If top blowing coolers are so good, why they are so uncommon?

[mtcn77]

PS: I might need to reinstate the opposite to positive pressure convection is not negative, it is inertial centrifugal displacement.

 

[Space Lynx]

Words of caution: HWUB tests boards in open air at about 24C. Not realistic scenario at all.

I kept an eye on it with HWINFO, vrm temps never broke 50 celsius, even when i had manual OC on 5600x. and a small arctic freezer e34 duo air cooler on it.

/shrug

 

[freeagent]

With industrials you move enough air to scrub those fins of heat. Scrubs everything.. that is why I am a big fan of thick fans. High speed thin (26mm) are ok too, still loud af, but they get quiet and have less motor noise at low revs than the phat ones. At least my old phat ones

 

[Operandi]

I just now realized that Noctua didn't really make that passive cooler, they just copied Scythe and their Orochi cooler:

Reputation lost, Noctua is still a wanker company.

Idk what that is or what your problem with Noctua is but that is nothing like the NH-P1.

Fin gauge and density is totally different as is the heatpipe configuration, completely different designs.

 

[Blue4130]

PS: I might need to reinstate the opposite to positive pressure convection is not negative, it is inertial centrifugal displacement.

Coolers are not sealed units. There is no bernoulli effect happening. Using big words doesn't make it true.

 

[Jetster]

You mean like this? Cools just fine

Not popular because they are pricey

 

[freeagent]

Idk what that is or what your problem with Noctua is but that is nothing like the NH-P1.

That Noctua is not ground breaking though. My old Thermalright Le Grand Macho RT can do 90w passively. That works out to a 3770K at a static 4500MHz 1.25v and 80c load temps with Linpack Xtreme with no fan on the cooler. It could barely handle my old 3600XT at 4400MHz all core with the same settings in Linpack, 4300 would have been better but I am a snob.

 

[The red spirit]

Idk what that is or what your problem with Noctua is but that is nothing like the NH-P1.

Fin gauge and density is totally different as is the heatpipe configuration, completely different designs.
View attachment 214236View attachment 214237

My problem with Noctua is that they barely innovate anything ever, only improve others' designs and sells it at massive premium. On top of that they have tons of fanboys that believe almost anything. The only fan that is truly somewhat different is NF-A12. Who made it? Nidec. Yep it was joint venture between Nidec and Scythe, they developed what they thought was the best fan and sold it nearly decade earlier. Noctua just found a way how to make it slightly quieter and how to make it push more air at less noise. That was mostly achieved by just making whole fan more expensive, rather than changing anything meaningfully. Their other fans aren't anything special and perform same or worse than generic 7/9 blader. In heatsink space big innovators and actual engineers are Thermalright, Scythe, Prolimatech and few others. Again Noctua excels by doing nearly nothing, just making heatsinks somewhat bigger than competitors. And of course, for some reason their hunk of metal costs twice than their competitors. Literally Noctua's cost per kg for same hunk of metal is nearly twice that of competitors, yet it mostly performs the same or maybe slightly better (because others thought that some sizes are unfeasible and thus didn't want to lose money). My reasons for disliking Noctua are personal, I know that. They are really a luxury computer cooling company rather than truly an experts in their field. I just really can't like companies like that.

And I don't know how you don't see any similarities. Scythe Orochi looks almost the same. Sure it come with single fan, but it was also advertised as capable passive cooler. Noctua doesn't give you a fan (they gotta make some cash somehow), but state that you can add one. Okay. Basically everything else about them is too damn similar. Yes they spaced fins differently, but other than that everything else is the same. And Scythe made more than Orochi, they also made an Iori, another very similar cooler to Orochi, but more compact and probably not as good as passive cooler.

 

[freeagent]

My problem with Noctua is that they barely innovate anything ever, only improve others' designs and sells it at massive premium.

The first time I saw a Noctua cooler reviewed their technique looked nearly identical to what Thermalright was putting out. I honestly thought they would never last lol. That's why I rag on Noctua so much. They didn't innovate anything except a mount and some fans. But even then one of their fans look very similar to a Thermalright TY series.. just an observation.

