• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Intel Accused of Infringing FinFET Patents of the Microelectronics Institute of the Chinese Academy of Sciences

Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
2,344 (0.46/day)
Location
Right where I want to be
System Name Miami
Processor Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling Ek Velocity/ 2x 280mm Radiators/ Alphacool fullcover
Memory F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) XFX 6900 XT Speedster 0
Storage 1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2TB WD SN750/ 4TB WD Black HDD
Display(s) DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s) EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W+750W
Mouse Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard Corsair K95 Platinum
Software Windows 10 Pro
So stealing others pictures online and using them for your own purpose is alright because you are a flag waving patriot, but a closed shop like China can't manufacture products similar to others for their own market?
How is that hurting companies that do not trade in China?
Surely you can't be that blinded by patriotism that you think it takes away from income streams of external companies!

Which companies in the images above do not operate in China? Besides the rhetorical questions the Chinese state though more lax compared to the period of near isolationism is very prohibitive on which foreign companies can do business. At this point they pretty much only allow companies that have IP they have yet to steal, or makes for good PR.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,707 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
So stealing others pictures online and using them for your own purpose is alright because you are a flag waving patriot, but a closed shop like China can't manufacture products similar to others for their own market?
How is that hurting companies that do not trade in China?
Surely you can't be that blinded by patriotism that you think it takes away from income streams of external companies!

In point of fact it is ok and perfectly legal. It is called "fair use" and it's been around since I was in high school - over 30 years ago. It's the same clause that allows a high school student to quote or reference other works, as long as they are not plagarizing the entire thing.

Then there is the little thing of not doing it for profit. For anyone to actually get awarded damages in a suit, I would have to benefit monetarily or they would have to prove that I caused them to lose market share.

In all of the photos I've shown, those two things would be very easy to show for the companies that created the merchandise.

You are remarkably uneducated in this area.

It's also repulsive that you try to shut down people shining a light on this. Are you a paid China troll? If not, stop acting like one.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
21,320 (3.40/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 9950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage Intel 905p Optane 960GB boot, +2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps
Software Gentoo Linux x64 / Windows 11 Enterprise IoT 2024
It's a systemic cultural problem in China where they do not respect the work of others. Probably a side-effect of communism, which pretty much says what's yours is mine. Keep in mind this is not minor stuff, making a car, opening a business, thousands - no hundredes of thousands - of people are involved in those rip-offs. This is obviously not a problem limited to one instance or issue and trying to deal with it that way has not and will not work.

China has given me so much ammo I can do this for weeks - literally.

On with the show:

View attachment 164453


View attachment 164454


View attachment 164455


View attachment 164456

I like how half of those are from user /r/obviousplant from reddit (an american), who makes them and plants them in unsuspecting stores. They've even been careful to crop out his logo on "specialman."

Check out his store for more laughs:


As always, facebook regurgitated postings are not to be believed. The cars are probably real but that's about all.

In point of fact it is ok and perfectly legal. It is called "fair use" and it's been around since I was in high school - over 30 years ago. It's the same clause that allows a high school student to quote or reference other works, as long as they are not plagarizing the entire thing.

Fair use also goes a lot farther for teachers and students than the general public, IIRC.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,707 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
I like how half of those are from user /r/obviousplant from reddit (an american), who makes them and plants them in unsuspecting stores. They've even been careful to crop out his logo on "specialman."

Check out his store for more laughs:


As always, facebook regurgitated postings are not to be believed. The cars are probably real but that's about all.

First of all, I did not get a single image from Facebook or that store you posted.

That being the case, what you said is not true. This makes you a liar. See how that works?

It's also kinda funny how you think China only copies cars - a feat that takes not just one engineering team and manufacturing plant, it requires an entire supply chain to pull off. And then they show their copies off, at an auto trade show.

But they wouldn't dare copy a teenage mutant ninja turtle, according to you. Not too sharp at using that noggin are ya?

Fair use also goes a lot farther for teachers and students than the general public, IIRC.

No it doesn't. As a citizen, If I am not trying to make money at it I can use all kinds of quotes and images in civil discourse. How many times have you seen a chart posted here? Ever heard of a lawsuit about posting a chart or a quote from an article in chat / facebook / forums? I didn't think so.

