UPS on lithium batteries

[Deleted member 191766]

Anyone here running their UPS on lithium batteries?

 

[jsfitz54]

Anyone here running their UPS on lithium batteries?

How is the UPS going to charge a battery it was not designed to charge?

Stick with the same type the manufacturer supplied as a replacement.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

That is why I asked

Dakota Lithium 12v 10Ah Battery

Dakota Lithium 12-volt 10Ah battery designed LiFePO4 technology. battery is for fishing, outdoor use warranty 11 years. lightweight & lasts 8 times longer.

dakotalithium.com

"THE PERFECT SLA REPLACEMENT BATTERY "

 

[R-T-B]

From your link:

Charger Sold Separately
This battery should be charged using a LiFePO4 compatible charger. A SLA charger may work, but will reduce performance and lifespan of the battery.

Yeah, not going to hassle with that.

 

[Bill_Bright]

How is the UPS going to charge a battery it was not designed to charge?

Huh? Many lithium batteries are designed to be recharged. Virtually every notebook, cell phone, electric car ever made uses rechargeable lithium batteries.

Stick with the same type the manufacturer supplied as a replacement.

Totally disagree - unless you want to spend way more than you have to. Peel the label off your APC or Cyberpower cells and you surely will find the same battery you can get from Amazon or BatteryMart. I've been using UPS for over 30 years and never ever bought from the UPS maker and never had any problems.

 

[JustAnEngineer]

The problem is that a charger that is designed and programed to handle sealed lead acid batteries is very likely going to have problems with a LiFePO4 battery - either it will damage the battery or the logic in the UPS won't allow it to charge at all.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

I must admit that when I replace a SLA with a super-capacitor bank I was concerned that any trickle current might cause over-voltage

Replacing a UPS Battery With Super-Capacitors

Replacing a UPS Battery With Super-Capacitors: Got tired of replacing the lead-acid battery in a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply), so put together a super-capacitor array to go in its place. Such units are now commercially available https://www.marathon-power.com/supercapacitor-ups....

www.instructables.com

I checked for this in my UPS and all was fine; if it wasn't I would have added some Zener diodes.

 

[Bill_Bright]

The problem is that a charger that is designed and programed to handle sealed lead acid batteries is very likely going to have problems with a LiFePO4 battery - either it will damage the battery or the logic in the UPS won't allow it to charge at all.

If the voltage is correct, no problems. A trickle charger is a perfect example. They put out tiny amounts of current yet can be used to charge monster car batteries that would normally draw 10s of amps. But no harm is done to the charger.

The chargers in UPS are designed to shut down if too much current is demanded - as often happens when a battery shorts out, which is not uncommon.

12VDC is 12VDC.

I was concerned that any trickle current might cause over-voltage

Nah! And remember, chargers are designed to shut off when the batteries are charged. Even if they still provide a trickle voltages, batteries are designed to handle them.

 

[JustAnEngineer]

A member in another forum that I frequent tried LiFePO4 batteries in his UPS and they weren't recognized or didn't charge. Replacing with a larger (externally connected) lead acid battery worked, though.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

Thanks, this is the info I sought.

 

[1freedude]

Some true drop in replacement lithium batteries have a charge controller built in to the case. Those will accept a charge from almost any source, within a certain voltage range. I deal with batteries like those and like OP linked. I have even made my own from scratch, using a control board that prevents over current charge/discharge, under voltage/over voltage, and, if I put a temp sensor in, over temp control. All I need to do to charge it is put more current and voltage than it is currently (no pun intended) using (discharging). Battery charging is another hobby of mine.

With a good SLA replacement, half of the cost is the engineering behind the BMS

 

[kiriakost]

I got disappointed by running lithium at my motorcycle.

Lithium motorcycle battery Review / Battery FAIL & take apart at 2015

Lithium motorcycle battery Review / Battery FAIL & take apart at 2015

www.ittsb.eu

 

[newtekie1]

I got disappointed by running lithium at my motorcycle.

Lithium motorcycle battery Review / Battery FAIL & take apart at 2015

Lithium motorcycle battery Review / Battery FAIL & take apart at 2015

www.ittsb.eu

LiFePO4 batteries are very different from the battery you had 5 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

They are still probably not going to be very happy with the currents demanded to start an engine.

 

[1freedude]

They are still probably not going to be very happy with the currents demanded to start an engine.

This is too good, found it on amazon hxxps://www.amazon.com/ask/questions/Tx1UYD966ZVBGA0/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza

The current generated by a large load is large.

