Epic Games Gets Partial Relief in Legal Battle with Apple

[rtwjunkie]

Enough cash to replace Tim Sweeney if he does anything that's too expensively stupid.

They can’t. Tencent own less than 50% of Epic and Tim keeps all decision making and control. All they get out of their investment is a portion of the profits.

A little research would have saved you a pointless post.

 

[zlobby]

Yeah, it's totally a good idea to aggravate a 3 trillion USD company with manly stances. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[rtwjunkie]

Yeah, it's totally a good idea to aggravate a 3 trillion USD company with manly stances. What could possibly go wrong?

Well your solution would be for companies smaller than 3 trillion in worth to always willingly get screwed, painfully? Sorry, but the business world only advances with challenges. Companies don’t sit down with coffee and doughnuts and handholding and get ahead.

 

[R-T-B]

The judge is female.

Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why is this even worth mentioning?

Exactly. First this was posted with a slight error. Just helping @btarunr make sure that it was correct.

It's also worth noting that this judge also presided over a jury trial in 2014 in which Apple was shown to not be monopolistic in it's app store practices. Which sucks for us because it does seem from everything that has been leaking out lately that they ARE monopolistic in their app store practices. I know she has no say over that decision obviously as it was a jury trial.

Oh, gotcha. Appologies.

 

[Chrispy_]

They can’t. Tencent own less than 50% of Epic and Tim keeps all decision making and control. All they get out of their investment is a portion of the profits.

A little research would have saved you a pointless post.

It's never actually that simple, if you were mistaking my tongue-in-cheek one-liner as a serious comment.

Tencent's 40% may not give them total control but they have influence and Sweeney's bet the farm in a SaaS future. Epic has lost the teams and in some cases the rights to some of its biggest IPs and really hasn't achieved much other than Fortnite.

Since 2012's Tencent buyout, The Bulletstorm, UT, and Infinity blade franchises have been cancelled, Paragon never saw the light of day and Fortnite is now banned from its two most popular platforms.

Part of me thinks that EPIC is trying to pull a 'Gabe Newell' with his focus on EGS and licenseable engine tech rather than games. Except rather than being the first to market and self-funded like Valve was, he's late to the market and relying on Chinese investment and third-party platforms (Apple, Google) to do the dirty work. It's a bold move, but Sweeney's possibly bitten off more than he can (or should realistically) chew here. IMO the guy has a god complex and it's about time he was stung for his arrogance.

 

[HugsNotDrugs]

Yeah, it's totally a good idea to aggravate a 3 trillion USD company with manly stances. What could possibly go wrong?

Both parties appear to have risk albeit very different risk. If Epic reaches a settlement for payment to Apple of less than 30% then perhaps they have succeeded. On the other side I suspect Apple will take steps against Epic to discourage others from trying to achieve the same - which is probably what we're seeing here.

 

[Rahnak]

IMO the guy has a god complex and it's about time he was stung for his arrogance.

He may be an egomaniac, but in tech companies they're a dime in a dozen. Apple's full of them.

I don't hold any love for any particular corporation, but I for one am siding with Epic on this one. Not for Epic itself but for all the smaller guys they're also fighting for. It's high time digital stores stop taking a 30% cut. It's undeserved and unjustified.
It's ridiculous that Apple has taken probably hundreds of millions of dollars from Fornite IAPs just because they own the platform.

If Epic fails I hope the EU forces Apple to allow third party payment systems for IAPs on iOS.

 

[Tartaros]

It's ridiculous that Apple has taken probably hundreds of millions of dollars from Fornite IAPs just because they own the platform.

And Epic is doing the same with pulling out Unreal Engine out of Apple. Epic has shown they are willing to do the same thing, even if there is more freedom regarding game engines they are the top player right now.

This should have been regulated since the beggining, not as a consequence of a battle between corporations.

 

[narta]

If Epic fails, China will force the EU to make Apple open up their OS to 3rd party stores, due to predatory monopolistic practices. Trump is f up China, it's China's time to hit back and they never do it in a direct way.

