Maps, science, data & statistics tracking of COVID-19

[Space Lynx]

I still think mRNA has saved the day more than anything else, but I understand your arguments too. As far economies not collapsing goes, if I were running a country, I think I'd be switching over to mRNA. (this is just from a strategic standpoint economically speaking)

 

[dragontamer5788]

I still think mRNA has saved the day more than anything else, but I understand your arguments too. As far economies not collapsing goes, if I were running a country, I think I'd be switching over to mRNA. (this is just from a strategic standpoint economically speaking)

mRNA is only useful if you have the strategic supercomputers (and the research programs / computer programs that run on those computers) needed to compute the protein folds. There's a reason why only the USA is manufacturing these.

There's discussion about whether or not the US should release the patent to the mRNA vaccine. I'm not sure what to think of it. "Trust in big-pharma" is probably wrong. But there's something to be said about why something like this is incredibly valuable. If our patent system came up with the solution, then yes, it was the success of our patent system... and we shouldn't undermine it (so that the next disease can also be attacked with our patent system).

EDIT: We know what the virus looks like: https://github.com/berthubert/bnt162b2/blob/master/ncov-s.fasta

We know what the vaccine looks like: https://github.com/berthubert/bnt162b2/blob/master/vaccine-s.fasta

The DNA-printers that make this stuff are available for 15000 EUR or so, probably more for a manufacturing-quality version. Its now a question of patent law, and the supercomputer infrastructure needed to support these kinds of designs.

EDIT2: This blog post talks about the manufacturing details: https://blog.jonasneubert.com/2021/...fizer-biontech-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines/. A major step is verification of all of these molecules: ensuring we've got the right mRNA in the vat-of-proteins before we inject it into our veins. There are also lots of special equipment (mRNA is good and all, but it needs to be combined with lipids before our body accepts it. And very few people know the details of that magic process).

 

[Space Lynx]

Watch: India's leader Narendra Modi holds rally as coronavirus tears across country | CNN

CNN's Clarissa Ward reports from New Delhi on the growing criticism of Prime Minister Narendra Modi over his failure to control a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic in India.

www.cnn.com

Millions gather in Hindu ritual as coronavirus surges in India

So India apparently hasn't learned it's lesson yet and is aiming to achieve herd immunity through other means... sigh...

 

[64K]

Watch: India's leader Narendra Modi holds rally as coronavirus tears across country | CNN

CNN's Clarissa Ward reports from New Delhi on the growing criticism of Prime Minister Narendra Modi over his failure to control a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic in India.

www.cnn.com

Millions gather in Hindu ritual as coronavirus surges in India

So India apparently hasn't learned it's lesson yet and is aiming to achieve herd immunity through other means... sigh...

Amazing!

 

[Space Lynx]

mRNA is only useful if you have the strategic supercomputers (and the research programs / computer programs that run on those computers) needed to compute the protein folds. There's a reason why only the USA is manufacturing these.

There's discussion about whether or not the US should release the patent to the mRNA vaccine. I'm not sure what to think of it. "Trust in big-pharma" is probably wrong. But there's something to be said about why something like this is incredibly valuable. If our patent system came up with the solution, then yes, it was the success of our patent system... and we shouldn't undermine it (so that the next disease can also be attacked with our patent system).

EDIT: We know what the virus looks like: https://github.com/berthubert/bnt162b2/blob/master/ncov-s.fasta

We know what the vaccine looks like: https://github.com/berthubert/bnt162b2/blob/master/vaccine-s.fasta

The DNA-printers that make this stuff are available for 15000 EUR or so, probably more for a manufacturing-quality version. Its now a question of patent law, and the supercomputer infrastructure needed to support these kinds of designs.

EDIT2: This blog post talks about the manufacturing details: https://blog.jonasneubert.com/2021/...fizer-biontech-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines/. A major step is verification of all of these molecules: ensuring we've got the right mRNA in the vat-of-proteins before we inject it into our veins. There are also lots of special equipment (mRNA is good and all, but it needs to be combined with lipids before our body accepts it. And very few people know the details of that magic process).

