Intel Apparently Discounting 10th-Gen CPUs in Bid to Claw Market from AMD

[qcmadness]

I said 7nm. More than half of TSMCs capacity is larger than 12nm.

You list fab 12 for example. Below is a breakdown, the red circled nodes are 16nm, 20nm, and 28-150nm parts of fab 12. The total capacity of that fab is 77500-123800, and most of it is not 7nm.

View attachment 188149

Intel's fab in Oregon is more sophisticated:

View attachment 188150

Are your information updated?

TSMC 7nm process output to top 140,000 wafers monthly

TSMC has already scaled up its 7nm process output to 130,000 wafers monthly ahead of schedule, with the monthly production set to climb further to 140,000 units at the end of this year, according to industry sources.

www.digitimes.com

TSMC 7nm process output to top 140,000 wafers monthly


And what you have got in Wikipedia, is using the source in year 2013. No wonder there is no 7nm capacity.

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RandallFlagg]

Are your information updated?

TSMC 7nm process output to top 140,000 wafers monthly

TSMC has already scaled up its 7nm process output to 130,000 wafers monthly ahead of schedule, with the monthly production set to climb further to 140,000 units at the end of this year, according to industry sources.

www.digitimes.com

TSMC 7nm process output to top 140,000 wafers monthly


And what you have got in Wikipedia, is using the source in year 2013. No wonder there is no 7nm capacity.

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So lets recap this:

I said : "They [Intel] probably have more 10nm capacity than TSMC has 7nm capacity."

This simple comment seems to be beyond your ability to comprehend or deal with at some level.

So you stated that TSMC had multiple gigafabs that can make > 100,000 wafers per month, implying that they could make ~500K+ 7nm wafers per month. That was easily debunked as that is (maybe) total capacity of those fabs, not their 7nm capacity.

You clearly were not aware that a chip plant has multiple fab nodes. See previous post.

So now you are saying something different, that TSMC has 140,000 wafers per month capacity on 7nm total, after expansion in late 2020?

Well at least you're learning to use the internet to get facts. It might interest you that I long ago read that article.

So here are some facts you might have found had you bothered to check the other side of the equation.

Intel does not give us direct numbers like that for their capacity, but we do know what their overall capacity is and how many fabs they have, and which ones can make 10nm. We also know that when Intel converts a fab, they convert the whole thing, that's why the Oregon fab can make 10 and 14nm on all nodes. Two nodes can make 22nm, and two others are being upgraded to do 7nm. With the exception of a couple of older fabs (which do 65nm / 32nm for legacy spares) that is the Intel way.

Intel has 15 fabs. They have about 890,000 wafer starts per month total. This means the average fab has 890,000 / 15 = 59133 wafer starts per month. 3 of their fabs are 10nm.

3 10nm fabs x 59133 wafers / month = 177,400 wafers / month.

177,400 > 140,000

Except, Fab 42, is 10nm and is by far their largest fab. So they can probably make more than that. Anyway, I used the word probably, and all available data backs that up.

So are you now informed?

And what you have got in Wikipedia, is using the source in year 2013. No wonder there is no 7nm capacity.

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are 387 references there. Many are from 2020. How on earth you zeroed in on just the first reference is a mystery.

 

[gsvelto]

why would you undercut a competitor, when their products are hardly available to be sold. but still a good move from Intel.

Supply and demand. Some people must still picking AMD processors over Intel even with the inflated prices and wait times for getting Ryzen 3 CPUs.

 

[qcmadness]

So lets recap this:

I said : "They [Intel] probably have more 10nm capacity than TSMC has 7nm capacity."

This simple comment seems to be beyond your ability to comprehend or deal with at some level.

So you stated that TSMC had multiple gigafabs that can make > 100,000 wafers per month, implying that they could make ~500K+ 7nm wafers per month. That was easily debunked as that is (maybe) total capacity of those fabs, not their 7nm capacity.

You clearly were not aware that a chip plant has multiple fab nodes. See previous post.

So now you are saying something different, that TSMC has 140,000 wafers per month capacity on 7nm total, after expansion in late 2020?

