Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[R-T-B]

Again, this ignores the infrastructure & distribution issues

No it doesn't, but you need to cross the "how do I get it" bridge before you can even consider distribution. I just started at the fojndations and found them flawed before even approaching distribution. I wasn't ignoring it, it just isn't relevant until we solve step 1, so to speak.

 

[Shrek]

Why aren’t hydrogen trains carrying passengers yet?
(256) Why aren’t hydrogen trains carrying passengers yet? - Quora
"Hydrogen is a terrible choice of energy for trains…just as it is for cars, trucks and most other forms of transportation."

 

[Space Lynx]

Why aren’t hydrogen trains carrying passengers yet?
(256) Why aren’t hydrogen trains carrying passengers yet? - Quora
"Hydrogen is a terrible choice of energy for trains…just as it is for cars, trucks and most other forms of transportation."

I recommend you check out my hyperloop thread, I personally agree that hydrogen is probably not the best choice. Or maybe the world will look very different, similar to how wind and solar are targeted to certain areas only, oil will exist for other areas, nuclear for others, the all or nothing approach as I initially started out with I think is the wrong way to look at it. Best to target certain areas and geographical areas strategically, and accept all options including oil for some areas still.

But hyperloop... is still my all or nothing dream, that I do see as being possibly, but it would require a Great New Deal and no scam contractors on top of that, so yeah, it will never happen. We aren't the same country we were at when the highway system was built, to much has changed for that ever to be done properly and within budget. Greed and envy destroyed us sadly. But if I were to dream, it would be a hyperloop future and humans need to learn to walk more when hyperloop drops them off. /shrug

Seems to me, that Hyperloop is not only the future, it will benefit all of us and save us a lot of time.

Watch this video in full before commenting please. Keep in mind, even in the pandemic like now, hyperloop would still be better than all other modes of public transport (the pods are more sanitary since only small number of people for each one, versus air being exchanged on an entire train...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Ferrum Master]

The only terrible thing here is the answerers assumption everything can be changed to something, let's hang wires everywhere across the railroad. Also the answerer isn't aware of PEM hydrogen electrolyser based plant in Germany made by Shell one large fab is soon launched in UK by ITM Power. That's not made from natural gas, or some horrid environmental jokes like blue hydrogen plants US and Canucks have. So why then those fabs are made? Because it is nonsense right?

EU will not use fossil fuel, and that's it. Especially now politically it has been proven to get rid of reliance for oil and gas and go 100% green. It is a political choice, and the force will gain even more traction, it will loose the main appeal in poor economic viability, but as remaining as the only sane choice. There are some men and women that needs to change seats at the helm.

For those inaccessible places hydrogen will be used and the plan is set in motion despite some expert claims. Factories are build and trains also do their testing. As any early tech it has a lot of problems, but by the looks there is no turning back. Hydrogen is ideal to deal with excess energy especially in remote places with solar wind or Hydro plants where you have to shut down them as the grid doesn't consume that much. In that place you can transfer the energy to hydrogen, by directing current to the nearest plant.

 

[Aquinus]

For those inaccessible places hydrogen will be used and the plan is set in motion despite some expert claims. Factories are build and trains also do their testing. As any early tech it has a lot of problems, but by the looks there is no turning back. Hydrogen is ideal to deal with excess energy especially in remote places with solar wind or Hydro plants where you have to shut down them as the grid doesn't consume that much. In that place you can transfer the energy to hydrogen, by directing current to the nearest plant.

Honestly, the best and most efficient way to get hydrogen would be as a byproduct from a nuclear reactor. Electrolysis is actually a lot more efficient under high pressure and temperatures, so you could use waste heat and energy from a nuke plant to capture hydrogen.

Hydrogen is ideal to deal with excess energy especially in remote places with solar wind or Hydro plants where you have to shut down them as the grid doesn't consume that much. In that place you can transfer the energy to hydrogen, by directing current to the nearest plant.

Except as a storage medium, it's terribly inefficient, even under the best of circumstances. You're better off going with either batteries or using gravitational potential energy by pumping water to a higher elevation and running it back through a turbine when you need it.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Except as a storage medium, it's terribly inefficient, even under the best of circumstances. You're better off going with either batteries or using gravitational potential energy by pumping water to a higher elevation and running it back through a turbine when you need it.

Pumped hydro is definitely cheaper, but we are running out of good water sources. Most of the west-coast's dams are used for water management / drought management, meaning you release the water NOT for power purposes, but instead so that the various states get their agreed upon amounts of water.

