AMD Launches AMD Ryzen 5000 Series Desktop Processors: The Fastest Gaming CPUs in the World

[RandallFlagg]

Those graphs are gross profits. Aka: how to lie with graphs.

* Revenue -- "Money made"
* Gross Profit: Revenue - COGS, aka used to calculate "margin".
* Net Profit: Revenue - COGS - a whole bunch of other stuff. Also known as "The Bottom Line".

It always bothers me when people talk Gross instead of Net. Just because it has the word "profit" in it doesn't mean its what colloquial people understand as profits. If "profit" is unspecified, there's usually an underlying assumption that you're talking about Net.

Gross tells you the cost to build a chip vs the sale price, which was the topic. Net shows you nothing in that regard as it includes capital expenditures like building new plants, developing new products, marketing costs, and various administrative costs. So in fact, Net is the one that is 'fake' and can be manipulated. A highly profitable company can invest heavily in capital expenditures and appear to be broke on Net. This is why for a decade or more Amazon never made a dime, yet look at their revenue and gross margin and you see a different picture. Looking at a raw profit number like "20B vs 600M" (Net) tells you nothing about this, people who looked at that alone with Amazon would have though Macys was kicking their tail for a decade..

Hyperbolic example, using Net - if I'm selling 10 billion units of something and make $20B Net vs selling 10 units of something and making 600M Net, then the one making 20B can only lower price $20 before profit is zero or negative ($20B / 10B units). The one selling 10 units can lower price $60M each before profit is zero. Hence Net is useless in this discussion unless you know quantity across multiple sectors and can break it down in terms of net profit per unit. That type of data is not out there, so gross margin is all we have.

Of course, neither Intel nor AMD can lower their costs such that gross margin is anywhere near zero, else they'd have to cease all marketing, R&D, and so on to break even. My guess is they both need at least 20% and probably 30% Gross Margin to hit break even on Net Income.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Net shows you nothing in that regard as it includes capital expenditures

Ah got it. So you don't know how to read a financial statement.

Spoiler: capex is under cash flow and is not subtracted from net. This is basic stuff. If you buy a $1 billion factory, then it means -$1 billion cash but +$1billion in assets, for a net change of $0.

What is subtracted is depreciation. If your $1 billion factory will only last 20 years, then you need to make $50 million / year to counteract it. (Not that AMD really makes factories... but their computers and hardware is tech and inevitably will only last a small period of time: 5 year upgrade cycles or whatever. Especially whatever expensive computers they use for verification). Some Capex can be avoided thanks to cloud compute, but because EDA requires such huge computational resources, I'm pretty sure AMD / Intel / etc. etc. have to constantly buy very expensive FPGAs for their formal verification.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Ah got it.

So you don't know how to read a financial statement.

Spoiler: capex is under cash flow and is not subtracted from net. This is basic stuff. If you buy a $1 billion factory, then it means -$1 billion cash but +$1billion in assets, for a net change of $0.

What is subtracted is depreciation. If your $1 billion factory will only last 20 years, then you need to make $50 million / year to counteract it.

Net Income is the bottom line so it most definitely includes costs associated with R&D. Maybe you should go look a bit closer before you spout off.

NOI (Net Operating Income)

NOI is a standardized metric that serves as a proxy for cash flow and is used to compare different property types and assess their economic value.

corporatefinanceinstitute.com

"..net income is the last figure obtained after all expenses are subtracted from the total revenue. The total revenue includes all channels of income, including all operating income, investment income, interest from loans offered, etc. The costs deducted include capital expenses, taxes, and all operating expenses. "

Finance 101 example, note that R&D (capital) is subtracted before you get to the "Bottom Line" Net Income.

Capital expenditures for physical assets also show up here albeit indirectly. I'll give you a hint. Where do you suppose that depreciation line comes from?

 

[agentnathan009]

Actually I imagine that Intel will lower prices earlier, even if not officially. You can already get a 10700 for $299 at Microcenter, $319 at Newegg, and $317 at B&H Photo. Given that the 10700 has a fan with it, this actually makes it cheaper than a 5600X @$299 + $30 fan.

I think the 10850K launch makes a lot more sense now. Intel probably knew that the 5800X would come in right at $450, which is exactly where the 10c/20t 10850K sits.