Even for those making money at it - look at articles here on TPU - 75% of what they post quotes / references other articles. Pay attention to what you are reading in news sites of any kind and you'll find dozens of articles on all kinds of subjects (not just tech) are referenced back to a single source.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
2,344 (0.46/day)
Location
Right where I want to be
System Name Miami
Processor Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling Ek Velocity/ 2x 280mm Radiators/ Alphacool fullcover
Memory F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) XFX 6900 XT Speedster 0
Storage 1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2TB WD SN750/ 4TB WD Black HDD
Display(s) DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s) EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W+750W
Mouse Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard Corsair K95 Platinum
Software Windows 10 Pro
Fair use also goes a lot farther for teachers and students than the general public, IIRC.

No, that would be unconstitutional if that was the case. Law has to apply equally to everyone. Before anyone rushes to reply enforcement is where the unfairness of law lies and is another can of worms entirely.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
21,320 (3.40/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 9950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage Intel 905p Optane 960GB boot, +2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps
Software Gentoo Linux x64 / Windows 11 Enterprise IoT 2024
That being the case, what you said is not true. This makes you a liar.

It only makes me a liar if I in good faith did not believe it. I do, and honestly, still do. Specialman in particular was created by obviousplant in the early days. Some of them may be real, some of them may not. Viral photos attributed without evidence don't prove anything but that you have an agenda is my point.

No, that would be unconstitutional if that was the case. Law has to apply equally to everyone.

Education has specific priviledge in fair use. That's not unconstitutional, as anyone can use a video in a teaching environment. It's intended for the old VCR era so teachers could carry homemade tapes and play them at school.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Read.

As a citizen, If I am not trying to make money at it I can use all kinds of quotes and images in civil discourse. How many times have you seen a chart posted here? Ever heard of a lawsuit about posting a chart or a quote from an article in chat / facebook / forums? I didn't think so.

Fair use goes farther in education, I never said it does not apply to average joe at all. It particularly deals with covering complete programs rather than "partial alterations"
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,707 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
It only makes me a liar if I in good faith did not believe it. I do, and honestly, still do. Specialman in particular was created by obviousplant in the early days. Some of them may be real, some of them may not. Viral photos attributed without evidence don't prove anything but that you have an agenda is my point.

Most of those photos were taken from sites - of which there are hundreds - which try to raise awareness of Chinese copyright / patent / IP theft.

This is not some edge case wacko idea as you are attempting to frame it - an attempt which makes your motives more than just a little questionable.

I posted pictures because 99% of the folks here don't read. You included, clearly.

You want some real links.

"The report, citing data from U.S. Customs and Border Protection, also indicates that 87 percent of the counterfeit goods seized by customs officials come from China (including Hong Kong). "


"2017 report by the National Bureau of Asian Research estimated “that the annual cost to the U.S. economy continues to exceed $225 billion in counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets and could be as high as $600 billion.”


"In 2009, National Security Agency Director General Keith Alexander called Chinese IP theft “the greatest transfer of wealth in history.” He put the value of cyber-theft of US trade secrets and intellectual property (IP) at a stunning $250 billion a year and called it “our future disappearing in front of us.


"1 in 5 corporations say China has stolen their IP within the last year"



So now I have given you facts. What have you given? .....
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
21,320 (3.40/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 9950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage Intel 905p Optane 960GB boot, +2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps
Software Gentoo Linux x64 / Windows 11 Enterprise IoT 2024
This is not some edge case wacko idea as you are attempting to frame it

I'm not trying to frame anything. China indeed has IP issues and I'll be the first to admit that (they flangrantly violated the MIPS license on loongson cpus until recently). I'm reminding readers looking at viral photos is not real evidence. Thank you for some real links.

So now I have given you facts. What have you given? .....