Well at least you're learning to use the internet to get facts. It might interest you that I long ago read that article.

So here are some facts you might have found had you bothered to check the other side of the equation.

[red]Intel does not give us direct numbers like that for their capacity, but we do know what their overall capacity is and how many fabs they have, and which ones can make 10nm. We also know that when Intel converts a fab, they convert the whole thing, that's why the Oregon fab can make 10 and 14nm on all nodes. Two nodes can make 22nm, and two others are being upgraded to do 7nm. With the exception of a couple of older fabs (which do 65nm / 32nm for legacy spares) that is the Intel way.

Intel has 15 fabs. They have about 890,000 wafer starts per month total. This means the average fab has 890,000 / 15 = 59133 wafer starts per month. 3 of their fabs are 10nm.[/red]

3 10nm fabs x 59133 wafers / month = 177,400 wafers / month.

177,400 > 140,000

Except, Fab 42, is 10nm and is by far their largest fab. So they can probably make more than that. Anyway, I used the word probably, and all available data backs that up.

So are you now informed?



[blue]There are 387 references there. Many are from 2020. How on earth you zeroed in on just the first reference is a mystery.[/blue]

The text in red is your speculation but not fact.

The text in blue is what you is using to claim TSMC is not that advanced. The [1] is the reference that I posted. You then just used the 2013 reference and claim that the fabs are not upgraded at all in 8 years. It is you that need comprehension.

At least I tried to check with the capacity. You use speculations only.

 

[billEST]

guys wafer is not fonctional processor .....

and they dont work 100 % for intel or amd ...

 

[zlobby]

Intel, meh! I wouldn't touch it with 6 feet pole.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Nice to see, better prices are welcome.
What's not to like about it.

 

[xenocide]

guys wafer is not fonctional processor .....

and they dont work 100 % for intel or amd ...

That is the unknown factor. We don't have numbers on yield, but we know that Intel had initially been struggling with yield on 10nm, and has since made improvements. Likewise, we know Samsung's 8nm process was struggling, but has since gotten better (for Nvidia 3000 series GPUs). TSMC's 7nm has good yield from what we've known, the problem is they are overloaded with requests. Between AMD CPU's, AMD GPU's, and various mobile SoC's, they have a ton of requests and cannot meet demand. Now, plenty of stuff in those categories is being shifted to their 5nm process, but that process is basically dominated by Apple, who has a deal that ensures they are the first in line for all new manufacturing nodes from TSMC.

 

[Arcdar]

Sadly seems to be over already - and never available for Germany .... In Germany the 10700F is listed @ 264€ on Amazon (and cheapest price on "Geizhals.de" is 258€) which is about 280$ ?

And even on the US page it isn't shown at the price mentioned here anymore. Just checked if I can get it delivered to my business partner and pick it up next time I'm there.... but sadly, also not an option. 230$ for the 10700F would
actually have been tempting

 

[billEST]

Sadly seems to be over already - and never available for Germany .... In Germany the 10700F is listed @ 264€ on Amazon (and cheapest price on "Geizhals.de" is 258€) which is about 280$ ?

And even on the US page it isn't shown at the price mentioned here anymore. Just checked if I can get it delivered to my business partner and pick it up next time I'm there.... but sadly, also not an option. 230$ for the 10700F would
actually have been tempting

View attachment 188380

6 week before new cpu !!! you have time , 370 chipse et 9 generation is already sell

 

[Chrispy_]

Intel 14nm has its downsides but I'm all for reduced prices on the 10700KF and 10400F. Those are already decent value and reasonably easy to find in stock, lower prices are always welcome.

 

[Arcdar]

6 week before new cpu !!! you have time , 370 chipse et 9 generation is already sell

I don't need "the newest" anymore.... I've grown past my urges to change my Cirix6x86 to an intel celeron 133 and this one to the celeron 166mmx in the timeframe of less than a year . But as my "good old" 2500k is starting to fail me I have to replace it with something that is good enough for what I need it for. And as that's beside some Lightroom which all of them can handle (and is anyway accelerated by my 3070) just "light" gaming in 1440p I really don't care that much about the last %.