Probably something worth noting. Intel 14nm, they own the fab, and it's super efficient with high yields. I don't think AMD/TSMC will win a price war with Intel, I bet Intel could sell the 10850K for $300 and still make more money than AMD can make on a 5800X at $450. But it sure would be nice if someone would start a price war.

There is already a price war and you fail to understand and comprehend how much money it takes to develop these complex chips nowadays. Go become a chip engineer and find out how hard it is to make this stuff at smaller and smaller nodes let alone TSMC etc having to develop means to make smaller nodes. If you don't like the price buy a cheaper model, sure it is nice to have the best but everyone cannot afford the Ferrari, most of us drive the common brands like Ford, Toyota, etc.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Net Income is the bottom line so it most definitely includes costs associated with R&D.

You didn't say R&D earlier. You said CapEx.

Net shows you nothing in that regard as it includes capital expenditures like building new plants, developing new products, marketing costs, and various administrative costs. So in fact, Net is the one that is 'fake' and can be manipulated. A highly profitable company can invest heavily in capital expenditures and appear to be broke on Net.

Which is just factually wrong entirely. If you spend $10 Billion on a factory, it will show up as a change of $0 on Net.

Capital expenditures for physical assets also show up here albeit indirectly

CapEx is always a Cash-flow issue. Never on the income statement. Period. Depreciation is depreciation, almost a different concept all together (though financially tied to CapEx).

 

[RandallFlagg]

You didn't say R&D earlier. You said CapEx.

Yah, I mentioned R&D and CapEx were not part of Gross Margin original post. Given that 14nm has been around 5 years, this is just what it costs to make a chip. Maybe you should go back and re-read the original post, you're making points that I addressed from step 1.

Which is just factually wrong entirely. If you spend $10 Billion on a factory, it will show up as a change of $0 on Net.

I think you missed it, again. A $10B factory built 5 years ago most definitely shows up on the Net Income statement. It shows up in the form of depreciation. If you build 10 $10B factorys, one each year, and depreciate them over 10 years, then on year 10 with the 10th factory your depreciation will be $10B. To say that it does not show up at all on net income is totally false, it shows up spread out over time.

 

[R0H1T]

Mine was 500 ~3.5 months after launch. That was after actively trying acquire one for the entirety of those first 3 months and not being able to.
(people like to talk about nvidia paper launches these days, but AMD did exact the same thing with their R9 CPUs just last year, wont be surpised if its the same with 5000 again)

That is true though you must also know that the demand for CPUs is much higher than dGPUs, between consoles/HPC/server/desktop/notebooks & other embedded zen2 chips how many do you think AMD's selling vs Ampere (including the full fat A100) in the same period say first 3-4 months? My best guess at least 10x & that's a conservative guesstimate by all accounts.

 

[TheUn4seen]

Oh my. Here we go with the hype again. You see, I heard exactly the same claims just before getting the 955BE. What a horribly bad CPU it was, completely obliterated by an overclocked i3-540. Turned me off AMD and their false claims for years. They can't produce a GPU which is clearly faster than my 1080ti from almost four years ago, which I don't even use any more. They can't even match Intel's performance in games, all while spewing crazy claims before every launch.
Let's wait and see the actual reviews, not the usual marketing bag of crap. If they are actually as good as claimed than that's great, but we'll see.

(disclaimer: I'm not a millennial, hence I don't see any rationale in streaming games or recording the gameplay. I'm also not a hobbyist "youtube video" maker. I only care for raw performance in day-to-day and real time tasks. For doing important things I have serious work machines at my place of employment).

 

[P4-630]

Some prices of Finland and Portugal:

 

[RandallFlagg]

Oh my. Here we go with the hype again. You see, I heard exactly the same claims just before getting the 955BE. What a horribly bad CPU it was, completely obliterated by an overclocked i3-540. Turned me off AMD and their false claims for years. They can't produce a GPU which is clearly faster than my 1080ti from almost four years ago, which I don't even use any more. They can't even match Intel's performance in games, all while spewing crazy claims before every launch.
Let's wait and see the actual reviews, not the usual marketing bag of crap. If they are actually as good as claimed than that's great, but we'll see.

(disclaimer: I'm not a millennial, hence I don't see any rationale in streaming games or recording the gameplay. I'm also not a hobbyist "youtube video" maker. I only care for raw performance in day-to-day and real time tasks. For doing important things I have serious work machines at my place of employment).

