Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[Space Lynx]

HOLY CRAP

Chinese £3,200 budget electric car takes on Tesla

The mini electric vehicle being made by China's biggest carmaker is now outselling Tesla two to one.

www.bbc.com

if I could buy this for 4500 to 5000 dollars I would buy it... I really wish this would come to the states... me want... I can't find the range on it though, needs to be at least 120 miles imo... otherwise the battery charge cycles will occur to frequently, meaning new batteries needed in quick amount of time if we account for standard 1000-2000 cycle rates

 

[oobymach]

Hydrogen is extremely explosive, storing a large quantity of it safely (safe enough to withstand complete vehicle destruction) is the real issue. Imagine if your car exploded violently from a fender bender. Remember the Hindenburg? Gasoline is an extremely safe fuel by comparison, we use hydrogen in bombs because it explodes real good.

 

[Space Lynx]

Hydrogen is extremely explosive, storing a large quantity of it safely (safe enough to withstand complete vehicle destruction) is the real issue. Imagine if your car exploded violently from a fender bender. Remember the Hindenburg? Gasoline is an extremely safe fuel by comparison, we use hydrogen in bombs because it explodes real good.

No Mirai has exploded yet... and they have been on the road for like a decade. The tanks they are use are nearly indestructible even at high speeds, so I'm not sure I buy this argument, Toyota already thought of this.

The main issue in my eyes, is the extraction of hydrogen at an efficient enough level to make the hydrogen car competitive. Seems to be what Elon Musk said as well in the video I linked.

 

[Shrek]

hydrogen powered internal combustion engine

The ICE is very inefficient; a great waste of energy compared to electric cars.

 

[Space Lynx]

The ICE is very inefficient; a great waste of energy compared to electric cars.

That's just for racing cars, but my point with mentioning is that Toyota is still developing hydrogen tech overall. They have not given up on it, which was my only point. the Fuel Cell hydrogen is one for consumers. again, this thread is just me trying to wrap my head around it all, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Operandi]

The hydrogen full cells like what Toyota is using in their cars are "fueling" electric cars, they are not ICE (internal combustion engines) so they are not burning the hydrogen. You can use it that way and Mazda did it with a RX8 I think as concept and it worked but as has been pointed out ICE engines are nowhere near as efficient as electric motors so its hard to see ICE hydrogen would work out. Not sure why Mazda did it, maybe just cause they could... but nobody is looking at burning hydrogen as a fuel.

Storage is an issue but it can be solved. Transportation is an issue but it also can be solved. The real problem is getting the hydrogen. Current methods for producing hydrogen are nearly so energy intensive that it takes almost as much energy in the form of oil, coal or natural gas to produce the hydrogen that you better off just turning the oil, natural gas )or whatever primitive hydrocarbon) into the energy you wanted in the first place (ICE engines) or convert it an easier way in the form of batteries. Hydrogen should win out in the end as renewable energy takes off and as fuel cells get better but its got a long way to go compared to lithium ion infrastructure.

 

[Prima.Vera]

Why not using an industrial scaled Ultrasonic dispenser to separate water into O2 and H2, if the electrolysis is so inefficient. Ultrasonic dispensers have an efficiency of 100% since they literally split the water atoms into H2 and O2...
The next time you are using your 20$ humidifier inside your home think about this....

 

[Ferrum Master]

Well we have few experimental trolleybuses going around on hydrogen since last year, but just as everything many projects are stalled due to CV19. The Hydrogen station is located inside of public transport park.

It is a byproduct of this EU project. The results are not there, but interestingly enough it is not dead.

H2Nodes

H2NODES - Evolution of a European hydrogen refuelling station network by mobilising the local demand and value chains H2Nodes looks into...

www.h2nodes.eu

 

[Jetster]

Hydrogen Fuel is a no go
Molecules such as water and alcohol have to be processed to extract hydrogen to feed into a fuel cell. Some of these processes require the using other energy sources, which then defeat the advantages of this "clean" fuel.

