Intel B460 and H410 Incompatibility with "Rocket Lake" Explained

[TheinsanegamerN]

In 4 years time, a RTX 5060 would be as fast as the current RTX 3090, and a 6 cores CPU won't cut it anymore. A cheap and easy upgrade to a second hand 11900F + RTX 5060 would be quite sufficient, plus you don't have to reinstall windows.
And from 10400F to 11900F would be a 50% performance upgrade (IPC + Clock speed + Core count) when paired with a RTX 3090 performance class GPU

OR, you could pick up a used 10700k or 10900k, since those wont be going anywhere either, and are you REALLY going to notice the 2-3% from 10th gen to 11th gen? Despite their IPC increases, the leaked scored from 3dmark and fromgame benchmarks show nearly 0 real world difference, and occasionally regression performance wise. I mean honestly, even today techspot showed 0 difference between a 3600 and a 10900k at resolutions above 1080p with GPUs like the 3090 and 6800xt

Core i5 10400F + Radeon RX 6800 Tested: Looking for the Best Value CPU

We check out Intel's Core i5-10400F, a direct competitor to the Ryzen 3600 to see how this budget CPU performs when paired with a last-generation high-end Radeon...

www.techspot.com

Is Zen 3 Worth It for Gaming? Ryzen 5600X vs. 3600 vs. Core i5-10400F

In order to wrap up our 6 core/12 thread CPU testing, we had to add the Ryzen 5 5600X to the mix. We're going back to the...

www.techspot.com

Ryzen 5 5600X vs. Ryzen 7 5800X vs. Ryzen 9 5900X vs. 5950X: GPU Scaling Benchmark

In this review we want to see how the Ryzen 5 5600X, Ryzen 7 5800X, Ryzen 9 5900X and 5950X compare in gaming performance using the RTX...

www.techspot.com

 

[nguyen]

OR, you could pick up a used 10700k or 10900k, since those wont be going anywhere either, and are you REALLY going to notice the 2-3% from 10th gen to 11th gen? Despite their IPC increases, the leaked scored from 3dmark and fromgame benchmarks show nearly 0 real world difference, and occasionally regression performance wise. I mean honestly, even today techspot showed 0 difference between a 3600 and a 10900k at resolutions above 1080p with GPUs like the 3090 and 6800xt

Core i5 10400F + Radeon RX 6800 Tested: Looking for the Best Value CPU

We check out Intel's Core i5-10400F, a direct competitor to the Ryzen 3600 to see how this budget CPU performs when paired with a last-generation high-end Radeon...

www.techspot.com

Is Zen 3 Worth It for Gaming? Ryzen 5600X vs. 3600 vs. Core i5-10400F

In order to wrap up our 6 core/12 thread CPU testing, we had to add the Ryzen 5 5600X to the mix. We're going back to the...

www.techspot.com

Ryzen 5 5600X vs. Ryzen 7 5800X vs. Ryzen 9 5900X vs. 5950X: GPU Scaling Benchmark

In this review we want to see how the Ryzen 5 5600X, Ryzen 7 5800X, Ryzen 9 5900X and 5950X compare in gaming performance using the RTX...

www.techspot.com

Like I mentioned websites load noticeably quicker on an i5 1135G7 Ultrabook than on my 9900K @ 5.1Ghz PC, the laptop was on wifi and my PC is wired, quite mind boggling really.
This is the biggest IPC improvement Intel has made since Sandy Bridge.
Well once Rocket Lake release you will know what I am talking about, although I will just wait for Ryzen 4 at this point.

 

[BigBonedCartman]

Intel chips are a security disaster, Apple is laughing all the way to record sales with their own CPU, and now they’re forcing new motherboards every generation what a joke Intel has become

 

[kapone32]

Like I mentioned websites load noticeably quicker on an i5 1135G7 Ultrabook than on my 9900K @ 5.1Ghz PC, the laptop was on wifi and my PC is wired, quite mind boggling really.
This is the biggest IPC improvement Intel has made since Sandy Bridge.
Well once Rocket Lake release you will know what I am talking about, although I will just wait for Ryzen 4 at this point.