 

[Vayra86]

So how exactly does this move affect fortnite's mobile player base? Some kid on warzone last night was talking about how he had a mobile account with 1,400$ spent on it that was pretty much rendered useless in his eyes because now he isn't allowed to transfer his stuff over to another platform or something along those lines? maybe he was mis-informed or i mis-understood what his problem was. But either way it sounds like epics attempt at sh*tting on apple actually resulted in them sh*tting on a portion of their own player base...I respect epic for having the balls, but at the end of the day apple or google will just end up squashing them like the bug that they are (comparatively). Sounds like they maybe should have approached the issue in a more calculated manner

If you spent 1400 on Fortnite... a lesson needs to be learned. Sounds like true value to me to find most of it useless.

That conclusion is incorrect and reveals how much you misunderstand the legal system. This fight is not over.

Precisely. The fact it was strategical has no weight whatsoever on the rest of the fight. It just applies to how the judge motivates her decision on this part of it. Its a pretty big weapon to step into a business' decisions and say 'nope, you can't do that' - and in fact, she already does this in part. So if anything, this ruling is one match point for Epic.

 

[Rahnak]

And Epic is doing the same with pulling out Unreal Engine out of Apple. Epic has shown they are willing to do the same thing, even if there is more freedom regarding game engines they are the top player right now.

Except Epic didn't do that, Apple did. After banning Fortnite from the App Store they threatned they would terminate Epic's developer credentials which would affect all games using UE in the Apple Store. That's when Microsoft decided to publicly back Epic.

 

[rtwjunkie]

And Epic is doing the same with pulling out Unreal Engine out of Apple. Epic has shown they are willing to do the same thing, even if there is more freedom regarding game engines they are the top player right now.

This should have been regulated since the beggining, not as a consequence of a battle between corporations.

Actually, Apple dumped Unreal from the store as an additional "screw you" to Epic. Epic didn't pull it.

 

[medi01]

Joined Aug 17, 2020
Messages 3 (0.33/day)

China will force the EU

Shit is getting out of hand...

And Epic is doing the same with pulling out Unreal Engine out of Apple.

I would lie if I'd say that pro-Apple post revealing that the poster has got things very wrong is surprising, but even by these low standards, dude, what the heck?

 

[zlobby]

Well your solution would be for companies smaller than 3 trillion in worth to always willingly get screwed, painfully? Sorry, but the business world only advances with challenges. Companies don’t sit down with coffee and doughnuts and handholding and get ahead.

Both parties appear to have risk albeit very different risk. If Epic reaches a settlement for payment to Apple of less than 30% then perhaps they have succeeded. On the other side I suspect Apple will take steps against Epic to discourage others from trying to achieve the same - which is probably what we're seeing here.

In this case I'm severely biased against Epic. They can burn for all I care. Just this once I'm willing to let Apple go with it.

 

[jayseearr]

If you spent 1400 on Fortnite... a lesson needs to be learned. Sounds like true value to me to find most of it useless.



Precisely. The fact it was strategical has no weight whatsoever on the rest of the fight. It just applies to how the judge motivates her decision on this part of it. Its a pretty big weapon to step into a business' decisions and say 'nope, you can't do that' - and in fact, she already does this in part. So if anything, this ruling is one match point for Epic.

I agree, but that's also kinda just beside-the-fact pointless logic. I'm not the kid's dad so I don't really feel the need to evalute his purchases and whether they were intelligent ones or not. Besides that I know I have spent more than I needed to also on various different hobbies and things throughout my life that were completely unnecessary, so who would I be to judge?

 

[Chrispy_]

He may be an egomaniac, but in tech companies they're a dime in a dozen. Apple's full of them.

I don't hold any love for any particular corporation, but I for one am siding with Epic on this one. Not for Epic itself but for all the smaller guys they're also fighting for. It's high time digital stores stop taking a 30% cut. It's undeserved and unjustified.
It's ridiculous that Apple has taken probably hundreds of millions of dollars from Fornite IAPs just because they own the platform.

If Epic fails I hope the EU forces Apple to allow third party payment systems for IAPs on iOS.