Why We Still Can't Deliver on the Promise of Hydrogen Cars

2020 is a big year for battery EVs, but there are many reasons hydrogen fuel cells will never live up to their promise.

www.thedrive.com

We also abandoned Bioenergy:
Converting forest lands into bioenergy agriculture could accelerate climate change by emitting carbon stored in forests, while converting food agriculture lands into bioenergy agriculture could threaten food security

Oddly enough Nuclear energy is still an option as seen by some experts as sustainable which seams crazy to me

 

[Caring1]

People are working on ways to produce LPG (liquid petroleum gas) which is easy to store.

Cars (and buses) have been running solely on LPG or NG for decades already.

 

[Tardian]

Hydrogen is NOT a fuel. It is a store of energy. It is an extremely inefficient way of storing energy. The only future sensible use of hydrogen involves nuclear fusion. This has yet to be made commercial.

Hydrogen vehicles are exercises in Virtue Signalling. Countries struggling with carbon dioxide levels such as South Korea and Japan want Australia to make them hydrogen.

Hydrogen is not GREEN. It is a scam. Using renewable energy to make hydrogen makes no sense. Using battery, wind, hydo (including pumped water), wave generated power at night makes more sense.

Before insisting that I am wrong I suggest you do some serious Googling.

 

[80251]

After what happened to the Hindenburg I don't think I'd want to be around a hydrogen powered vehicle following a car crash.

 

[Melvis]

Australia isnt we are actually investing heavily into it far as I am aware?

 

[sepheronx]

A couple of our facilities use Hydrogen Fuel celled machinery. The maintenance team complains about the system all the time. Hard to maintain and expensive.

 

[Hemmingstamp]

Honda trialed them in the UK back in 2008-9.
We put our names on the list but never heard back. Then it went all quiet. Haven't heard anything about hydrogen cars since.

 

[flatty]

And because still HUGE interests (red "money") in petrol industry.
We will remember all this (including hydrogen engines) when the fossil reserves will be depleted (not so far, isabout century)

 

[Bones]

A steam engine runs on water...

What heated the plugs?

I'm having to guess electricity - The article said they were ceramic plugs but the article didn't go much into detail aside from how it worked in basic principal.
Of course they woudn't give too much detail anyway nor would anyone actually doing it give such info out.
I'll have to look and see if I can find it again and if I do I'll post up the link to it.

EDIT:
I did find a few articles and got the links.
Maybe this will shed some light on the subject.

Tamil Nadu engineer invents engine that runs on distilled water, to be launched by Japan govt after India ignores - Education Today News

And another controversial reference:
Inventor Of ‘Water-Powered Car’ Died Screaming ‘They Poisoned Me’ - UNILAD

Interesting..... If true at all.

 

[Vayra86]

Hydrogen is extremely explosive, storing a large quantity of it safely (safe enough to withstand complete vehicle destruction) is the real issue. Imagine if your car exploded violently from a fender bender. Remember the Hindenburg? Gasoline is an extremely safe fuel by comparison, we use hydrogen in bombs because it explodes real good.

This is not really a challenge anymore. Both the Nexo and the Mirai prove this. Remember, Toyota... Hybrid pioneers with the Prius, if anything they proved the merit of electric drive in recent times. Its a norm now. Its very likely hydrogen is going to get added to that sooner rather than later.

However, it does add a lot of weight. They're both heavy cars. Heavier than the, also heavier than ICE vehicle, electric cars.

IMHO, I think we're moving to an age where different types of fuel and engine work alongside each other for different purposes. Diversification is key to get the best tool in the optimal use case every time. Need longer range or can't waste time on recharge? Hydrogen car. Regular day-to-day work use case? Electric car. Need to do heavy lifting? Perhaps you still need a Diesel.

 

[moproblems99]

The ICE is very inefficient; a great waste of energy compared to electric cars.

They are inefficient but that doesn't mean we can't figure out how to make them more efficient. We have been stuck where we are on purpose. Yet we still subsidize it.

After what happened to the Hindenburg I don't think I'd want to be around a hydrogen powered vehicle following a car crash.

Don't forget that gasoline vapors are explosive, gasoline is as well, sorta. And your gas tanks are cheap plastic and Ang generally located on the rear extremities of the car.

If I can find the video, you can watch them hitting hydro cars with trains and the tanks come out undamaged.

 

[Vayra86]

They are inefficient but that doesn't mean we can't figure out how to make them more efficient. We have been stuck where we are on purpose. Yet we still subsidize it.