Ya, I went and looked at their claims on release of the 3900X. It turned out they cherry picked a bit too hard, many of the 3900X claims fell on their face in the real world, However Zen 2 had really good price/performance ratio anyway. Their claims for the 5900X show a bigger delta vs Intel than the 3900X claims though. Having said that, with these big price increases If AMD doesn't live up to their claims with Zen 3 they're gonna get roasted. They no longer have a price / perf ratio to fall back on.

 

[R0H1T]

That's not an argument when AMD's selling 4 gens of Ryzen, including the upcoming zen3 series. Absolute performance, perf/$ & perf/w is still vastly in their favor!

 

[RandallFlagg]

That's not an argument when AMD's selling 4 gens of Ryzen, including the upcoming zen3 series. Absolute performance, perf/$ & perf/w is still vastly in their favor!

Meh, not really. By including old gens the price/$ argument begins to unravel. Intel old gens are also for sale. What’s resale value of an 8700k vs 1700x? What was true total cost of ownership?

 

[R0H1T]

What's the resale value go to do with anything? What's the price of a 1800x or 2700x & a suitable (cheap) motherboard? Now tell me what a brand new 8700k + z370 costs

Your argument falls flat on it face when Intel itself kills their old gen instead of making them cheap, not to mention the effin motherboard/chipset mess!

 

[dragontamer5788]

I think you missed it, again. A $10B factory built 5 years ago most definitely shows up on the Net Income statement. It shows up in the form of depreciation. If you build 10 $10B factorys, one each year, and depreciate them over 10 years, then on year 10 with the 10th factory your depreciation will be $10B. To say that it does not show up at all on net income is totally false, it shows up spread out over time.

And why do you want to remove this from the accounting? If you have $10 billion in factories (which turns into a $9 billion factory after a year of wear-and-tear), you need to make $1 Billion extra that year before you break even. (Or whatever your depreciation schedule is).

If your factories are breaking down and you're failing to replace them, then your company is spiraling down, out of control and going to die soon. That's why we look at net, especially with companies like AMD where a technology (ex: Zen, or Infinity Fabric) goes obsolete... eventually worthless after a few years. Keeping up-to-date with the latest tech is incredibly important for a company like this, and constitutes a significant amount of spending (upgrading the design to Zen2, or Zen3, etc. etc.)

Or, in the more traditional sense of depreciation, the 10,000 FPGAs that AMD has to run RTL simulations or whatever get more and more worthless as time goes on. If AMD is working with equipment that's too old, then they will lose an engineering advantage over their competitors. Those FPGAs are depreciating assets: losing money over time. AMD must not only make enough margin to make cash... but enough cash to replace their old equipment as well (at least, if AMD wishes to remain in business 5 years from now).

------

In either case: CapEx never is on the income statement. Only depreciation is on the income statement. CapEx is on cash flow. Its important to know the three documents (cash flow, income statement, and asset sheet) if you want to seriously compare different companies against each other. There are also inconsistencies between companies (different companies may qualify different costs as R&D vs CapEx based off the opinion of their management team). So its never an apples-to-apples comparison.

As such, something like gross income is subject to more variance between companies. Net income includes literally everything and is more consistent between different companies.

 

[Icon Charlie]

Meh, not really. By including old gens the price/$ argument begins to unravel. Intel old gens are also for sale. What’s resale value of an 8700k vs 1700x? What was true total cost of ownership?

True value of ownership is person to person. Normally speaking it is how long you can use the components in question to do the majority of your tasks.
My 1800X is still valuable and is at times better than my 3600 due to being a 8 core vs a 6 core. If my 3600 reached 4.3 as stated on my box I would have been really happy but it is only as fast as my 1800X which out of the box hit 4.1 hz. In multiple applications the 8 core still performs better.

In 2017 it was the first time in 27 years that I made a 2 year build (instead of a 4 year build) because AMD and the tech industry had the BEST Performance vs Value I ever seen. 16 gigs of high quality Ram. An SSD and a HDD Drive, with a X370 mother board, 1800X, and a 1070 video card... all new for $900 including tax and shipping.

In DEC 2019 I did the same thing with even more Ram for $990 (900 plus tax and shipping).