Biden team says it supports waiving patent protections on Covid-19 vaccines

Progressive Democrats have pushed President Joe Biden to endorse a broad waiver of all intellectual property protections for Covid-19 vaccines, therapeutics and diagnostics.

www.politico.com

Biden team says it supports waiving patent protections on Covid-19 vaccines

Let's hope Pfizer and the others are still willing to innovate after this...

 

[R0H1T]

Watch: India's leader Narendra Modi holds rally as coronavirus tears across country | CNN

CNN's Clarissa Ward reports from New Delhi on the growing criticism of Prime Minister Narendra Modi over his failure to control a second wave of the coronavirus pandemic in India.

www.cnn.com

Millions gather in Hindu ritual as coronavirus surges in India

So India apparently hasn't learned it's lesson yet and is aiming to achieve herd immunity through other means... sigh...

That's old news & video footage ~ no election rallies held for at least a fortnight by Modi & Kumbh also ended a while back. Why is CNN regurgitating the same old piece again?

 

[Space Lynx]

That's old news & video footage ~ no election rallies held for at least a fortnight by Modi & Kumbh also ended a while back. Why is CNN regurgitating the same old piece again?

no idea. but that article was posted today when I linked it anyway. its a video so can't tell for sure, but I know it was the front page today. so I have no idea.

 

[claes]

Biden team says it supports waiving patent protections on Covid-19 vaccines

Progressive Democrats have pushed President Joe Biden to endorse a broad waiver of all intellectual property protections for Covid-19 vaccines, therapeutics and diagnostics.

www.politico.com

Biden team says it supports waiving patent protections on Covid-19 vaccines

Let's hope Pfizer and the others are still willing to innovate after this...

It’s highly unlikely that they’ll let the patents ago, but realistically there’s not much innovation going on here. mRNA vaccines have been around for awhile, and only required a few tweaks to produce a working Covid vaccine (never mind that this work was subsidized by project warp speed and other initiatives).

I know I posted this before but for posterity’s sake, here’s a university that produced a vaccine back in May of last year based on public research and without proprietary methods — they just couldn’t secure investment for phase three trials:

Finland Had a Patent-Free COVID-19 Vaccine Nine Months Ago — But Still Went With Big Pharma

A team of leading Finnish researchers had a patent-free COVID-19 vaccine ready last May, which could have allowed countries all over the world to inoculate their populations without paying top dollar. Yet rather than help the initiative, Finland's government sided with Big Pharma — showing how a...

jacobinmag.com

 

[Space Lynx]

It’s highly unlikely that they’ll let the patents ago, but realistically there’s not much innovation going on here. mRNA vaccines have been around for awhile, and only required a few tweaks to produce a working Covid vaccine (never mind that this work was subsidized by project warp speed and other initiatives).

I know I posted this before but for posterity’s sake, here’s a university that produced a vaccine back in May of last year based on public research and without proprietary methods — they just couldn’t secure investment for phase three trials:

Finland Had a Patent-Free COVID-19 Vaccine Nine Months Ago — But Still Went With Big Pharma

A team of leading Finnish researchers had a patent-free COVID-19 vaccine ready last May, which could have allowed countries all over the world to inoculate their populations without paying top dollar. Yet rather than help the initiative, Finland's government sided with Big Pharma — showing how a...

jacobinmag.com

Pfizer is making crazy money right now, selling the vaccine to many countries. Take that away from them, or even remove the patent from that, means they have less incentive to push hard in the future for something else ground breaking. Why cure cancer with mRNA when you will have to sell it for free after only a minimal profit? I'd like to think people have good hearts too, but the world has chewed me up and spit me out to many times to fall for that old cliché again.

