skepticalscience.com/about.shtml

 

[lexluthermiester]

You made a statement about US contributions being the highest along with France which just isn't true and I'm not sure why you felt the need to pluck it from thin air.

Because finances are not the only contribution to be made. I did not mean to minimize the contributions of other nations, only to highlight that France and the US are working hard together to make this technology work.

Please do some research on the term "burden of proof" before showing your ignorance here again.

Yeah, keep thinking that.

Because of course you, an absolute nobody, are more knowledgeable than someone who is an actual professor at an actual university: https://www.skepticalscience.com/about.shtml

It's still an agenda based junk publication with no credibility or merit.

 

[Assimilator]

It's still an agenda based junk publication with no credibility or merit.

Attack the credibility when you can't attack the facts.

Any other tired old tropes of ignorance you'd like to share with us?

 

[R0H1T]

As to your question... a curious thought came to mind: CO2 should have seen significant flattening because of the massive reduction in transportation and production thanks to COVID-19, yeah?

That's one data point from one observatory. I could think of a number of reasons why it may not have seen a blip in CO^2 numbers but then I'd rather have more data from various places across the world & unless we get that the single observation in & of itself means nothing.

 

[tabascosauz]

The overwhelming evidence points to human action altering our environment. Sea level rise is the current issue and while it rises and falls over geological timescales, our action with regard to global warming is exacerbating it. That means coastal areas more prone to flooding, and unfortunately, a lot of the worlds population lives in coastal areas. Small changes in our environment, attributred to us, are felt when mother nature does her thing. We amplify the very things you mention. And as things get worse, our amplification will be far greater.

However, you're 100% right with the management of our world. Plastics, waste, over-consumption of resources. We're doing a shit job of responsibly 'harvesting' the planet. But that world becomes harder to manage because of the effects of global warming. We humans think in very short timescales. I'll not see devastating effects of our action on nature in my lifetime (I'm 46). But my niece might - she's 10. If she has kids - it will be a very different world. I read a recent review about wet-bulb temp limits and in some places it is nearing human physiological limits. In other words, parts of the planet are trending toward heat levels that will kill those without air-con all around.

But, I also beleive in 100 years fusion will be with us. And that will be a game-changer. Perhaps a little late to the party but I think humanity might just get by, as long it is continues to be responsible now. Of course, the greatest threat is the self-interest, as you say, of those who profit from those who manage the systems we require. And those people all manipulate government.

I don't think most skeptics realize that we're not really killing the environment as much as we're killing ourselves with our harmful activities. That's the kicker. It's not a political issue when it pretty much amounts to collective suicide. Of course you could afford to be a skeptic if you're the CEO of Nestle, for example; your way of life would be highly insulated from the fallout of climate change.

Nature has a weird way of cleverly making use of what it has. Even if we trash the planet into an uninhabitable hellhole within the century, life goes on. New microbes and insects may not be in the lovable forms with which we are familiar, but living things nonetheless.

We don't have that resilience. People die from drought and famine all the time, and endure disease from the shocking quality of water that they have to drink. Every time some dipshit cares for the "health" of an engine more than that of his own body by deleting his Cummins or Powerstroke, more people contract respiratory diseases from the PM. When we let bees decline by the wayside or do insanely stupid things like introduce Asian giant hornets to the West coast (since 2019 in Vancouver), it's our agricultural industries that are reeling from the blow (and a small number of our community that are dying directly from running into the hornets). When wildfires run rampant here with every year hotter and seeking to outdo the previous, it's our homes, livelihoods and sometimes our lives at stake; "nature" just regards it as a normal reset for a healthier ecosystem down the line.

Personally I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to make it to a ripe old age. I get heatstroke extremely easily to the point of hospitalization. Without AC, I'd be out on my ear.

Climate change is no longer about having the conscience to be eco-friendly. It's now about saving our own goddamn asses, especially if we don't step up in finding ways to leave this planet.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Attack the credibility when you can't attack the facts.

I can do both, but it's not worth the time and effort to debate this subject with someone like yourself. Example...

Any other tired old tropes of ignorance you'd like to share with us?

...you are making personal attacks at others and myself and yet you call us ignorant?

 

[Assimilator]

I can do both, but it's not worth the time and effort to debate this subject with someone like yourself. Example...

...you are making personal attacks at others and myself and yet you call us ignorant?