Are you using WIFI 6.

 

[randompeep]

I find the cost difference between the two very minimal and H460 definitely offers some benefits. There is Optane support, RAID 0-5 support, extra USB ports, extra PCI-E lanes. All of those lead to better boards for next to no price difference.

I would be an a$$hole if I'd call Optane DOA, right ? At least for the average user...so nowdays Optane tech is not relevant at all. AMD came with an answer meanwhile - StoreMI, but how many % of PC users really give a damn about the elite/beta tech ?
How many people RAID their HDD's ?...data failure chance being higher in this case vs single drives.
And once again, the number of PCI-E lanes are not the main spot for those looking at the cheapest mobos.

If you're talking AMD, yes there are quite some differences between a B450 and A320 or the newer B550 vs A520.

I would be an a$$hole if I'd call Optane DOA, right ? At least for the average user...so nowdays Optane tech is not relevant at all. AMD came with an answer meanwhile - StoreMI, but how many % of PC users really give a damn about the elite/beta tech ?
How many people RAID their HDD's ?...data failure chance being higher in this case vs single drives.
And once again, the number of PCI-E lanes are not the main spot for those looking at the cheapest mobos.

If you're talking AMD, yes there are quite some differences between a B450 and A320 or the newer B550 vs A520.

And I agree on USB ports, that would be the most wanted feature for the average user knowing an USB hub is not the same shit as the USB on the mobo itself.

 

[newtekie1]

Cheap upgrade path, don't you get it? an 11900F would be cheaper to buy than an 10900K since Intel never reduce their CPU prices.
For example going from 7600K from a few years ago to 9900K now would totally extend the life of your gaming rig for a long time and for relatively low cost (Z170 motherboard can be modded to support 9900K).
Plus it save you all the trouble of reinstalling windows.

And the 11900F would be about the same price as a 10900F. So what does that 11900F give that the 10900F doesn't? You can just upgrade to the 10900F and be just fine in any task. Do you really need that 5% better performance that 11900F would give you? There is no "cheap" upgrade. If you do a cheap upgrade, then you're just doing a sidegrade and wasting money. If you are spending a decent amount of money, then that money basically gets you the same performance. I mean, if you decide to double the amount you spend on the 10400F and go buy a $300 CPU to upgrade to, you're getting a 10700F. That same ~$300 is going to get you a 11700F with only marginal performance improvements. It's pointless to worry about not being able to go to 11th gen, just upgrade within 10th gen. Or stick with what you got, because the 10400K ain't going to get slow just because the 11th gen comes out, and wait a 2 or 3 generations and upgrade then when the money really brings a performance improvement.

I would be an a$$hole if I'd call Optane DOA, right ? At least for the average user...so nowdays Optane tech is not relevant at all. AMD came with an answer meanwhile - StoreMI, but how many % of PC users really give a damn about the elite/beta tech ?

It's not just Optane, its the whole RST software. It isn't used by a large percentage of users, but it is used and useful. And I think if more people used it, they'd be surprised how good it is.

How many people RAID their HDD's ?...data failure chance being higher in this case vs single drives.

A lot. And if you think RAID increases data failure rate then you don't know anything about RAID. That happens with RAID0, which not many people use anymore, but with RAID1 and 5 it lowers the chance of data loss.

And once again, the number of PCI-E lanes are not the main spot for those looking at the cheapest mobos.

I'm not talking about the PCI-E slots, I'm talking about the lanes. The extra lanes allow board manufacturers to add other improvements to the board. Like extra M.2 slots, extra NICs, etc. I don't think I've seen a H410 board with more than 1 x4 M.2 slot.

And that isn't even considering that the VRMs on most H410 motherboards are pretty bad. Most are 4+1 or if you're lucky 6+1. Meaning if you put something like a 10400 in it, you're going to be loosing performance due to power limits. While most B460 board have good enough VRMs for a 10700/10900 to run at full boost.

And I agree on USB ports, that would be the most wanted feature for the average user knowing an USB hub is not the same shit as the USB on the mobo itself.