Common sense, which led to actual facts. Thank you for that. I'm not sure any but the cnbc one are remotely trustworthy but I'm not here to dispute the obvious.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 6, 2017
Messages
3,301 (1.19/day)
Location
North East Ohio, USA
System Name My Ryzen 7 7700X Super Computer
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 7700X
Motherboard Gigabyte B650 Aorus Elite AX
Cooling DeepCool AK620 with Arctic Silver 5
Memory 2x16GB G.Skill Trident Z5 NEO DDR5 EXPO (CL30)
Video Card(s) XFX AMD Radeon RX 7900 GRE
Storage Samsung 980 EVO 1 TB NVMe SSD (System Drive), Samsung 970 EVO 500 GB NVMe SSD (Game Drive)
Display(s) Acer Nitro XV272U (DisplayPort) and Acer Nitro XV270U (DisplayPort)
Case Lian Li LANCOOL II MESH C
Audio Device(s) On-Board Sound / Sony WH-XB910N Bluetooth Headphones
Power Supply MSI A850GF
Mouse Logitech M705
Keyboard Steelseries
Software Windows 11 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores https://valid.x86.fr/liwjs3
China has repeatedly shoved a knife into the backs of the world, yet we still continue to do business with them. Why? I just don’t get it. Talk about stupidity.
 

the54thvoid

Super Intoxicated Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
12,915 (2.38/day)
Location
Glasgow - home of formal profanity
Processor Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar B650 (wifi)
Cooling be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
Memory 32GB Kingston Fury
Video Card(s) Gainward RTX4070ti
Storage Seagate FireCuda 530 M.2 1TB / Samsumg 960 Pro M.2 512Gb
Display(s) LG 32" 165Hz 1440p GSYNC
Case Asus Prime AP201
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply be quiet! Pure POwer M12 850w Gold (ATX3.0)
Software W10
China has repeatedly shoved a knife into the backs of the world, yet we still continue to do business with them. Why? I just don’t get it. Talk about stupidity.

I don't know why people don't understand. It's because of capitalism. China as a developing economy promised a cheaper way to manufacture goods for sale in the west. Listed companies with shareholders require a better ROI. You easily achieve that by cutting costs. Primarily labor (move to a cheaper workforce) and by subbing contracts overseas. In return, those who invest in the company reap the rewards.

I'm sure some people will argue against this point but capitalist market forces are responsible for much of the anti-China rhetoric. In market terms (not cultural), our beloved mutant capitalist monster is to blame. And before the zealots charge in, Capitalism was meant to work in the following way:

Business idea. Create goods, sell goods. Employ people. Said employees gain income, income is spent locally, benefits community (how created wealth gets 'rei-nvested'). Business expands, employs more locals, trickle down wealth effect continues. It's a good model.

But it doesn't work like that anymore. Investors, wealth acquisition without graft, and tax avoidance have made capitalist markets unrecognisable from the noble ideas it was founded upon. Only a fool can blame China for taking advantage of western greed.
 
Low quality post by R0H1T
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
7,444 (1.77/day)
capitalist markets unrecognisable from the noble ideas it was founded upon
There was nothing "noble" about capitalism ever, at least IMO! The idea has existed for better part of five millennia, though obviously with industrial revolution the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few has been unprecedented.
 
Low quality post by ajc9988
Joined
Jun 26, 2018
Messages
15 (0.01/day)
I don't know why people don't understand. It's because of capitalism. China as a developing economy promised a cheaper way to manufacture goods for sale in the west. Listed companies with shareholders require a better ROI. You easily achieve that by cutting costs. Primarily labor (move to a cheaper workforce) and by subbing contracts overseas. In return, those who invest in the company reap the rewards.

I'm sure some people will argue against this point but capitalist market forces are responsible for much of the anti-China rhetoric. In market terms (not cultural), our beloved mutant capitalist monster is to blame. And before the zealots charge in, Capitalism was meant to work in the following way:

Business idea. Create goods, sell goods. Employ people. Said employees gain income, income is spent locally, benefits community (how created wealth gets 'rei-nvested'). Business expands, employs more locals, trickle down wealth effect continues. It's a good model.

But it doesn't work like that anymore. Investors, wealth acquisition without graft, and tax avoidance have made capitalist markets unrecognisable from the noble ideas it was founded upon. Only a fool can blame China for taking advantage of western greed.
I need to correct this notion. At first, China was desired for cheap labor. Now, it is supply chain. When assembling or creating a good, it has multiple parts. It is cheaper to be able to walk down the street to order screws to be delivered to the shop next door assembling your good than to import those screws from Vietnam, etc. Supply chain integration has become so tight in China that you have larger issues moving production out of China in many cases. It increases cost to purchase those components from China, then ship them to Vietnam, Malaysia, etc., for final assembly of the good.