If I would have build the same 2019 Rig with all new parts it would cost me $1200+ dollars, because prices went up to100% PSU's (yea companies do talk to each other that is why PSU prices went up because of the video cards... NOT tarrifs and not the cooof), up to 50% on motherboards, up to 200%+ on CPU Coolers, up to 25% or more Fans, Video cards and so on.

I mean come on man... they are pushing 27 inch curved 165hz monitors for the same price and performance on my Pixio PX329 32 inch NON CURVED monitor. All because of market speak.

I am not happy with the price of the video cards nor the CPU's All of this BS about massive performance increase are just marketing lies.

I am seriously thinking of just not upgrading and going back to my usual every 4 to 5 years for a new rig while making small upgrades along the way. I've never bought used on important components but now I am thinking of going that route too. The 3600 is a great deal and the pricing has had actually gone up new (Ebay 185 w cooler) I bought mine for 175 w/cooler new) but because of the LOUSY price vs performance of the 5000 series cpus over the 3000 series cards... I'm so going to wait for any upgrade.

2017 was the year of change for the better, for the customer. 2020 is the year of greed as they price gouge the customer base.

But there are enough Gerbils out there that will continue to buy and make these companies really... happy...

 

[oobymach]

View attachment 171364

I'm full of both brilliance and stupidity, so you take what you get.

 

[RandallFlagg]

What's the resale value go to do with anything? What's the price of a 1800x or 2700x & a suitable (cheap) motherboard? Now tell me what a brand new 8700k + z370 costs

Your argument falls flat on it face when Intel itself kills their old gen instead of making them cheap, not to mention the effin motherboard/chipset mess!

I am not the one who introduced comparison with previous gen chip prices on spot markets into this. As I said, once you do that you need to look at all aspects. Intel doesn't kill their old gen, they simply stop making them. You seem to attribute bizarre price fluctuations when supply on something old dries up to the manufacturer. That's like blaming Ford for the Ford GT costing $500K 10+ years after they sold them new for $137K.

The same thing is happening in AMD space, the 1600X at Newegg is $245 vs the 3600 at $199. Using your logic, I guess AMD is price gouging huh?

And if you think Zen 2 (3000) series will maintain availability for long, you might want to re-think that. It's highly unlikely that AMD will keep manufacturing cheap chips in the expensive and constrained TSMC 7nm pipeline. Unlike the overhang of supply in Zen 1 and 1+ (2000 series) which were made on relatively cheap GloFlo 14nm and 12nm with some production after Zen 2 7nm was launched, there's no such dual production path for Zen 2 and 3. Any Zen 2 chips AMD orders made, would be a Zen 3 chip they can't sell. I would imagine that the Zen 2 3xxx series will dry up very fast.

 

[Zach_01]

Where on earth you people find those crystal balls?
It’s like you sleep next to Lisa Su...

Amazing!

Anyone else notice they skipped 4000? My guess is a hardware flaw that was only noticed partway through manufacturing, why else would they skip a gen?

Because of the mobile ZEN2 4000series?

 

[Th3pwn3r]

The same thing is happening in AMD space, the 1600X at Newegg is $245 vs the 3600 at $199. Using your logic, I guess AMD is price gouging huh?

I waited a long time for AMD to finally release info on the 5000 series. That info came out and I what a big MEH from me. I was holding off on a build due to one of my machines having issues. Well after seeing what AMD is going to offer I bought a 3600 and a B550 motherboard for when AMD comes to their senses and drops their prices or offers something similar to price/performance that the 3600 offered. As I see it right now the Ryzen 5000 series has to compete against the 3600 and is going to sit on lots of 5000 series CPUs until 3600 stock is cleared out. I paid $160 for the 3600 today at Microcenter this morning(Saturday) and at that price why buy anything else or wait for the 5000 series, I do like the 65w tdp on the $299 5600x but I'm not going to pay almost double just because the TDP is low. The Microcenter employee told me they had sold 93 of the 3600 this week and I made the 94th purchase at that store and there's a reason for that. AMD isn't going to see the same sales and most people have done their panic/pandemic builds already. I don't think it's just AMD that is going to see a decline in sales as I think Intel sales will drop as well but I think the 5000 series launch is going to be a dud. Next up is Big Navi, I hope I'm not disappointed with that too, I'm holding onto my 2080ti until I can either get a 3080 or AMD stops pissing around and finally offers a real GPU.