You have to be careful with that too. A lot of low end boards just integrate a USB hub in the board itself to get more PCI-E lanes. I've seen this done a lot in particular on AMD A300 boards since they only have like 2 USB ports from the chipset itself(well the chipset on the SoC).

 

[kjm015]

wow just how incompetent can Intel be, screwing over customers like no tomorrow .
Now how can I explain to my friend that his 10400F + B460 combo (which I built) can't be upgraded to 11th gen.

To be fair, Rocket Lake isn't going to be much of an improvement. Your friend is probably better off upgrading when Alder Lake comes out later this year, which will be on a new socket.

 

[dicktracy]

There is only one fanboy faction in the PC world and it's all from the AMD side. Hope you guys get paid to comment too lol.

 

[GoldenX]

Oh what a bad joke.
Guess all that marketing about "new platform" was a BIG FAT lie.

 

[Searing]

It really doesn't matter what the reason is, it was up to Intel to make it happen. Poor form, not buying a single one of these new processors. I'm not buying another motherboard for late 2021's processors also.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Oh, did we not say that new socketed mobo with pciex4 potential next year ,when it's proper CPU comes out,does in fact, have a ol' skool rerolled piece of shit PCH.

Wtaf does new platform mean to these tools.
If I was just learning this about my motherboard I wouldn't be happy.

Firms like MSI sell these With an upgrade caveat ,totes ball's.

Am I to believe their bullshit next time, I think not.

@Dick your funny, seen your vitreal in many an AMD hate thread, no balance.

 

[randompeep]

It's not just Optane, its the whole RST software. It isn't used by a large percentage of users, but it is used and useful. And I think if more people used it, they'd be surprised how good it is.



A lot. And if you think RAID increases data failure rate then you don't know anything about RAID. That happens with RAID0, which not many people use anymore, but with RAID1 and 5 it lowers the chance of data loss.



I'm not talking about the PCI-E slots, I'm talking about the lanes. The extra lanes allow board manufacturers to add other improvements to the board. Like extra M.2 slots, extra NICs, etc. I don't think I've seen a H410 board with more than 1 x4 M.2 slot.

And that isn't even considering that the VRMs on most H410 motherboards are pretty bad. Most are 4+1 or if you're lucky 6+1. Meaning if you put something like a 10400 in it, you're going to be loosing performance due to power limits. While most B460 board have good enough VRMs for a 10700/10900 to run at full boost.



You have to be careful with that too. A lot of low end boards just integrate a USB hub in the board itself to get more PCI-E lanes. I've seen this done a lot in particular on AMD A300 boards since they only have like 2 USB ports from the chipset itself(well the chipset on the SoC).

1. We're talking the big percentage of users, whose exceptations fall in line with having a brand new CPU with the option (but not the necessity) to an upgrade. Those who don't even bother installing the Rapid Storage drivers...so your argument is fatally shot
2. Lowering the chance is not better than eliminating the damage factor. So you may mind your own knowledge about these geeky things.
3. PCI-E lanes was what I was talking about too, sorry if it looked like a childish approach. So you're saying at the current state of MOBO advancement speed (getting higher end features on lower end boards), it's time to see two M2's on a sub 100$ board ? If some B460's have them, doesn't mean they're cheap and worth the extra $. The main cut (gamers) actually don't benefit a lot or not at all from NVMe speeds. The direct storage tech is gonna be next mainstream leap, but it looks like its adoptions will be much slower compared to SSD replacing HDD in avergage users' computer.

As I said earlier:
10600K/F or above - B460 or better
10400F or lower - H410

I don't know how many 10th gen Intels are gonna be on the second hand market a few years now; having the classic 'upgrade path' on AM4 may be worth it when prices go back to normal. But for now it's go the best CPU+cheapest (or uh, almost) compatible mobo you can afford. Not arguing on the weaker VRMs on B & H mobos, that's clearly the truth but hey the CPU support on the chipset sheet says you can do it, not you should do it. Like you can upgrade to a top-end CPU, but it may not be worth at all, especially after DDR5 gets to the masses!
Yeah, some A320's were utter crap. That's why they came with the A520's, which are decent to say at least.