You came into a thread about science and made two claims, while insulting me for no good reason. I demonstrated that the first claim was unscientific and therefore irrelevant and suggested you read up on a fundamental basic of the scientific method, and refuted the second one with scientific evidence.

You responded by getting indignant about being called out on your BS and disparaging the evidence presented, then I stated a fact, namely that you ignorant, because the behaviour you displayed in your response is the textbook definition of wilful ignorance. You became more indignant, and in your latest post you've gone full victim mode.

At no point in this exchange have you demonstrated a willingness or ability to back up your claims with evidence, nor that you are willing or able to accept evidence that contrasts with what you believe. Again, the textbook definition of wilful ignorance.

Wilful ignorance has no place in a discussion about science. Until or unless you are willing to temper your ignorance, I suggest you refrain from polluting this thread with what can only be called drivel. Facts don't care about your feelings.

 

[Peter1986C]

@Assimilator, I think you are wasting your time with him.

 

[the54thvoid]

Please try to keep things impersonal please. It's hard enough keeping the focus on genuine science.

 

[lexluthermiester]

You came into a thread about science and made two claims, while insulting me for no good reason. I demonstrated that the first claim was unscientific and therefore irrelevant and suggested you read up on a fundamental basic of the scientific method, and refuted the second one with scientific evidence.

You responded by getting indignant about being called out on your BS and disparaging the evidence presented, then I stated a fact, namely that you ignorant, because the behaviour you displayed in your response is the textbook definition of wilful ignorance. You became more indignant, and in your latest post you've gone full victim mode.

At no point in this exchange have you demonstrated a willingness or ability to back up your claims with evidence, nor that you are willing or able to accept evidence that contrasts with what you believe. Again, the textbook definition of wilful ignorance.

Wilful ignorance has no place in a discussion about science. Until or unless you are willing to temper your ignorance, I suggest you refrain from polluting this thread with what can only be called drivel. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Any who can read can see what really happened and can tell that your version of events are little more than drivel. @A Computer Guy made a few good points that have merit. You belittled him with the whole "educate yourself" type comments(advice you desperately need to follow). Then when I chimed in on the matter you turned your abusive BS on me. The pattern here is clear for anyone to see.

Getting back to the point "A Computer Guy" made, the Earth itself does, in fact, introduce a great amount of what we would consider pollutants into the environment on a daily basis. This can not be ignored nor trivialized.

 

[ARF]

I don't think most skeptics realize that we're not really killing the environment as much as we're killing ourselves with our harmful activities. That's the kicker. It's not a political issue when it pretty much amounts to collective suicide. Of course you could afford to be a skeptic if you're the CEO of Nestle, for example; your way of life would be highly insulated from the fallout of climate change.

Nature has a weird way of cleverly making use of what it has. Even if we trash the planet into an uninhabitable hellhole within the century, life goes on. New microbes and insects may not be in the lovable forms with which we are familiar, but living things nonetheless.

We don't have that resilience. People die from drought and famine all the time, and endure disease from the shocking quality of water that they have to drink. Every time some dipshit cares for the "health" of an engine more than that of his own body by deleting his Cummins or Powerstroke, more people contract respiratory diseases from the PM. When we let bees decline by the wayside or do insanely stupid things like introduce Asian giant hornets to the West coast (since 2019 in Vancouver), it's our agricultural industries that are reeling from the blow (and a small number of our community that are dying directly from running into the hornets). When wildfires run rampant here with every year hotter and seeking to outdo the previous, it's our homes, livelihoods and sometimes our lives at stake; "nature" just regards it as a normal reset for a healthier ecosystem down the line.

Personally I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to make it to a ripe old age. I get heatstroke extremely easily to the point of hospitalization. Without AC, I'd be out on my ear.

Climate change is no longer about having the conscience to be eco-friendly. It's now about saving our own goddamn asses, especially if we don't step up in finding ways to leave this planet.

It's really hard to change businesses that have quite high profits and have low willingness to move to next generation energy sources and new way of living - green and clean.
Coal, gas and petrol industries must be heavily modified.

Global CO2 levels continue to rise and global temperatures follow the trend:

April 2020: Earth’s 2nd Warmest April on Record

2020 is likely to be the warmest year on record

blogs.scientificamerican.com

April 2020 was Earth’s 2nd hottest April on record

April became the third month in a row to rank second-hottest on record for the globe after the year kicked off with the hottest January ever recorded in 141 years of record-keeping, according to scientists from NOAA’s National Centers for Environmental Information. It was also the second-warmest...

www.noaa.gov

I think the US is manipulating the global weather patterns via climate weapons. This is so unusually cold spring in Europe.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Could be because of polar melt. Phase change can cause a huge shift in temperatures...but only while there is still ice to melt.