That means the dam will generate electricity (as the water is released), even when you have no effective storage mechanism. Now what? Li-ion is too small. Hydrogen on the other hand may only be 50% efficient, but its better to store something rather than waste all that energy.

 

[Space Lynx]

EU will not use fossil fuel, and that's it. Especially now politically it has been proven to get rid of reliance for oil and gas and go 100% green. It is a political choice, and the force will gain even more traction, it will loose the main appeal in poor economic viability, but as remaining as the only sane choice. There are some men and women that needs to change seats at the helm.

I don't know how I feel about this comment, Germany leads EU in everything, and they went back to burning coal and closing down their nuclear power plants what 4 years ago? Still burning coal like crazy last I knew... so eh... kneejerk reaction that nuclear is bad due to fukushima disaster is a classic case of not understanding basic context imo.. Germany doesn't have to worry about a typhoon and a earthquake at the same time like Japan did... and if they can't even understand basic context like that... eh, I am not hopeful.

Pumped hydro is definitely cheaper, but we are running out of good water sources. Most of the west-coast's dams are used for water management / drought management, meaning you release the water NOT for power purposes, but instead so that the various states get their agreed upon amounts of water.

That means the dam will generate electricity (as the water is released), even when you have no effective storage mechanism. Now what? Li-ion is too small. Hydrogen on the other hand may only be 50% efficient, but its better to store something rather than waste all that energy.

and to my knowledge, hydro damns have ruined many ecosystems, I was reading about that recently... so the green states out west using hydro really aren't so green in the bigger long term context

 

[Shrek]

I've wondered about the vast methane resources, much locked in the seabed, and converting that to synthetic liquid fuel.

 

[Aquinus]

Pumped hydro is definitely cheaper, but we are running out of good water sources. Most of the west-coast's dams are used for water management / drought management, meaning you release the water NOT for power purposes, but instead so that the various states get their agreed upon amounts of water.

If you can't use water for pumped storage, then how do you expect to use it for splitting water? Seems like an issue they both have when water availability is low. That doesn't make hydrogen a better solution. At least it's still water after you pump it to a higher elevation and can still be used.

 

[Ferrum Master]

I've wondered about the vast methane resources, much locked in the seabed, and converting that to synthetic liquid fuel.

Are you sure what ecological footprint does fracking do?

As I said... no fossils in EU. Diesel being the first one to die, it has been inked in documents and development and it will be so. You will have the ability to use, just the taxes will be unbearable.

I don't know how I feel about this comment, Germany leads EU in everything.

France would like to have a chat about it. Especially in the nuclear department.

The EU politics are not simple, it has never been. I am really not fond of Angela Merkel and what she and her party has done to Germany not even mentioning the last joke moves she did with Lukashenko. Last struggles with nordstream2 project, kinda revealing true colors, the level of corruption and idiocy, that's why I said, some chairs need to be vacated at the helm. You think the nuclear concerns are only because of possible ecological risk? Or to make someone rely even more on Russians and Arab oil and gas? It is not white and black as usual. This thread about hydrogen is tightly knitted with developments in politics, as the money for developing a real competitor for fossils may be increased or decreased basing on the interested party.

Hydrogen will become as political tool if it manages to survive the current beta/alpha testing. So far it looks good.

As for hydro plants, there is no harm in upgrading the existing ones and use them and do the job when the grid rests, like nights, the river doesn't stop flowing during that daytime and you have spare energy and it can be routed into producing hydrogen as a form of energy storage. Now a method is used to pump water into some higher reservoir in case of demand they open it to increase power, but that's expensive and again takes up space and alters the local environment for sure.

 

[Space Lynx]

Are you sure what ecological footprint does fracking do?

As I said... no fossils in EU. Diesel being the first one to die, it has been inked in documents and development and it will be so. You will have the ability to use, just the taxes will be unbearable.



France would like to have a chat about it. Especially in the nuclear department.

The EU politics are not simple, it has never been. I am really not fond of Angela Merkel and what she and her party has done to Germany not even mentioning the last joke moves she did with Lukashenko. Last struggles with nordstream2 project, kinda revealing true colors, the level of corruption and idiocy, that's why I said, some chairs need to be vacated at the helm. You think the nuclear concerns are only because of possible ecological risk? Or to make someone rely even more on Russians and Arab oil and gas? It is not white and black as usual. This thread about hydrogen is tightly knitted with developments in politics, as the money for developing a real competitor for fossils may be increased or decreased basing on the interested party.