 

[claes]

You missed the point... A public university “innovated” mRNA more efficiently than Pfizer did in only a few weeks using non-proprietary research... If a small, publicly funded university lab can produce a working vaccine sooner than a multi-billion dollar Pfizer/biontech can (using German tax payer money to do so), then how exactly did Pfizer innovate? I’d hardly call replicating what a small lab did in a few weeks in several months “groundbreaking.”

The patent waivers don’t actually prevent them from owning patents, it just forces them to share the patent with other manufacturers who can then manufacture x company’s drug for the duration of the waiver. They still own the IP and can exercise their right to it once the waiver expires. I know Moderna said they planned on doing as much back in October, I’d be surprised if the rest didn’t say the same (and aren’t simultaneously fighting the waivers lol).

Really — if that Finland vaccine had been brought to and completed stage three trials then proprietary Covid vaccines wouldn’t be profitable at all...

 

[Space Lynx]

You missed the point... A public university “innovated” mRNA more efficiently than Pfizer did in only a few weeks using non-proprietary research... If a small, publicly funded university lab can produce a working vaccine sooner than a multi-billion dollar Pfizer/biontech can (using German tax payer money to do so), then how exactly did Pfizer innovate? I’d hardly call replicating what a small lab did in a few weeks in several months “groundbreaking.”

The patent waivers don’t actually prevent them from owning patents, it just forces them to share the patent with other manufacturers who can then manufacture x company’s drug for the duration of the waiver. They still own the IP and can exercise their right to it once the waiver expires. I know Moderna said they planned on doing as much back in October, I’d be surprised if the rest didn’t say the same (and aren’t simultaneously fighting the waivers lol).

Really — if that Finland vaccine had been brought to and completed stage three trials then proprietary Covid vaccines wouldn’t be profitable at all...

good point and I believe DARPA or some USA government heavily funded Moderna early on too... which is ultimately tax payer money, so yes you are correct. I concede. Thank you for explaining it better.

Hmm. Not sure where we go from here though, because the means is in the production capabilities though... so a small university as you say, does still need to prove itself in that regard, even with funding... creating a factory is no easy task, and Pfizer has done that many times. Small universities have done that probably 0 on the scales needed. That would be the only argument I have left.

 

[Tatty_Two]

Can the US even make a decision either way regarding the Pfizer vaccine? My understanding is that the patent rests with the developer of the vaccine which is BioNtech, Pfizer was brought to the party for support with clinical trials, logistics, and manufacturing, but not sure how it works in these circumstances.

 

[Vayra86]

Biden team says it supports waiving patent protections on Covid-19 vaccines

Progressive Democrats have pushed President Joe Biden to endorse a broad waiver of all intellectual property protections for Covid-19 vaccines, therapeutics and diagnostics.

www.politico.com

Biden team says it supports waiving patent protections on Covid-19 vaccines

Let's hope Pfizer and the others are still willing to innovate after this...

Pfizer and other mRNA vaccines were built on university studies, not on their in-house technology. So: public, taxpayer money facilities.

They better not whine about it. Did you see the profit margin yet? Billions, and over 3x the cost of making one.

You missed the point... A public university “innovated” mRNA more efficiently than Pfizer did in only a few weeks using non-proprietary research... If a small, publicly funded university lab can produce a working vaccine sooner than a multi-billion dollar Pfizer/biontech can (using German tax payer money to do so), then how exactly did Pfizer innovate? I’d hardly call replicating what a small lab did in a few weeks in several months “groundbreaking.”

The patent waivers don’t actually prevent them from owning patents, it just forces them to share the patent with other manufacturers who can then manufacture x company’s drug for the duration of the waiver. They still own the IP and can exercise their right to it once the waiver expires. I know Moderna said they planned on doing as much back in October, I’d be surprised if the rest didn’t say the same (and aren’t simultaneously fighting the waivers lol).

Really — if that Finland vaccine had been brought to and completed stage three trials then proprietary Covid vaccines wouldn’t be profitable at all...