 

[The red spirit]

That Noctua is not ground breaking though. My old Thermalright Le Grand Macho RT can do 90w passively. That works out to a 3770K at a static 4500MHz 1.25v and 80c load temps with Linpack Xtreme with no fan on the cooler. It could barely handle my old 3600XT at 4400MHz all core with the same settings in Linpack, 4300 would have been better but I am a snob.

Basically any big tower cooler is also good as passive cooler. I had Mugen 4 PCGH on FX 6300 and without fans and only one case fan (intake maybe) it managed to keep CPU from overheating. I don't know exactly how many watts FX 6300 consumes in prime95 small FFTs, but it's likely 120-160 watts. FX 6300 was at stock voltage with CPU temperature not exceeding 58C. It was in rather restrictive Cooler Master K280 case, which didn't have any top ventilation at all. So, that's not bad. However Mugen 4 PCGH was 55 Euros, meanwhile Noctua P1 is now 94 Euros.

 

[tabascosauz]

My problem with Noctua is that they barely innovate anything ever, only improve others' designs and sells it at massive premium. On top of that they have tons of fanboys that believe almost anything. The only fan that is truly somewhat different is NF-A12. Who made it? Nidec. Yep it was joint venture between Nidec and Scythe, they developed what they thought was the best fan and sold it nearly decade earlier. Noctua just found a way how to make it slightly quieter and how to make it push more air at less noise. That was mostly achieved by just making whole fan more expensive, rather than changing anything meaningfully. Their other fans aren't anything special and perform same or worse than generic 7/9 blader. In heatsink space big innovators and actual engineers are Thermalright, Scythe, Prolimatech and few others. Again Noctua excels by doing nearly nothing, just making heatsinks somewhat bigger than competitors. And of course, for some reason their hunk of metal costs twice than their competitors. Literally Noctua's cost per kg for same hunk of metal is nearly twice that of competitors, yet it mostly performs the same or maybe slightly better (because others thought that some sizes are unfeasible and thus didn't want to lose money). My reasons for disliking Noctua are personal, I know that. They are really a luxury computer cooling company rather than truly an experts in their field. I just really can't like companies like that.

And I don't know how you don't see any similarities. Scythe Orochi looks almost the same. Sure it come with single fan, but it was also advertised as capable passive cooler. Noctua doesn't give you a fan (they gotta make some cash somehow), but state that you can add one. Okay. Basically everything else about them is too damn similar. Yes they spaced fins differently, but other than that everything else is the same. And Scythe made more than Orochi, they also made an Iori, another very similar cooler to Orochi, but more compact and probably not as good as passive cooler.

If you want to rant about who did what first there will never be an end to this pointless conversation. Those who were around remember how Thermaltake blatantly ripped off Caselabs S3/S5/S8 with their dogshit Core series of cases - guess who's still around selling their cases and being financial successful (and still extant)?

Noctua doesn't usually advertise their products as "best", "first", etc. It is what it is, take it or leave it. No one's forcing them down your throat. Honestly, the way most products are marketed now as erroneously being "first to market", it's the fairest marketing we'll get.

And most Scythe heatsinks are great and innovative......except that they have dogshit fans that have no rpm range, switching to a respectable fan produces instant improvements to heatsink performance. Yeah, they used to sell Gentle Typhoons. Do they actually put meaningfully useful GT-esque fans on their heatsinks? No, so I'll still swap a GT, A12x25, or Toughfan onto a Fuma 2.

Some Noctua coolers are more meaningful to me than others. I can find half a dozen 120mm/140mm dual towers that take the fight to the D15 (and honestly I'd consider a FC140 or TC14PE over the D15) or half a dozen 92mm/120mm downdraft coolers that outperform the L9x65, but I dare you to find me a 92mm tower that outperforms the U9S. Gonna tell me that the U9S was copied from someone else too?

When you smear an entire company for one of their products, you instantly lose credibility as someone who evaluates products for their individual merit. I'd hesitate to buy Thermaltake due to what they did to Caselabs and the fact that none of their cases seem to up the build quality bar, but I'd be happy to buy their GT-clone Toughfan over the A12x25 if it was the right price.