 

[Bill_Bright]

This is too good, found it on amazon hxxps://www.amazon.com/ask/questions/Tx1UYD966ZVBGA0/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza

The current generated by a large load is large.

So now loads "generate" current? Yeah right.

***

Now - my apologies!

After re-reading, and this time taking the time to fully understand jsfitz54's post #2 above, I change my response. In my haste (I was rushing to get out the door - an explanation, not an excuse), I completely ignored the word, "type" when he said, stick with the same type the manufacturer supplied as a replacement.

FTR, I would not replace a SLA battery with a Li Ion (or LiFePO4) battery, or vice versa, unless the charger was specifically designed to support both types - and I don't know of any UPS with a charging system designed for that. There certainly are other applications where it does not matter but I have not seen a UPS designed for SOHO use that does. My bad and apologies to jsfitz54 and others reading.

I will, however, stick to my comment about never ever buying replacement batteries from the UPS maker. I buy my UPS batteries from Apex, BatteryWholesale, Battery Mart, Batteryplex, RefurbUPS, Walmart or Amazon - depending on who has the best price on that day. And note today one distributor will price high with free shipping and the next day price low with shipping. So be sure to factor in shipping, which can be significant, but sometimes free.

Also, when the whole UPS battery consists of more than one battery (cell), there often is some sort of bracket or other framework used by the UPS manufacturer that holds, aligns and spaces the cells properly to ensure correct polarities (and avoid shorts). The entire assembled battery is then inserted into the UPS battery compartment as one unit. An example is this 4-cell frame or this 2-cell frame. These are standard SLA batteries strapped together. There typically are small jumper cables (straps) too, cut to length and used to strap the terminals together correctly to ensure the proper series, parallel or series/parallel connections are made to provide the correct voltage output for the whole battery. I recommend drawing a diagram or taking photos of the old configuration, and saving the frame/spacer and straps so you have a guide and parts to use to properly reassemble your replacement cells when they arrive.

For those confused about "cell" and "battery", many larger UPS use 2 or more batteries to make one big battery. In this scenario, each individual battery is used as a "cell" in the larger battery. Think of a flashlight/torch that uses 4 AA batteries. Each individual AA battery is a battery on its own. But when used together in the flashlight, they become cells in a 4-cell battery. Clear as mud, huh?

Last - do NOT toss your old batteries into the trash. One thing really nice about SLA batteries is about 90% of the materials, including the hazardous lead content, can be recycled. Check you local listings for recycling centers. For those in the US, Best Buy will take them, as well as your old Li Ion batteries (including old CR2032 CMOS batteries). Many auto-parts stores will take them too.

 

[newtekie1]

They are still probably not going to be very happy with the currents demanded to start an engine.

They handle the current demand just fine. Even regular modern Lithium-Ion batteries can handle some pretty high current demand. Hell, most solar systems in RVs theses days are using Li-Ion batteries, and they run air conditioners off of them. The thing is you have to spread the load out across multiple cells and keep the heat in check. A good battery controller will protect that batteries.

I mean, I have a Lithium-Ion jump start pack in every of my cars. They work great, even when I've had to use them with my V8 truck that had a dead battery. But the controller doesn't allow the battery to get too hot. You can only crank for 3 seconds before the controller cuts off the current. Then you have to wait 30 seconds between tries, and if the battery gets too hot it won't let you try anymore at all until it cools down.

 

[Deleted member 191766]

I take my old lead acid batteries to the junk yard; they pay by the pound.

 

[kiriakost]

LiFePO4 batteries are very different from the battery you had 5 years ago.

You might be surprised but I have very wide awareness.

Ebike battery 36V 10 Ah HW-RH05 with HW-YJ-12 BMS & 38120LE (Tear down)

Ebike battery 36V 10 Ah HW-RH05 with HW-YJ-12 BMS & 38120LE (Tear down)

www.ittsb.eu

 

[Deleted member 191766]

While I very much appreciate opinions, what I was really after was experiences.

 

[laszlo]

While I very much appreciate opinions, what I was really after was experiences.

do not try to put that lithium battery in your UPS!

it will blow-up and catch fire because the charge/discharge is not managed by a battery management system (BMS) designed for it , even if the UPS has an internal management system is made for lead battery

lithium battery has a nasty behavior as it will accept more&more power until it reach a critical state ; the UPS internal charger deliver ~15V for charging the 12 V lead battery; now this voltage applied directly to the lithium will charge it over the safety limits....

there are BMS on market which can be attached to the lithium batteries so they can be used safely; however the quality ones for big amperage are v. expensive; the chinese 10$-30$ ones sold on ebay are a joke as are not capable of handling the rated amperage...


for example this is a BMS which can handle that battery:

Smart BMS CL 12/100 - Victron Energy

The Smart BMS CL 12/100 is a Battery Management system for Victron lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) Smart Batteries. It has been specifically designed for...

www.victronenergy.com

and price.....:

Victron Energy Smart BMS CL 12/100 - BMS110022000

Victron Energy Smart BMS CL 12/100 - BMS110022000 product brought to you by BMS Technologies LTD Offering free next working day delivery.

www.batterymegastore.co.uk

the best option is to use a car 12v car battery as it will last....