But, due to the trade war, which ultimately is being funded by US citizens (that's right, tariffs are taxes on the consumer, not the producer, while allowing the local competitors to now charge as much as the costs are from their competitors with the new tariff in place; and when factories have to be moved elsewhere, you foot that bill and the increased costs of production spread out for the good, meaning the trade war is not squeezing China as much as it is squeezing the poor and middle-class US citizen), you are contributing to an artificial inflation which contributed to the Federal Reserve's choice to raise interest rates four times over 2018, which was also due to the tax cuts juicing the markets creating an artificial growth above 3% which triggered the rate hikes to "control for inflation."

Back to my main point, though, China is not the cheapest for labor anymore. There are some cost savings to be had. But it is supply chain management that is their greatest boon at this point is my understanding.
 
Low quality post by RandallFlagg
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,707 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
I think people here are confusing "capitalism", in which those who choose to put the effort and take the risk of innovating / creating / investing can reap great rewards (or if their risk does not pan out, go broke), with "Modern Corporatism".

These are two entirely different things. When corporations were originally allowed to be formed back in the 1800s, there were some significant restrictions.

This would be unrecognizable today :

  • Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.
  • Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.
  • Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.
  • Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.
  • Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.
  • Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.
"The power of large shareholders was limited by scaled voting, so that large and small investors had equal voting rights. Interlocking directorates were outlawed. Shareholders had the right to remove directors at will. "

Side note : The weakening started in 1819, when SCOTUS overruled some state powers regarding revoking corporate charters. It took them 25 years to re-establish that.

"Over several decades starting in 1844, nineteen states amended their constitutions to make corporate charters subject to alteration or revocation by their legislatures. As late as 1855 it seemed that the Supreme Court had gotten the people’s message when in Dodge v. Woolsey it reaffirmed state’s powers over “artificial bodies.” "

"But the men running corporations pressed on."

"Government spending during the Civil War brought these corporations fantastic wealth. Corporate executives paid “borers” to infest Congress and state capitals, bribing elected and appointed officials alike. They pried loose an avalanche of government financial largesse. During this time, legislators were persuaded to give corporations limited liability, decreased citizen authority over them, and extended durations of charters. "

"Attempts were made to keep strong charter laws in place, but with the courts applying legal doctrines that made protection of corporations and corporate property the center of constitutional law, citizen sovereignty was undermined. As corporations grew stronger, government and the courts became easier prey. They freely reinterpreted the U.S. Constitution and transformed common law doctrines. "

There was no 2nd chance to re-establish harsh penalties and conditions for corporations.

In essence, corporations bought our elected officials and redefined their purpose and the laws surrounding them. A process which continues to this day. As you can see above, the original corporate structure was a trade-off. In exchange for limiting personal liability, the prospective corporation had to demonstrate that they would benefit the public and was completely disallowed from participating in politics or directing / influencing a "vote" in any way.

The decline from that harsh standard and transition to politically active and influential corporations actually started in 1819, and you can blame the SCOTUS for that.

 

Tatty_Two

Gone Fishing
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
25,903 (3.78/day)
Location
Worcestershire, UK
Processor Intel Core i9 11900KF @ -075mV PL max @225w
Motherboard MSI MAG Z490 TOMAHAWK
Cooling DeepCool LS520SE Liquid + 3 Phanteks 140mm case fans
Memory 32GB (4 x 8GB SR) Patriot Viper Steel Bdie @ 3600Mhz CL14 1.45v Gear 1
Video Card(s) Asus Dual RTX 4070 OC + 8% PL
Storage WD Blue SN550 1TB M.2 NVME//Crucial MX500 500GB SSD (OS)
Display(s) AOC Q2781PQ 27 inch Ultra Slim 2560 x 1440 IPS
Case Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Windowed - Gunmetal
Audio Device(s) Onboard Realtek ALC1200/SPDIF to Sony AVR @ 5.1
Power Supply Seasonic CORE GM650w Gold Semi modular
Software Win 11 Home x64
Post # 60 was pretty clear I thought, please stay on topic.
 
Top