 

[The red spirit]

The first time I saw a Noctua cooler reviewed their technique looked nearly identical to what Thermalright was putting out. I honestly thought they would never last lol. That's why I rag on Noctua so much. They didn't innovate anything except a mount and some fans. But even then one of their fans look very similar to a Thermalright TY series.. just an observation.

Their fans (A12) are based on Nidec/Scythe Gentle Typhoons (probably the most famous enthusiast level fans to date). Those Thermaltake fans are also based on them. They only change appearances enough so they can't be sued, but essentially it's the same fan.

Noctua doesn't usually advertise their products as "best", "first", etc. It is what it is, take it or leave it. No one's forcing them down your throat.

Maybe, but I dislike them nonetheless. The problem is that their innovation is non-existant and they are rebranding generic or old designs. Thermaltake might have ripped off many others, but they also sometimes make original stuff. I remember their Riing fans. Nothing crazy, but they brought RGB (or LED) rings to market. Noctua unfortunately cannot do anything like that yet.

And most Scythe heatsinks are great and innovative......except that they have dogshit fans that have no rpm range, switching to a respectable fan produces instant improvements to heatsink performance.

That's not true and you know it. Their fans are solid and sometimes best at tests. RPMs are set low, but within that range they perform really well. And since they advertise their stuff geared for quietness, you can't expect server fans on them. For some reason Ultra Kazes don't exist anymore, I guess people found out that hey can use ears for something better than listening to screaming fan.

Yeah, they used to sell Gentle Typhoons. Do they actually put meaningfully useful GT-esque fans on their heatsinks? No, so I'll still swap a GT, A12x25, or Toughfan onto a Fuma 2.

Why didn't you just buy Noctua then, they love their screamers.

Some Noctua coolers are more meaningful to me than others. I can find half a dozen 120mm/140mm dual towers that take the fight to the D15, or half a dozen 92mm/120mm downdraft coolers that outperform the L9x65, but I dare you to find me a 92mm tower that outperforms the U9S. Gonna tell me that the U9S was copied from someone else too?

Tower fans are already all the same, so that's basically how this market works, but Noctua charges way too much for U9S. And you want U9S being beaten? Not so hard. Here's the list of coolers that outperform Noctua:
Thermalright Macho 90
Alpenfohn Sella (wtf, I have this cooler, it has much less beefy setup, but it literally beats Noctua, oh well)

Source:

Noctua NH-U9S CPU Cooler Review

Chad says that "bigger is not always better", and that proves to be the case with Noctua's NH-U9S CPU air cooler. Let's take a close look.

www.tweaktown.com

I can tell you, that Alpenfohn cooler certainly isn't special, but it seems to perform really well and more importantly it's more compact and it costs more than 3 times less. That's the price today and I remember I paid 2 Euros less for it, so it varies a bit. There's also no magic there either, those two coolers top out at nearly the same RPMs. Still 3 times cheaper and performs the same. Sure buy Noctua.

When you smear an entire company for one of their products, you instantly lose credibility as someone who evaluates products for their individual merit. I'd hesitate to buy Thermaltake due to what they did to Caselabs, but I'd be happy to buy their GT-clone Toughfan over the A12x25 if it was the right price.

Let a man just mindlessly dislike one company.

 

[lexluthermiester]

why they are still so uncommon?

There are a lot of reason. As has been said, physical space around the socket is one reason, but another is difficulty of manufacturing. It's greatly easier to make a tower style cooler than a cooler the bends over above the socket area. This requires a lot more effort in the design phase, more tooling and processing then normal "stamp & clamp" types. This makes them more expensive to build and the profit margin lower. From a business perspective it's not as appealing.

That and cooling VRM's isn as much of an issue as it used to be since VRM designs have become more efficient.

That's not true. While VRMs have improved, cooling them is still very important, especially in an OC situation.

 

[freeagent]

Basically any big tower cooler is also good as passive cooler

This is mostly true. But LGMRT was meant to be used without a fan.