Ah. Thanks. I think we're reading news in a similar place of the world, seeing as we bring similar points pretty often

 

[Space Lynx]

You missed the point... A public university “innovated” mRNA more efficiently than Pfizer did in only a few weeks using non-proprietary research... If a small, publicly funded university lab can produce a working vaccine sooner than a multi-billion dollar Pfizer/biontech can (using German tax payer money to do so), then how exactly did Pfizer innovate? I’d hardly call replicating what a small lab did in a few weeks in several months “groundbreaking.”

The patent waivers don’t actually prevent them from owning patents, it just forces them to share the patent with other manufacturers who can then manufacture x company’s drug for the duration of the waiver. They still own the IP and can exercise their right to it once the waiver expires. I know Moderna said they planned on doing as much back in October, I’d be surprised if the rest didn’t say the same (and aren’t simultaneously fighting the waivers lol).

Really — if that Finland vaccine had been brought to and completed stage three trials then proprietary Covid vaccines wouldn’t be profitable at all...

US shift on vaccines embarrasses Europe before India summit

Continent divided over Biden’s proposal for patent waiver but Berlin sounds skeptical.

www.politico.eu

looks like Germany agrees with the argument I just made, it's not about the patent its about the safety and complexity of the manufacturing process staying in experienced hands. basically was my last argument a few posts up. maybe Germany politicians read this thread LMAO

 

[R-T-B]

looks like Germany agrees with the argument I just made, it's not about the patent its about the safety and complexity of the manufacturing process staying in experienced hands

I thought determining if the end product was safe was the FDA's purpose for existing?

 

[dragontamer5788]

I thought determining if the end product was safe was the FDA's purpose for existing?

To a fault. IIRC: FDA doesn't do comparative studies (is X better than Y?). FDA only does efficacy studies (is X better than placebo?).

It turns out that those are very different: you can't just combine two efficacy studies (is X better than placebo) vs (is Y better than placebo), because the two studies may have subtly different methodologies and/or pools of people they studied. I mean... you can do so and try to form an argument (and many people make arguments of that nature). But arguments of this form are fundamentally invalid.

But yes, FDA's bread-and-butter regulation / studies are "X better than placebo??" questions.

 

[R-T-B]

To a fault. IIRC: FDA doesn't do comparative studies (is X better than Y?). FDA only does efficacy studies (is X better than placebo?).

It turns out that those are very different: you can't just combine two efficacy studies (is X better than placebo) vs (is Y better than placebo), because the two studies may have subtly different methodologies and/or pools of people they studied. I mean... you can do so and try to form an argument (and many people make arguments of that nature). But arguments of this form are fundamentally invalid.

But yes, FDA's bread-and-butter regulation / studies are "X better than placebo??" questions.

I'm not so concerned about efficacy as that'll sure be out in data form eventually regardless, even if not at a specific generic product launch.

I was speaking specifically to product safety, ie "this will not kill you or cause you to be in severe pain"

 

[Space Lynx]

I thought determining if the end product was safe was the FDA's purpose for existing?

I don't think you understand at all the issue here, this has nothing to do with United States FDA...

USA wants to release patent so OTHER countries can make their own Pfizer vaccine. BioNTech did all the research on this mRNA tech, it is true, I don't think they care about the patent, they are rich enough now, but they are worried about say some poor country having access to how to make the Pfizer vaccine (once patent becomes open source for it), and they will mess up some very small detail during the manufacturing process that might cause severe symptoms or death in those who get that vaccine - because this level of manufacturing is extremely advanced, and Pfizer is probably one of the few companies with enough experience and engineers to do it. The more accidents you have from some poor countries poor attempt at the recreation of the Pfizer vaccine, the less people will trust vaccines in those countries.