VW and many other companies were very good at making their Diesel engines more efficient, because regulation forced them to.

We know what happened next. Subsidize it? No - we already swung the banhammer and it was a better idea apparently to take billion dollar fines the world over (and massive damage to brands and ICE vehicles in general) than improve something that already exists for decades. Its impossible to defend the idea that there isn't enough incentive to actually improve it. Its a massive target market and it screams for environmentally friendly solutions while 'we keep doing as we do'.

Sometimes, you gotta admit its the end of the line and I think the combustion engine is the perfect example of it. Automotive research went into this already, and not even a little. You can't possibly still believe they'll get better, objectively. Anyone saying that is trying marketing out of the 90's in 2021. Forget it.

Note how the same VW is now turning the whole business 180 degrees within several years. So it was more profitable for them to stop doing what they've always done, than to improve that ICE further. If they could have made a better platform with ICE in it, they would've done so ages ago.

 

[Shrek]

They are inefficient but that doesn't mean we can't figure out how to make them more efficient.

More yes, but there is a strict thermodynamic limit given by

(T_in - T_ex)/T_in​

where the temperature is in Kelvin. Best possible is about 37%, actual is about 20%

Physics, Concepts & Connections, Art Hobson 5th edition

 

[Jetster]

VW and many other companies were very good at making their Diesel engines more efficient, because regulation forced them to.

We know what happened next. Subsidize it? No - we already swung the banhammer and it was a better idea apparently to take billion dollar fines the world over (and massive damage to brands and ICE vehicles in general) than improve something that already exists for decades. Its impossible to defend the idea that there isn't enough incentive to actually improve it. Its a massive target market and it screams for environmentally friendly solutions while 'we keep doing as we do'.

Sometimes, you gotta admit its the end of the line and I think the combustion engine is the perfect example of it. Automotive research went into this already, and not even a little. You can't possibly still believe they'll get better, objectively. Anyone saying that is trying marketing out of the 90's in 2021. Forget it.

Note how the same VW is now turning the whole business 180 degrees within several years. So it was more profitable for them to stop doing what they've always done, than to improve that ICE further. If they could have made a better platform with ICE in it, they would've done so ages ago.

VW also got caught cheating on emissions standards

Volkswagen emissions scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[moproblems99]

VW and many other companies were very good at making their Diesel engines more efficient, because regulation forced them to.

We know what happened next. Subsidize it? No - we already swung the banhammer and it was a better idea apparently to take billion dollar fines the world over (and massive damage to brands and ICE vehicles in general) than improve something that already exists for decades. Its impossible to defend the idea that there isn't enough incentive to actually improve it. Its a massive target market and it screams for environmentally friendly solutions while 'we keep doing as we do'.

Sometimes, you gotta admit its the end of the line and I think the combustion engine is the perfect example of it. Automotive research went into this already, and not even a little. You can't possibly still believe they'll get better, objectively. Anyone saying that is trying marketing out of the 90's in 2021. Forget it.

Note how the same VW is now turning the whole business 180 degrees within several years. So it was more profitable for them to stop doing what they've always done, than to improve that ICE further. If they could have made a better platform with ICE in it, they would've done so ages ago.

Lying and making them good are two different things.

 

[Shrek]

VW and many other companies were very good at making their Diesel engines more efficient, because regulation forced them to.

More efficient and cleaner are two different things; I thought the regulations were after the later.

My Honda VTEC-E gets 45 mpg and would get even more if it didn't have to run a catalytic converter.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Well firstly looking at EU emission reduction plan, there are no other ways. Diesel will be killed off in these 10-20 years near any city with taxes accelerating on polluting tech with each year so on. And Hydrogen exactly is targeted to replace that niche. Where range matters, and lithium tech cannot provide it normally, thus an alternative is in the pipes.

Basically private vehicles will go lithium. Long range transport should go hydrogen. There are currently Hydrogen filling problems, but still is way faster than charge fully a car. Not mentioning how many cycles it can really endure. And then faster you charge and force the battery the less cycles you have. Ok, with iron phosphate it is way better, but Lithium ion/polymer... it is like scam. The battery life is way too short.

Hydrogen won't disappear as idea for sure. The private sector is place where it will arrive last as some people are monkeys and you can't give them anything sharper than a spoon in order not to injure themselves.