 

[eidairaman1]

lol Scythe Godhand? That thing is quite extreme I must say:

I'm not even sure if they released it, I only see photos of demonstration. And they certainly made Scythe Susanoo:

Now that's some legit "holy shit" stuff. It has 4 100mm fans. Why make it fit into case, when you can make it so big that cooler itself becomes your new side panel. Those people at Scythe are insane and I love them.

Yeah the Susanoo.

Its why I have an Ashura Cooler, it handles this "hot" 8350 at 5.0GHz. 55 Under Gaming is reasonable for such old tech. On top i can get sm AM4 bracket to drop this on a Ryzen 9 5950 lol.

There are a lot of reason. As has been said, physical space around the socket is one reason, but another is difficulty of manufacturing. It's greatly easier to make a tower style cooler than a cooler the bends over above the socket area. This requires a lot more effort in the design phase, more tooling and processing then normal "stamp & clamp" types. This makes them more expensive to build and the profit margin lower. From a business perspective it's not as appealing.


That's not true. While VRMs have improved, cooling them is still very important, especially in an OC situation.

There are still tons of "dumb" vrms around.

 

[mama]

There's nothing wrong with irrational preferences or dislikes as long as they're not trotted out as valid critiques. There are plenty of empirically tested product stack reviews out there and that's what's useful to a builder.

 

[mtcn77]

Coolers are not sealed units. There is no bernoulli effect happening. Using big words doesn't make it true.

Just because you don't understand the fin array aerodynamics does not make it untrue.

 

[Blue4130]

So if you understand it so well, explain it to me. Lay out valid examples or peer reviewed papers rather than your rhetoric.

Just because you don't understand the fin array aerodynamics does not make it untrue.

 

[Dragokar]

ah, a thread that made me remember how my Scythe Grand Kama Cross (Rev.B) came to be my favorite "top down" (and HSF) ... aaahhhhh if only i did not sell it ...
View attachment 214218

well i love my tower ETS-T50 nonetheless ... but man ... i want to find a Grand Kama Cross again now ... to add it to my HSF collection

Well, if you like, you can have mine when it gets replaced in 3-4 weeks. I had it since my FX-times, and it is still in use on a FX-8320 test rig.

 

[mtcn77]

So if you understand it so well, explain it to me. Lay out valid examples or peer reviewed papers rather than your rhetoric.

That is actually a very easy problem.

Sandia Cooler

Applications include laptops and other electronic devices, automotive, appliances, and any device comprising one or more forced-air exchangers.

www.techbriefs.com

The Sandia Cooler architecture developed in this work simultaneously eliminates all three of the drawbacks of conventional air-cooled heat exchanger technology: it provides a several-fold reduction in boundary layer thickness, intrinsic immunity to heat sink fouling, and drastic reductions in noise. It is also expected to be very practical from the standpoint of cost, complexity, ...

 

[Blue4130]

That is actually a very easy problem.

Sandia Cooler

Applications include laptops and other electronic devices, automotive, appliances, and any device comprising one or more forced-air exchangers.

www.techbriefs.com

That article had nothing at all to do with your previous posts.

 

[mtcn77]

That article had nothing at all to do with your previous posts.

Yeah, you keep coming back at not connecting the dots. I said rotational inertia fixes it and corrected myself for mentioning it as negative pressure. I think this time I used the right terminology, so take a break...

 

[joemama]

That is actually a very easy problem.

Sandia Cooler

Applications include laptops and other electronic devices, automotive, appliances, and any device comprising one or more forced-air exchangers.

www.techbriefs.com

Interesting invention, I would assume maintaining that air gap should be the most difficult part. A little thicker and the heat transfer rate is largely decreased.

 

[mtcn77]

Interesting invention, I would assume maintaining that air gap should be the most difficult part. A little thicker and the heat transfer rate is largely decreased.

Well, yes. Still I find it a by product of the rotational fins which are the major invention, imo. Air bearing just facilitates it, being very expensive in the mean time.

 

[lexluthermiester]

So if you understand it so well, explain it to me. Lay out valid examples or peer reviewed papers rather than your rhetoric.

We don't need to. You are arguing against common knowledge and common sense, so the burden of proof is on you.