 

[milewski1015]

I will, however, stick to my comment about never ever buying replacement batteries from the UPS maker. I buy my UPS batteries from Apex, BatteryWholesale, Battery Mart, Batteryplex, RefurbUPS, Walmart or Amazon - depending on who has the best price on that day. And note today one distributor will price high with free shipping and the next day price low with shipping. So be sure to factor in shipping, which can be significant, but sometimes free.

Also, when the whole UPS battery consists of more than one battery (cell), there often is some sort of bracket or other framework used by the UPS manufacturer that holds, aligns and spaces the cells properly to ensure correct polarities (and avoid shorts). The entire assembled battery is then inserted into the UPS battery compartment as one unit. An example is this 4-cell frame or this 2-cell frame. These are standard SLA batteries strapped together. There typically are small jumper cables (straps) too, cut to length and used to strap the terminals together correctly to ensure the proper series, parallel or series/parallel connections are made to provide the correct voltage output for the whole battery. I recommend drawing a diagram or taking photos of the old configuration, and saving the frame/spacer and straps so you have a guide and parts to use to properly reassemble your replacement cells when they arrive.

For those confused about "cell" and "battery", many larger UPS use 2 or more batteries to make one big battery. In this scenario, each individual battery is used as a "cell" in the larger battery. Think of a flashlight/torch that uses 4 AA batteries. Each individual AA battery is a battery on its own. But when used together in the flashlight, they become cells in a 4-cell battery. Clear as mud, huh?

Last - do NOT toss your old batteries into the trash. One thing really nice about SLA batteries is about 90% of the materials, including the hazardous lead content, can be recycled. Check you local listings for recycling centers. For those in the US, Best Buy will take them, as well as your old Li Ion batteries (including old CR2032 CMOS batteries). Many auto-parts stores will take them too.

Very much this. I used to work in a warehouse for a company that refurbished and recycled APC UPSs. I can guarantee you that not once did we use official APC RBCs (replacement battery cartridges). We bought third party batteries like Bill is recommending, and used the original RBC tray/bracket and wiring. Aside from the lower-end units, most units used at least two batteries, with some of the larger RBCs containing 6 or 8.

Can't agree with the last paragraph more. Properly recycle your batteries people!

 

[OneMoar]

some battery's have adapter Circuits right in the battery they make motorcycle batterys like this that drop right in
something like this

https://www.amazon.com/Supersmart-Lithium-Battery-2-5AH-150CCA/dp/B07JY71Z7D

if you go the car battery route make sure its a deep cycle

 

[kiriakost]

While I very much appreciate opinions, what I was really after was experiences.

I will never offer to any one my in-depth experiences, but a few pictures they will not cause any harm even to hobbyists.

Very much this. I used to work in a warehouse for a company that refurbished and recycled APC UPSs. I can guarantee you that not once did we use official APC RBCs (replacement battery cartridges). We bought third party batteries like Bill is recommending, and used the original RBC tray/bracket and wiring. Aside from the lower-end units, most units used at least two batteries, with some of the larger RBCs containing 6 or 8.

Can't agree with the last paragraph more. Properly recycle your batteries people!

This will awake some of your memories

APC UXBP24 battery box UNBOXING - Thanks to one eBay seller :-)

APC UXBP24 battery box UNBOXING - Thanks to one eBay seller :-)

www.ittsb.eu

 

[Waldorf]

there are lithium and there are lithium, doesnt mean there the same. (Lipo/Liio/LifePO4 etc).
would you say the non rechargeable energizer AA are the same as: in your phone? In RC equipment?
There are enough Li based "replacement" batteries for stuff that is identical in use/charge to the lead type in use.

Nothing prevents a manufacture to put the charging related stuff INSIDE the battery enclosure (best example the smart batteries from DJi)
and have the regular connectors matching (lead type) hook ups.

dont care to spend more than 1 min to find an example, so i go with a car (not MC/UPS) battery.

starter battery (able to replace a lead battery, running on 12V charging system).