I just care about decent value for the money I spend - and, sadly, as I'd like to at least have a choice in ram-speeds it'll be a Z-board and a decent CPU (10400f and above) with some decent ram to it. Yes, I also looked at AMD but as I'm an asus-user since Pentium times the price/value isn't that much better (yes, that's the fault of Asus and my nitpicking stupidity of sticking with them even though they don't deserve it anymore ).


So for me, this would have been a great deal. But whatever. I'll get a new one one day ^^

 

[RandallFlagg]

I don't need "the newest" anymore.... I've grown past my urges to change my Cirix6x86 to an intel celeron 133 and this one to the celeron 166mmx in the timeframe of less than a year . But as my "good old" 2500k is starting to fail me I have to replace it with something that is good enough for what I need it for. And as that's beside some Lightroom which all of them can handle (and is anyway accelerated by my 3070) just "light" gaming in 1440p I really don't care that much about the last %.

I just care about decent value for the money I spend - and, sadly, as I'd like to at least have a choice in ram-speeds it'll be a Z-board and a decent CPU (10400f and above) with some decent ram to it. Yes, I also looked at AMD but as I'm an asus-user since Pentium times the price/value isn't that much better (yes, that's the fault of Asus and my nitpicking stupidity of sticking with them even though they don't deserve it anymore ).


So for me, this would have been a great deal. But whatever. I'll get a new one one day ^^

Eh, I see the 10400F at 133 Euro on Amazon.de ($161 USD). By comparison the R5 3500 is 190 Euro i.e. about $230USD. Everything seems to be about 15% higher than in the US, but the 10400 is still relatively cheap.

 

[ThrashZone]

Sadly seems to be over already - and never available for Germany .... In Germany the 10700F is listed @ 264€ on Amazon (and cheapest price on "Geizhals.de" is 258€) which is about 280$ ?

And even on the US page it isn't shown at the price mentioned here anymore. Just checked if I can get it delivered to my business partner and pick it up next time I'm there.... but sadly, also not an option. 230$ for the 10700F would
actually have been tempting

View attachment 188380

Hi,
There it is people even get a cooler with it.

 

[Arcdar]

Eh, I see the 10400F at 133 Euro on Amazon.de ($161 USD). By comparison the R5 3500 is 190 Euro i.e. about $230USD. Everything seems to be about 15% higher than in the US, but the 10400 is still relatively cheap.

yeah. In general if something is shown MSRP in the US we take that number, add a € sign and ~10-20% on top and have our prices. Even though it doesn't make sense (and the taxes would actually easily be covered by the difference in currency - so 499$ could easily be sold at 499€ where the company still would make more profit from € sales .... but it's even easier to price-hike it even more )

Hi,
There it is people even get a cooler with it.

yeah. I don't really care about that, as I'll keep my 280mm Corsair AIO in any case - no matter if AMD or Intel being cooled .... so why should I pay more just to have a cooler which I won't use?

 

[londiste]

yeah. In general if something is shown MSRP in the US we take that number, add a € sign and ~10-20% on top and have our prices. Even though it doesn't make sense (and the taxes would actually easily be covered by the difference in currency - so 499$ could easily be sold at 499€ where the company still would make more profit from € sales .... but it's even easier to price-hike it even more )

Germany (like that Amazon.de example form before) has 19% VAT and that is always included in the shown price.
$499 is about 415€, add 19% to it and you get 494€.

 

[Arcdar]

Germany (like that Amazon.de example form before) has 19% VAT and that is always included in the shown price.
$499 is about 415€, add 19% to it and you get 494€.

So you do get, that what I said, is essentially right - a 499$ product could easily be sold for 499€ - but that's never the case (a 499$ product gets either a 549€ or even 500€ MSRP), except for Steam/digital sales, but even there they sometimes add "a bit on top" ( 19,99$ becomes 24,99€ ). Like I said. US MSRP + 10-20% on top and just exchange $ to € sign and you know what we pay for it.

 

[Vayra86]

Intel, meh! I wouldn't touch it with 6 feet pole.