It would be much much cheaper to just keep making deals with Pfizer and Moderna to scale up their operations - and sell cheaply to other countries, but Pfizer/Moderna (operating within certain regions to better service multiple regions of the world) is the best approach imo. WHO already has funds to buy these vaccines from Pfizer/Moderna to send to poorer countries, that funding just needs expanded now that we see what's happening in the Seychelle's. Prevention of death is great and all, but you want the vaccine that will re-open the world economy so it doesn't all collapse. (the Seychelle's economy is currently closed even though a lot are vaccinated, just not with the mRNA one).

 

[R-T-B]

I don't think you understand at all the issue here, this has nothing to do with United States FDA...

I was indeed being geocentric to my region, apologies.

 

[Space Lynx]

I was indeed being geocentric to my region, apologies.

No need to apologize, just think you had some brain fog in relation to the issue at hand lol

it's ok covid recovery Frog, I got yo back... buy you flies to eat...

 

[R-T-B]

No need to apologize, just think you had some brain fog in relation to the issue at hand lol

I'll blame covid.

 

[claes]

US shift on vaccines embarrasses Europe before India summit

Continent divided over Biden’s proposal for patent waiver but Berlin sounds skeptical.

www.politico.eu

looks like Germany agrees with the argument I just made, it's not about the patent its about the safety and complexity of the manufacturing process staying in experienced hands. basically was my last argument a few posts up. maybe Germany politicians read this thread LMAO

Most of the EU are saying they are for patent waivers, except Germany, according to the article, but are annoyed that the US changed their position on COVAX, which makes a lot of sense since the US still hasn’t agreed to participate in COVAX and is stockpiling 2x as many doses as we could possibly need. In this way, the US suddenly being pro patent waivers is disingenuous, since patent waivers would still mean that the US hasn’t committed to the global vaccination effort while COVAX partners would foot the bill with whatever alleged benefit patent waivers bring in reducing costs.

Most vaccines aren’t actually produced in the country of origin, or even by the developer, but are actually outsourced to companies in places like India, who is producing the majority of Covid 19 vaccines for the world (ironically, their outbreak is supposedly what changed the US’s mind, and they stopped exporting vaccines two months ago).

If I understand correctly (please correct me if I’m wrong), from there they’re sent to places like the US, where a regulatory body, like the FDA, determines if they’re safe.

If you read further down in the article, those defending patent rights are actually more concerned about patents surrounding things like manufacturing and storage techniques, which are beyond the scope of the patents for the vaccine themselves.

USA wants to release patent so OTHER countries can make their own Pfizer vaccine. BioNTech did all the research on this mRNA tech, it is true, I don't think they care about the patent, they are rich enough now, but they are worried about say some poor country having access to how to make the Pfizer vaccine (once patent becomes open source for it), and they will mess up some very small detail during the manufacturing process that might cause severe symptoms or death in those who get that vaccine - because this level of manufacturing is extremely advanced, and Pfizer is probably one of the few companies with enough experience and engineers to do it. The more accidents you have from some poor countries poor attempt at the recreation of the Pfizer vaccine, the less people will trust vaccines in those countries.

I would not put this much faith in big pharma biontech and Pfizer are beholden to their shareholders, and while most manufacturers are selling vaccines at low prices now, they have every intention of raising prices in the coming months (Pfizer and their CEO have been very candid about this, as have others, with increases expected in September). Like I mentioned, Moderna claimed they’d waive patents back in October, yet here we are in May and there’s still no generic Moderna vaccine...

They could give a shit about these poorer countries, whom they often use as guinea pigs for new pharmaceuticals... As I mentioned above, vaccine (really all pharmaceutical) production is often outsourced to places like India, Malaysia, the Philippines... These countries are already more than capable of producing the vaccine themselves.

What patent waivers do is allow other manufacturers in poorer countries to produce and distribute vaccines royalty free/at cost, but that doesn’t really matter since the world’s vaccine producers are already at capacity. What’s needed is more buyers, more resources, and more facilities. The perils of just-in-time/LEAN production — the same reasons our hospitals were overwhelmed!

