id Software Clarifies Denuvo Technology Wasn't Responsible For Doom Eternal Issues Following Update 1

[Decryptor009]

Ahh, you're being a troll. Gotcha.

Huh?

No the simple fact is, cheating will never go away on PC, the only real method is to never release the game on PC, until then, people will always find ways around it, unless you have better ideas?

 

[lexluthermiester]

Huh?

No the simple fact is, cheating will never go away on PC, the only real method is to never release the game on PC, until then, people will always find ways around it, unless you have better ideas?

Ok, here's the deal. Your idea is either extremely narrow-minded, short-sighted and completely ignorant to reality or you are deliberately trolling. Which is it?

Cutting off PC gamers everywhere just to stop cheaters is not only foolish from a business and economic perspective but also a concept lacking any practical application. The proper solution is to create a system by which cheating becomes so difficult that it lacks appeal to anyone.

 

[robot zombie]

DRM is like a mouth mask, answers to primal instinct of protection but almost fully counterproductive.

Ahh, the 'better than nothing' defense. I'd love to walk into a room full of high-level executives, say those words, and walk out with a $100k deal in tow, and just do that for a job.

Seriously though, I wonder what cost/benefit looks like when it comes the choice to go with it these days. I mean, up to ~2016 it was considered kind of bulletproof... well SOME people really thought it was lol. But now... it's becoming more like throwing money at a problem and hoping it will go away.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just not up on it enough, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how you produce data to show sales saved with DRM, versus how many sales are lost to piracy/cheating. You have a few ways to peek into behavior and trends, but unless you've got your finger down on people's attitudes, how could you know how many of those people are even 'potential customers' in the first place? Wouldn't you need Schrodinger's graphing machine to show the difference between the two scenarios? How do they extrapolate? Just compare a game with Denuvo to another game without it? Of course their sales figures will differ. How many years of study and analysis would it take to assess every sales factor and start to build up a picture of the impact? How many more to repeat that many times?

Maybe I'm just stupid or something. But I wonder if the world will ever get a chance to know if Denuvo and others actually protect games from the impact of cheating and piracy in a meaningful way. It's hard to know, because the dev's side isn't really that clear. We don't often have access to the nitty-gritty cost/benefit. So from our end, it kinda looks like a waste of money that mostly just pisses paying customers off. I thought the idea was to have more people buy the game and want to keep playing it!

As time goes by, I get more of this feeling that this approach to dealing with very legitimate issues that impact everything in some way, is just inadequate. It doesn't work that great, and it has bad side-effects. But I guess for now, that's tolerable (for them.)

 

[Decryptor009]

Ok, here's the deal. Your idea is either extremely narrow-minded, short-sighted and completely ignorant to reality or you are deliberately trolling. Which is it?

Cutting off PC gamers everywhere just to stop cheaters is not only foolish from a business and economic perspective but also a concept lacking any practical application. The proper solution is to create a system by which cheating becomes so difficult that it lacks appeal to anyone.

Well i am narrow minded or ignorant or a troll because i am apprently narrow minded to you, they could just release single player only, there not so narrow minded.

I absolutely detest cheaters, so you won't ever change my mind by projecting on others "troll and fixed minded"

 

[lexluthermiester]

Well i am narrow minded or ignorant or a troll because i am apprently narrow minded to you, they could just release single player only, there not so narrow minded.

I think the vast majority of PC gamers would agree that your proposed solution is incredibly lacking and without merit on any level.

I absolutely detest cheaters,

Can't disagree there...

so you won't ever change my mind by projecting on others "troll and fixed minded"

..but then you follow up with this.

If you can't stand cheaters, don't play online, ever. PC or Console, it doesn't matter because there are cheaters on every platform. But hey, sure, go ahead and punish everyone because poor little you has a problem.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just not up on it enough, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how you produce data to show sales saved with DRM, versus how many sales are lost to piracy/cheating.

That is a simple answer, the numbers are grossly over-estimated to give the powers that be a justification to enact more control in ways they should never have. Piracy happens, sure, but not in the numbers or to the effect industry pundit's claim. Cheating? Minor annoyance in the overall scheme of things. Yes, it's a problem, but one being blown out of proportion.

 

[Decryptor009]

I think the vast majority of PC gamers would agree that your proposed solution is incredibly lacking and without merit on any level.

Can't disagree there...

..but then you follow up with this.

If you can't stand cheaters, don't play online, ever. PC or Console, it doesn't matter because there are cheaters on every platform. But hey, sure, go ahead and punish everyone because poor little you has a problem.


That is a simple answer, the numbers are grossly over-estimated to give the powers that be a justification to enact more control in ways they should never have. Piracy happens, sure, but not in the numbers or to the effect industry pundit's claim. Cheating? Minor annoyance in the overall scheme of things. Yes, it's a problem, but one being blown out of proportion.