Personally I would love to see this as the thin end of the wedge to provoke a wider legal investigation over walled-garden ecosystems. That doesn't change the fact that Sweeney is likely going to lose these specific lawsuits against Apple and Google. They are simple black-and-white cases where EPIC was banned from a platform for meeting the exact condition that was contractually agreed to result in a ban. Contract law is relatively watertight, we've been using contracts to sort shit out legally for a good few millenia now

If Apple and Google's walled gardens are investigated by a governing body, be it US-based or somehing like the European Commission, then this will be a good thing for the "little guys" you're talking about. I agree that the 30% cut is too steep but 70% of something is better than 100% of nothing and the something is entirely created by and the property of Apple/Google.

Let's fast forward a bit and predict that in 2021 Apple and Google are forced to change their terms or open up the walled garden - someone has to pay for the cloud hosting, the version control, the DRM, the admin of the distribution system. Even if the cut goes down, developers will likely be forced to pay in other ways. The issue is that within the walled gardens, everything is the property of (and the terms and conditions are set by) that walled-garden owner. It's not anti-competitive because Android is open and Windows is open. Other companies are free to make their own app store and distribute apps across that store on Android, Windows, Linux. The only company that is likely to suffer from this is Apple who do not have an open platform and (without jailbreaking) do not allow third-party app stores to run on their devices; That is where the terms 'captive-audience' and 'monopoly' apply, and it's where the regulators are most likely to intervene first.

 

[Vayra86]

I agree, but that's also kinda just beside-the-fact pointless logic. I'm not the kid's dad so I don't really feel the need to evalute his purchases and whether they were intelligent ones or not. Besides that I know I have spent more than I needed to also on various different hobbies and things throughout my life that were completely unnecessary, so who would I be to judge?

You're right, its just a good reminder of how the world works, is all.

 

[Rahnak]

Personally I would love to see this as the thin end of the wedge to provoke a wider legal investigation over walled-garden ecosystems. That doesn't change the fact that Sweeney is likely going to lose these specific lawsuits against Apple and Google. They are simple black-and-white cases where EPIC was banned from a platform for meeting the exact condition that was contractually agreed to result in a ban.

Agreed. I think Epic only got themselves banned on purpose to gather the support of their player base and they were probably hoping they’d add to the noise. That didn’t really happen, afaik. Regardless, the suit isn’t really about them being banned, just the 30% cut, I believe. And like you, while I don’t expect them to win, I’m hoping they’re the spark that lights the fire.

the something is entirely created by and the property of Apple/Google.

That doesn’t really mean much these days, they can be forced to make changes, as Microsoft and Google will tell you. Not too long ago Google was fined $5 billion by the EU for bundling the search engine and Chrome in Android and other stuff.

The major problem is that both the EU and US commissions that investigate these things are painfully slow.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Agreed. I think Epic only got themselves banned on purpose to gather the support of their player base and they were probably hoping they’d add to the noise. That didn’t really happen, afaik.

Oh yes it did. This whole thing has brought yet another aspect of Apple's predatory business practices to the forefront of public awareness. And it will keep it there for a while.

 

[Chrispy_]

Oh yes it did. This whole thing has brought yet another aspect of Apple's predatory business practices to the forefront of public awareness. And it will keep it there for a while.

I wish it mattered. I think even the most die-hard Apple zealots know that Apple are unethical and bad for consumers, but I don't for one minute think that it will change public opinion.

Let's face it, Apple do something terrible and global-headline-worthy several times a year but it makes no difference.

 

[Imouto]

The damage is done. New studios will think very carefully if they want to use an engine from a company that puts all their work in the line.

 

[rtwjunkie]

The damage is done. New studios will think very carefully if they want to use an engine from a company that puts all their work in the line.

On the contrary, Unreal Engine is one of the most widely used and will continue to be. It being available in the Apple walled garden was just a portion of the people that use it.

 

[Imouto]

On the contrary, Unreal Engine is one of the most widely used and will continue to be. It being available in the Apple walled garden was just a portion of the people that use it.

I was obviously referring to developers with iOS in their mind. And again, their next target could be Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft because their consoles are the same walled gardens.