It’s a clusterfuck to say the least

Biden agreed to waive vaccine patents. But will that help get doses out faster?

Vaccinating the world will be tough. Here’s what intellectual property waivers can and can’t do.

www.vox.com

 

[Space Lynx]

Most of the EU are saying they are for patent waivers, except Germany, according to the article, but are annoyed that the US changed their position on COVAX, which makes a lot of sense since the US still hasn’t agreed to participate in COVAX and is stockpiling 2x as many doses as we could possibly need. In this way, the US suddenly being pro patent waivers is disingenuous, since patent waivers would still mean that the US hasn’t committed to the global vaccination effort while COVAX partners would foot the bill with whatever alleged benefit patent waivers bring in reducing costs.

Most vaccines aren’t actually produced in the country of origin, or even by the developer, but are actually outsourced to companies in places like India, who is producing the majority of Covid 19 vaccines for the world (ironically, their outbreak is supposedly what changed the US’s mind, and they stopped exporting vaccines two months ago).

If I understand correctly (please correct me if I’m wrong), from there they’re sent to places like the US, where a regulatory body, like the FDA, determines if they’re safe.

If you read further down in the article, those defending patent rights are actually more concerned about patents surrounding things like manufacturing and storage techniques, which are beyond the scope of the patents for the vaccine themselves.

I would not put this much faith in big pharma biontech and Pfizer are beholden to their shareholders, and while most manufacturers are selling vaccines at low prices now, they have every intention of raising prices in the coming months (Pfizer and their CEO have been very candid about this, as have others, with increases expected in September). Like I mentioned, Moderna claimed they’d waive patents back in October, yet here we are in May and there’s still no generic Moderna vaccine...

They could give a shit about these poorer countries, whom they often use as guinea pigs for new pharmaceuticals... As I mentioned above, vaccine (really all pharmaceutical) production is often outsourced to places like India, Malaysia, the Philippines... These countries are already more than capable of producing the vaccine themselves.

What patent waivers do is allow other manufacturers in poorer countries to produce and distribute vaccines royalty free/at cost, but that doesn’t really matter since the world’s vaccine producers are already at capacity. What’s needed is more buyers, more resources, and more facilities. The perils of just-in-time/LEAN production — the same reasons our hospitals were overwhelmed!

It’s a clusterfuck to say the least

Biden agreed to waive vaccine patents. But will that help get doses out faster?

Vaccinating the world will be tough. Here’s what intellectual property waivers can and can’t do.

www.vox.com

mRNA vaccines are only made in mass on United States soil to my knowledge. not India.

 

[claes]

My bad; Pfizer does not produce in India (they do in Europe and China, though), the rest though:

India is the home of the world's biggest producer of Covid vaccines. But it's facing a major internal shortage

India's devastating experience of a second wave of coronavirus cases is ongoing but questions are now focusing on how the country got to this tragic point.

www.cnbc.com

The World's Largest Vaccine Maker Took A Multimillion Dollar Pandemic Gamble

NPR tours the factory of the world's largest vaccine maker: Serum Institute of India. It's manufacturing nearly 100 million doses a month of the Oxford-AstraZeneca formula and exporting them globally.

www.npr.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine#Manufacturing

Serum Institute of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: just so we’re on the same page, I have no hostility to you whatsoever and am certainly not an expert (or even educated) in these matters. We’re all just learning here (well except for the actual doctor). Sorry if my responses felt flippant or argumentative

 

[the54thvoid]

mRNA vaccines are only made in mass on United States soil to my knowledge. not India.

The Pfizer/Biontech is made by both companies and not solely in the US.

Pfizer and BioNTech ramp up COVID-19 vaccine production to 2.5 billion doses

Pfizer and BioNTech expect to expand COVID-19 vaccine manufacturing capacity to up to 2.5 billion doses by the end of 2021, thanks to the optimization of production processes and the recent initiation of production in Marburg, Germany.

www.biopharma-reporter.com