I doubt you'd get some proof on this:
'Meaning if you put something like a 10400 in it, you're going to be loosing performance due to power limits' - 3% difference in Cinebench Multicore and I'm out learning the basics of computer hardware.

 

[newtekie1]

1. We're talking the big percentage of users, whose exceptations fall in line with having a brand new CPU with the option (but not the necessity) to an upgrade. Those who don't even bother installing the Rapid Storage drivers...so your argument is fatally shot

No it doesn't. The feature is nice to have, even if you don't think so.

2. Lowering the chance is not better than eliminating the damage factor. So you may mind your own knowledge about these geeky things.

You incorrectly said RAID raises the risk of data loss. My knowledge is obviously greater here. And people use it every day.

3. PCI-E lanes was what I was talking about too, sorry if it looked like a childish approach. So you're saying at the current state of MOBO advancement speed (getting higher end features on lower end boards), it's time to see two M2's on a sub 100$ board ? If some B460's have them, doesn't mean they're cheap and worth the extra $. The main cut (gamers) actually don't benefit a lot or not at all from NVMe speeds. The direct storage tech is gonna be next mainstream leap, but it looks like its adoptions will be much slower compared to SSD replacing HDD in avergage users' computer.

Even the cheap B460 boards have 2 M.2 slots. Hell, go on Newegg and search for LGA 1200 motherboards. The cheapest H410 from a reputable brand is $90. The cheapest B460 from a reputable brand is $92. What's the point in saving the $2? And there is a significantly better B460 board, with things like 4 memory slots and an actually good VRM for $105. What is the point in saving the $15? Even if you are going with a 10400, spend the $15 so you can at least have an option to upgrade later if you wanted.

I doubt you'd get some proof on this:
'Meaning if you put something like a 10400 in it, you're going to be loosing performance due to power limits' - 3% difference in Cinebench Multicore and I'm out learning the basics of computer hardware.

In a Cinebench R23 run, my 10400 stayed at full boost the entire time on a B460, it power throttled after ~2 minutes on an H410. Short tests like the older versions of Cinebench didn't run long enough to show the throttling. But the PL2 duration is significantly shorter on boards with crappy VRM. A 10400 under full load is pulling over 130w, there is no way a 4+1 phase motherboard can sustain that for more than a few seconds. Whether or not this affects the user will depend on what the user is doing with the computer. Is your grandma doing to notice it scrolling through cat memes on facebook? No. But then again, your grandma would be fine with a G5900. Will someone playing a game notice their CPU throttling? Yeah, probably. The 10400 is a good gaming chip at 4.3GHz, but not so much when it starts to throttle down to 2.9GHz to stay within the 65w power budget most H410 boards allow.

 

[napata]

Cheap upgrade path, don't you get it? an 11900F would be cheaper to buy than an 10900K since Intel never reduce their CPU prices.
For example going from 7600K from a few years ago to 9900K now would totally extend the life of your gaming rig for a long time and for relatively low cost (Z170 motherboard can be modded to support 9900K).
Plus it save you all the trouble of reinstalling windows.

Uh what? 10900K went from 530€ to 460€ in the last couple of months. Every Comet Lake CPU dropped 10-15% in the past 2 monhts. Intel has clearly reduced prices in response to them releasing Rocket Lake or to compete with Zen3.

 

[randompeep]

A 10400 under full load is pulling over 130w

I smell bs
Check TPU's review. I need to check my brothers' 10400F next month. I'm pretty sure his H410M S2H mobo handles it just fine, no power limits playaround, no BCLK f___ing.

And bare in mind not everyone live in North America, so the price scaling on newegg might be a little off (cheaper, as iPhones go on MSRPs lol)

Enjoy your beefier mobo Ma Fren!!

 

[GoldenX]

If you want to sell chipsets made in 22nm, fine, no one cares.
But don't resell old crap from 4 years ago!

 

[Mr Bill]

I dont really buy that for a second simply because web surfing uses so little of resources that I cant tell much difference between my 10500 ES and a older Celeron 1156 setup I got upstairs.