Try a 10nm one

I think a lot of what Intel is getting in volume now is because quite simply, product is scarce. When supply channels are comfortable again, you will see more Zen success payout. The problem is that time is not on AMD's side, because their lead won't last indefinitely.

But I'm with you, honestly... after years of shitty quads and then piling onto that with a wealth of security problems and performance degradation because of fixes for it, its clear Core is at the end of its lifecycle and has been ever since 14nm / Skylake. What came after was just pushing the boundaries into inefficiency. And Intel has no solution right now, or in its current portfolio, they're just tossing every possible floorplan at the wall and pray something sticks.

Definitely not a company I'd support right now, as they're clearly displaying incompetence on every level, most notably long term lifecycle management. They should have had their 'groundbreaking new designs' in 2016 already, but they realistically started 3 years later even despite the absence of low hanging fruit - they were content just bumping up clocks and adding pluses, a move that directly harmed their 10nm value. Lifecycle management and how not to do it - they literally forced themselves to cannibalize the very node they invested too much in and are still trying to save. Do we even logic?

 

[RandallFlagg]

So you do get, that what I said, is essentially right - a 499$ product could easily be sold for 499€ - but that's never the case (a 499$ product gets either a 549€ or even 500€ MSRP), except for Steam/digital sales, but even there they sometimes add "a bit on top" ( 19,99$ becomes 24,99€ ). Like I said. US MSRP + 10-20% on top and just exchange $ to € sign and you know what we pay for it.

Out of curiosity, is there any further tax that adds to final actual cost in Germany?

To use the 133 Euro / $190 USD example of the 10400 - the lowest 10400F I see on Amazon US right now is $146.67. I live in Texas where sales tax is 8.25%, so my actual cost would be 146.67 + 12.10 sales tax = $158.77 which is the same as $131.1 Euro. So is that 133 Euro the actual final cost, or are there additional taxes like in the USA?

Worth noting that in the US, there are many different sales tax rates, it depends on the state you live in. As example Texas has slightly higher than normal sales tax and way higher than normal property tax, but no state income taxes.

 

[londiste]

Out of curiosity, is there any further tax that adds to final actual cost in Germany?

No, the listed price is what you pay.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
All countries in the EU have a Vat import tax upwards to 19% on top of retail or even gougers price if shipped from another country
USA has import tax too just called a tariff instead of Vat.
Applies to rma costs too.

 

[Arcdar]

Out of curiosity, is there any further tax that adds to final actual cost in Germany?

To use the 133 Euro / $190 USD example of the 10400 - the lowest 10400F I see on Amazon US right now is $146.67. I live in Texas where sales tax is 8.25%, so my actual cost would be 146.67 + 12.10 sales tax = $158.77 which is the same as $131.1 Euro. So is that 133 Euro the actual final cost, or are there additional taxes like in the USA?

Worth noting that in the US, there are many different sales tax rates, it depends on the state you live in. As example Texas has slightly higher than normal sales tax and way higher than normal property tax, but no state income taxes.

yeah.... it was something that really bugged my all the time "over there" (I lived for 2.5 years in the Bay and 0.5 years in Boston). In Germany, and I think all of Europe, prices shown are what you pay. Including taxes. In every regard. Shopping, restaurants, gas, etc.

So no, as londiste said, nothing added on top. So yes, like I said, the 10400f is very nicely priced ... sadly, it's the only one priced this ncely

 

[GerKNG]

enough said (i got it delivered and it's brand new and sealed.)

 

[DAWMan]

Amazing how people still believe a processor can be locked.

They’re simply lower binned CPUs, but I like the cheaper lower watt variants for streaming audio.
You can easily get 400MHz on a single voltage bump.

When I see someone even mention the CPU is locked I thank them because now I know I can avoid reading further “expert” opinions.

 

[Ufasas]

If you're near a microcenter, it's even better.

10600K for $189. 10700K (yes K) is $279. 10850K is $350.

10400 is $129 and 10700 is $249, which both come with a stock cooler - and you can use the stock cooler with both of those no problem.

10600k - 125 wattage, my i5-3570k - 77 wattage, no thanks, i OCed 3570k to 4.5ghz, and it runs like ferrari, still no upgrade needed