So we should stand cheaters, LOL great logic.

 

[Vayra86]

I think the vast majority of PC gamers would agree that your proposed solution is incredibly lacking and without merit on any level.

Can't disagree there...

..but then you follow up with this.

If you can't stand cheaters, don't play online, ever. PC or Console, it doesn't matter because there are cheaters on every platform. But hey, sure, go ahead and punish everyone because poor little you has a problem.


That is a simple answer, the numbers are grossly over-estimated to give the powers that be a justification to enact more control in ways they should never have. Piracy happens, sure, but not in the numbers or to the effect industry pundit's claim. Cheating? Minor annoyance in the overall scheme of things. Yes, it's a problem, but one being blown out of proportion.

Don't feed it man, 10+ post count per day and the vast majority contains nothing at all. I went for the ignore button within two topics, and have no reason to change that stance since.

 

[Tartaros]

It's not something that can be magically stopped, just don't release the game on PC and they have no need to worry about cheaters.

There are cheaters on console. A LOT. Specially on old games who just have a few official servers but no one cares of it, COD4 has been like that for years.

Like it or not, kernel level anticheat does a lot, but also does the publisher caring and putting enough effort and money on policing their servers. It's a work no one likes to do because is hard and a black hole of money, but if you want fish you need to wet your ass.

But putting Denuvo claiming to protect mp in its actual state (depressing) and later quit it can perfectely probable being some higher up from Zenimax who is a little stingy because some people still pirate it, even if it sold like hotcakes. If you really want to commit to online, you don't take these false steps.

 

[Decryptor009]

There are cheaters on console. A LOT. Specially on old games who just have a few official servers but no one cares of it, COD4 has been like that for years.

Like it or not, kernel level anticheat does a lot, but also does the publisher caring and putting enough effort and money on policing their servers. It's a work no one likes to do because is hard and a black hole of money, but if you want fish you need to wet your ass.

But putting Denuvo claiming to protect mp in its actual state (depressing) and later quit it can perfectely probable being some higher up from Zenimax who is a little stingy because some people still pirate it, even if it sold like hotcakes. If you really want to commit to online, you don't take these false steps.

Yes in Modern Warefare 3 and a couple of Call of Duty games, a lot is more like perhaps 250 maximum.

No where even close to the popularity and scene PC has, it is at least 1000x larger on PC and there can be no denial of such a thing.

 

[Tartaros]

No where even close to the popularity and scene PC has, it is at least 1000x larger on PC and there can be no denial of such a thing.

You couldn't thread the logic, but suit yourself.

 

[Decryptor009]

You couldn't thread the logic, but suit yourself.

I threaded it perfectly fine.

2 or 3 games on console vs almost all MP games on PC, your logic is missing statistical and larger views over the issue.

All it comes down to is, oh my precious PC and allegience to a platform, that's the real argument behind your nonsense.

 

[Tartaros]

I threaded it perfectly fine.

Aha.

Can you tell me any other reason of Windows being more insecure than other OSes and Intel having more vulnerabilities apart of "being bad at their job" or "meanie hackers not having good morals"?

 

[Decryptor009]

Aha.

Can you tell me any other reason of Windows being more insecure than other OSes and Intel having more vulnerabilities apart of "being bad at their job" or "meanie hackers not having good morals"?

Totally different argument and discussion.

Video game cheating when it effects others enjoyment should be dealt with, but as stated, due to the inherent way PC's are being a mostly open platform.. people find ways around it.

Your safest bet is on a console.

Speaking of old Call of Duty games on PS3 or X360, does cheating work on backwards compatibility on newer consoles? From memory the exploit is done to memory which is stored locally, this would be very hard to do if a console has not been reversed engineered by some modding group.

 

[Tartaros]

Video game cheating when it effects others enjoyment should be dealt with, but as stated, due to the inherent way PC's are being a mostly open platform.. peopel find ways around it.

Windows isn't open. The games you execute aren't open. Like consoles. Consoles being pirated early is something common too.

Things are pirated and hacked, specially if they are popular. What stops that is security investing from the publisher's part, not stop doing business in a platform because of a gut feeling.

 

[Decryptor009]

Windows isn't open. The games you execute aren't open. Like consoles. Consoles being pirated early is something common too.

Things are pirated and hacked, specially if they are popular. What stops that is security investing from the publisher's part, not stop doing business in a platform because of a gut feeling.

Can you stop changing the topic please, we are talking about cheating in multiplayer, not piracy or hacking consoles.

Your logic is completely invalid and does not support your argument.

 

[Tartaros]

Can you stop changing the topic please, we are talking about cheating in multiplayer, not piracy or hacking consoles.

Your logic is completely invalid and does not support your argument.

You were the one bringing up pcs being open, not me. And cheating in an online game implies hacking, there aren't menu options in games to break the rules in multiplayer ffs, is not something you activate on a whim, you need to hack the game and the online code and then run a program on it.