 

[Zach_01]

I waited a long time for AMD to finally release info on the 5000 series. That info came out and I what a big MEH from me. I was holding off on a build due to one of my machines having issues. Well after seeing what AMD is going to offer I bought a 3600 and a B550 motherboard for when AMD comes to their senses and drops their prices or offers something similar to price/performance that the 3600 offered. As I see it right now the Ryzen 5000 series has to compete against the 3600 and is going to sit on lots of 5000 series CPUs until 3600 stock is cleared out. I paid $160 for the 3600 today at Microcenter this morning(Saturday) and at that price why buy anything else or wait for the 5000 series, I do like the 65w tdp on the $299 5600x but I'm not going to pay almost double just because the TDP is low. The Microcenter employee told me they had sold 93 of the 3600 this week and I made the 94th purchase at that store and there's a reason for that. AMD isn't going to see the same sales and most people have done their panic/pandemic builds already. I don't think it's just AMD that is going to see a decline in sales as I think Intel sales will drop as well but I think the 5000 series launch is going to be a dud. Next up is Big Navi, I hope I'm not disappointed with that too, I'm holding onto my 2080ti until I can either get a 3080 or AMD stops pissing around and finally offers a real GPU.

You have a 1200$ MSRP card and 300$ is too much for a CPU with better gaming performance that 3900XT/3950X?

Ok!

 

[Th3pwn3r]

You have a 1200$ MSRP card and 300$ is too much for a CPU with better gaming performance that 3900XT/3950X?

Ok!

I paid $899 plus tax Ok! And the price is relative, if Intel comes out with a GPU that's $1000 and offers a good performance increase I'd consider that too. Not trying to brag but I have almost $6,000 worth of subwoofers in my living room, however, I have a cheap $100 sub too, it performs as expected. It's about prices being relative.

 

[Zach_01]

I paid $899 plus tax Ok! And the price is relative, if Intel comes out with a GPU that's $1000 and offers a good performance increase I'd consider that too. Not trying to brag but I have almost $6,000 worth of subwoofers in my living room, however, I have a cheap $100 sub too, it performs as expected. It's about prices being relative.

I'm not arguing with that kind of relativity.
All I'm saying is that a 300$ CPU is better in gaming than a 500~750$ CPUs from previous gen.
And we dont know yet the all core performance...

 

[R0H1T]

Intel doesn't kill their old gen, they simply stop making them.

No they really kill them, EOL is the term you're looking for. With their chipset BS, if you're on the wrong gen you are locked out of upgrading!

You seem to attribute bizarre price fluctuations when supply on something old dries up to the manufacturer.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, aren't you? With post SKL chips they're just rebadging their old stuff & still doing the chipset BS

Also supply doesn't just dry up, when the manufacturer is adamant they need to rebadge their old stuff &/or lock out users from upgrading that's when this BS needs to be called out.

The same thing is happening in AMD space, the 1600X at Newegg is $245 vs the 3600 at $199. Using your logic, I guess AMD is price gouging huh?

And I got a 2700 at roughly $160 including taxes just in the last quarter, your point? Is it AMD price gouging or is it Newegg?

And if you think Zen 2 (3000) series will maintain availability for long, you might want to re-think that. It's highly unlikely that AMD will keep manufacturing cheap chips in the expensive and constrained TSMC 7nm pipeline.

That depends on how expensive 5nm is, looking at early reports zen2 is here to stay at least another year if not more!

 

[Turmania]

I truly believe, Ryzen has matured now, I have a strong feeling this 5xxx series will exceed expectations. But, on moral grounds their asking prices on both CPU and MB, they lost their foot on that front and can never use that anymore.

 

[RandallFlagg]

No they really kill them, EOL is the term you're looking for. With their chipset BS, if you're on the wrong gen you are locked out of upgrading!
You seem to be contradicting yourself, aren't you? With post SKL chips they're just rebadging their old stuff & still doing the chipset BS
...

And this is different from AMD how? You gonna run Zen 3 on a B350, after all it is an AM4 socket? For that matter, B450 is a dicey proposition and depends on the motherboard manufacturer. At least with Intel, you cannot insert the chip into a motherboard with a completely incompatible chipset.