But to each their own I suppose.

Surfing the web, my old ASRock G41M-S3 with the Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9650 3GHz Quad-Core with 4 Gig of ram, is as fast, maybe faster than my Dell 3847 i5 4690 with 16 gig ram.

 

[KarymidoN]

i'm really hoping intel New Processors and Plataforms succeed.
AMD with the lead will just keep the prices High, we all need lower prices and better performance, ZEN3 is the proof that AMD is not really all that consumer friendly.
if only Intel could stop pulling shit like this i might be more optmistic tho.

 

[xSneak]

oh no, all the people with prebuilt computers from best buy and office depot can't upgrade their cpus.......

 

[Mr Bill]

oh no, all the people with prebuilt computers from best buy and office depot can't upgrade their cpus.......

Folks that buy a PC from Best Buy or Office Depot don't upgrade, they just whip out their credit card and buy another new one.

 

[newtekie1]

Folks that buy a PC from Best Buy or Office Depot don't upgrade, they just whip out their credit card and buy another new one.

I'm pretty sure that was the point he was making.

 

[Vendor]

none of them are saints, nvidia reportedly scalping their own GPUs and AMD also doesn't support SAM on anything than older than 5000 series CPUs while Intel does even on haswell which is a 2013 architecture, also amd did something similar by not giving pcie gen4 on a320 and b450 boards and was heavily criticized, excuses can be made by anyone. I am not justifying Intel's behavior it's just that people need to stop acting like AMD is honest with everything they do.

 

[Caring1]

none of them are saints, nvidia reportedly scalping their own GPUs and AMD also doesn't support SAM on anything than 5000 series CPUs while Intel does even on haswell which is a 2013 architecture, also amd did something similar by not giving pcie gen4 on a320 and b450 boards and was heavily criticized, excuses can be made by anyone. I am not justifying Intel's behavior it's just that people need to stop acting like AMD is honest with everything they do.

There's a few "internet truths" in that statement.
Basically lies believed to be true because they keep getting repeated.
Nvidia did not scalp their own GPU's, a small group of people took advantage of their position in the supply chain and tried to onsell GPUs.
SAM is supported on some previous Gen Motherboards and CPUs, it is GPU dependent.

 

[Minus Infinity]

Buys $600 CPU and worries that the $80 MB can't use it.

 

[watzupken]

"It turns out, that some batches of B460 and H410 PCH dies are re-badged from older generations of PCH, and built on the 22 nm silicon fabrication process; whereas the Z490 and H470 are based on a newer generation that's built on 14 nm."

This explanation only make things worst. It just proves that Intel have been rebranding old chipsets to use with "new" Sky Lake based processors, instead of allowing backward compatibility. So all the while, Intel have been recycling same processor and chipset, forcing people to upgrade motherboard if they want to upgrade to a newer CPU. All the more I won't be bothered about Intel as long as there are other alternatives out there.

none of them are saints, nvidia reportedly scalping their own GPUs and AMD also doesn't support SAM on anything than 5000 series CPUs while Intel does even on haswell which is a 2013 architecture, also amd did something similar by not giving pcie gen4 on a320 and b450 boards and was heavily criticized, excuses can be made by anyone. I am not justifying Intel's behavior it's just that people need to stop acting like AMD is honest with everything they do.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Not having SAM on older CPU does not stop you from using the system. LIkewise without PCI-E 4.0 enabled on older AMD chipset, you can still use your computer fine, and I would say that you won't even feel the difference in your daily usage of your computer. Here, Intel is denying you of the option to have a drop in processor upgrade on your B460/ H410 boards. You have to buy a new board to use it with the new processor. There is a significant difference between not having a non-critical feature vs completely not being able to use a less than 1 year old motherboard with a new processor. Its a show stopper in this case. And unfortunately, this is a common practice for Intel where people have proved otherwise what Intel claimed as incompatible.

Buys $600 CPU and worries that the $80 MB can't use it.

You know that there's a range of Rocket Lake processors right? Your average i3 and i5 won't be in the 600 bucks price range.