Is not that hard to understand that no matter what platform you use and how close it is, security depends on how many people attracts to hack it, let it be popularity, bussiness or ease (sometimes those are tied), and how willing are publishers to defend their service. Games being hacked is a consequence of the publisher dropping support or not doing enough for those games and people looking into those games for something to exploit. It doesn't have anything to do with the platform being "open", which no gaming platform is, even pc unless you play open source games.

Your argument is detached from reality.

 

[Decryptor009]

You were the one bringing up pcs being open, not me. And cheating in an online game implies hacking, there aren't menu options in games to break the rules in multiplayer ffs, is not something you activate on a whim, you need to hack the game and the online code and then run a program on it.

Is not that hard to understand that no matter what platform you use and how close it is, security depends on how many people attracts to hack it, let it be popularity, bussiness or ease (sometimes those are tied), and how willing are publishers to defend their service. Games being hacked is a consequence of the publisher dropping support or not doing enough for those games and people looking into those games for something to exploit. It doesn't have anything to do with the platform being "open", which no gaming platform is, even pc unless you play open source games.

Your argument is detached from reality.

I brought it up because they are open, or we would have ways of stopping cheating for good, but we don't.

This has nothing to do with meltdown or CPU specific attacks, completely different.

Cheating or use of cheats is not hacking, it took a skilled programmer to get the cheat to work, this is nothing more than exploiting code and running things in parallel with the games .EXE in real time to give a superior advantage.

Visual studio is mostly what they code with, hardly hacking.

Spectre, Meltdown are not for cheating in multiplayer games, for some reason you have a very hard time understanding this.

And literally around 3 games on console maximum have a cheating problem, NO argument whatsoever.

 

[Tartaros]

I brought it up because they are open, or we would have ways of stopping cheating for good, but we don't.

This has nothing to do with meltdown or CPU specific attacks, completely different.

Dude, it's the same principle. The reason things like cpu vulnerabilities were discovered is because Intel is the most scrutinized target, most of cpu exploits were results of a bunch of scientists almost searching with zealotry for exploits on Intel BECAUSE THEY ARE THE MOST POPULAR CPU BRAND AND THEY HAVE MILLIONS OF EYES UPON THEM. Like Windows. AND LIKE CONSOLES, WHO ALL OF THEM WERE HACKED EARLY IN THEIR EXISTENCE, BECAUSE THEY ARE POPULAR. See a pattern?

Cheating or use of cheats is not hacking, it took a skilled programmer to get the cheat to work, this is nothing more than exploiting code and running things in parallel with the games .EXE in real time to give a superior advantage.

I don't know if is plain trolling. This is not the 00s pulling an full hacked barbarian in open mp in Diablo 2, let's be serious.

Visual studio is mostly what they code with, hardly hacking.

You can code your hack whatever you want with the language you want and you suit that program to your target, let be a windows game or a ps4 game. The point is you do things against something for reasons if you have the opportunity and the ones who defend that something put resistance or not, not if they use a specific scripting language or if they do it while naked apron with a pink lace on ther heads, I couldn't care less.

Spectre, Meltdown are not for cheating in multiplayer games, for some reason you have a very hard time understanding this.

I explained the reason of bringing that up already. You are the one who didn't take the point

And literally around 3 games on console maximum have a cheating problem, NO argument whatsoever.

And for the nth time, that's not the point. Also I would like to know where do you pull from that number.

 

[Decryptor009]

Dude, it's the same principle. The reason things like cpu vulnerabilities were discovered is because Intel is the most scrutinized target, most of cpu exploits were results of a bunch of scientists almost searching with zealotry for exploits on Intel BECAUSE THEY ARE THE MOST POPULAR CPU BRAND AND THEY HAVE MILLIONS OF EYES UPON THEM. Like Windows. AND LIKE CONSOLES, WHO ALL OF THEM WERE HACKED EARLY IN THEIR EXISTENCE, BECAUSE THEY ARE POPULAR. See a pattern?



I don't know if is plain trolling. This is not the 00s pulling an full hacked barbarian in open mp in Diablo 2, let's be serious.


You can code your hack whatever you want with the language you want and you suit that program to your target, let be a windows game or a ps4 game. The point is you do things against something for reasons if you have the opportunity and the ones who defend that something put resistance or not, not if they use a specific scripting language or if they do it while naked apron with a pink lace on ther heads, I couldn't care less.



I explained the reason of bringing that up already. You are the one who didn't take the point


And for the nth time, that's not the point. Also I would like to know where do you pull from that number.

So how does that detract from stating you are far safer gaming on console to not play against cheaters? which is a fact unless you play like 3 games from almost a decade gone.

It seems you are trying to create argument, rather than see any logical conclusion, in other words, creating illusions to keep from the truth and goal of what i was speaking about.