 

[the54thvoid]

Could be because of polar melt. Phase change can cause a huge shift in temperatures...but only while there is still ice to melt.

That sounds so bleak.

But so true. Less ice also reduces the albedo effect. Vicious cycle.

 

[ARF]

Siberian temperatures hit June record, fires spread: EU data

Global temperatures last month were on par with a 2019 record, and “exceptional warmth” was recorded over Arctic Siberia, the EU’s earth observation programme Copernicus said, part of a trend scientists are calling a “warning cry”.

Average temperatures in the region were more than 5 degrees Celsius (about 9°F) above normal and more than a degree higher than the two previous warmest Junes, in 2018 and 2019, the data showed.

The World Meteorological Organization is also seeking to confirm reports of a temperature reading of more than 100°F (38°C) in Siberia, which would be the highest temperature recorded north of the Arctic Circle.

Siberian temperatures hit June record, fires spread: EU data

Temperatures in Arctic Siberia soared to a record average for June amid a heat wave that is stoking some of the worst wildfires the region has ever known, European Union (EU) data showed on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

The Arctic is on fire: Siberian heat wave alarms scientists

But for scientists, “alarm bells should be ringing,” Overpeck wrote.

Such prolonged Siberian warmth hasn’t been seen for thousands of years “and it is another sign that the Arctic amplifies global warming even more than we thought,” Overpeck said.
Russia’s Arctic regions are among the fastest warming areas in the world.


Persistently warm weather, especially if coupled with wildfires, causes permafrost to thaw faster, which in turn exacerbates global warming by releasing large amounts of methane, a potent greenhouse gas that’s 28 times stronger than carbon dioxide, said Katey Walter Anthony, a University of Alaska Fairbanks expert on methane release from frozen Arctic soil.
“Methane escaping from permafrost thaw sites enters the atmosphere and circulates around the globe,” she said. “Methane that originates in the Arctic does not stay in the Arctic. It has global ramifications.”

And what happens in the Arctic can even warp the weather in the United States and Europe.

In the summer, the unusual warming lessens the temperature and pressure difference between the Arctic and lower latitudes where more people live, said Judah Cohen, a winter weather expert at Atmospheric Environmental Research, a commercial firm outside Boston.
That seems to weaken and sometimes even stall the jet stream, meaning weather systems such as those bringing extreme heat or rain can stay parked over places for days on end, Cohen said.

According to meteorologists at the Russian weather agency Rosgidrome t, a combination of factors — such as a high pressure system with a clear sky and the sun being very high, extremely long daylight hours and short warm nights — have contributed to the Siberian temperature spike.

“The ground surface heats up intensively. .… The nights are very warm, the air doesn’t have time to cool and continues to heat up for several days,” said Marina Makarova, chief meteorologist at Rosgidromet.
Makarova added that the temperature in Verkhoyansk remained unusually high from Friday through Monday.
Scientists agree that the spike is indicative of a much bigger global warming trend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-arctic-is-on-fire-siberian-heat-wave-alarms-scientists/2020/06/24/fe48fc64-b5ec-11ea-9a1d-d3db1cbe07ce_story.html

 

[remixedcat]

and I wish the sheeple would stop blaming the average joe and jane for the climate crisis... they've been lied to and manipulated by billionaires like al gore, soros, bill gates, etc to think they have to cut down on usage while they jet set to thier megamansions. like holy fuck ppl.

it's these megarich ppl thru NGOs that are using weather modification to benefit thier industries like monsanto, for example... sweltering heat makes there be more bugs and parasites so it's good for those industries... and these same megarich people establish NGOs to make policies that hurt poor people. yet so many are tricked into thier lies, just because they've been brainwashed so long by pixie dust...

 

[rruff]

I don't think most skeptics realize that we're not really killing the environment as much as we're killing ourselves with our harmful activities...

....Climate change is no longer about having the conscience to be eco-friendly. It's now about saving our own goddamn asses, especially if we don't step up in finding ways to leave this planet.

Nonsense. Do you realize that a warmer planet is actually conducive to a greater abundance of plant and animal and human life?

Our familiar temperature range is a brief warm period compared to the norm for the prior 1M years... and we are due for another ice age... which really would be devastating.