Hydrogen will become as political tool if it manages to survive the current beta/alpha testing. So far it looks good.

As for hydro plants, there is no harm in upgrading the existing ones and use them and do the job when the grid rests, like nights, the river doesn't stop flowing during that daytime and you have spare energy and it can be routed into producing hydrogen as a form of energy storage. Now a method is used to pump water into some higher reservoir in case of demand they open it to increase power, but that's expensive and again takes up space and alters the local environment for sure.

well said. and yes I commend France on their nuclear power green energy, but also, France has not had a net profit government in 45 years, printing endless money is not sustainable, as the world is finding out right now with skyrocketing inflation. keynesian economics implemented in the wrong way is the downfall of our current normal existence.

 

[Aquinus]

well said. and yes I commend France on their nuclear power green energy, but also, France has not had a net profit government in 45 years, printing endless money is not sustainable, as the world is finding out right now with skyrocketing inflation. keynesian economics implemented in the wrong way is the downfall of our current normal existence.

I'm actually envious of France's dedication to nuclear energy. I honestly think that it's the way forward, particularly when talking about modern reactors and not ones from half a century ago. As I said earlier, the really nice part about nuclear is that you can use the waste heat and energy during low usage hours to drive a lot of things, which could include hydrogen production. My biggest gripe with it is actually with US laws regarding non-proliferation which prevents us from reprocessing spent nuclear fuel because the process could result in weapons-grade material.

 

[dragontamer5788]

If you can't use water for pumped storage, then how do you expect to use it for splitting water? Seems like an issue they both have when water availability is low. That doesn't make hydrogen a better solution.

Do you know how the water rights agreements are set by law?

The Colorado River in particular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact

Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Arizona, and California are all guaranteed a certain amount of water by law. Except you know, the law was written poorly and there's not enough water. Either way, the dams in the area must follow the current agreement, until Congress changes it.

To steal the chart from Wikipedia:

Upper Basin, 7.5 million acre·ft/year (293 m³/s) total
Colorado	51.75%*​	3.86 million acre·ft/year (150.7 m³/s)
Utah	23.00%*​	1.71 million acre·ft/year (67.0 m³/s)
Wyoming	14.00%*​	1.04 million acre·ft/year (40.8 m³/s)
New Mexico	11.25%*​	0.84 million acre·ft/year (32.8 m³/s)
Arizona	0.70%​	0.05 million acre·ft/year (2.0 m³/s)
*Percentages with a star are a percentage of the total after Arizona's 0.05 million are deducted. Arizona's percentage is of the total.
Lower Basin, 7.5 million acre·ft/year (293 m³/s) total
California	58.70%​	4.40 million acre·ft/year (172 m³/s)
Arizona	37.30%​	2.80 million acre·ft/year (109 m³/s)
Nevada	4.00%​	0.30 million acre·ft/year (12 m³/s)

These are the requirements.

At least it's still water after you pump it to a higher elevation and can still be used.

You can't pump the water from lower-to-upper, because California / Arizona / Nevada are drinking the water. What, are you just gonna let the people down-river die of thirst?

Furthermore, the contract doesn't match reality, the Colorado river literally doesn't have enough water to match these allotments.

----------

Pumped Hydro works when pumping water from lower-to-upper is allowable and legal. If you have water-contracts (because cities downstream need the water to live), things get a lot more hairy. As such, the rivers in the area can be used for power-generation (because releasing the water follows the contract), but NOT for pumped-hydro (because pumping the water back upstream breaks the Colorado River Compact).

Blame poor laws and poor water management. This river is 100% allocated.

 

[Aquinus]

Do you know how the water rights agreements are set by law?

The Colorado River in particular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact

Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Arizona, and California are all guaranteed a certain amount of water by law. Except you know, the law was written poorly and there's not enough water. Either way, the dams in the area must follow the current agreement, until Congress changes it.

To steal the chart from Wikipedia:

Upper Basin, 7.5 million acre·ft/year (293 m³/s) total
Colorado	51.75%*​	3.86 million acre·ft/year (150.7 m³/s)
Utah	23.00%*​	1.71 million acre·ft/year (67.0 m³/s)
Wyoming	14.00%*​	1.04 million acre·ft/year (40.8 m³/s)
New Mexico	11.25%*​	0.84 million acre·ft/year (32.8 m³/s)
Arizona	0.70%​	0.05 million acre·ft/year (2.0 m³/s)
*Percentages with a star are a percentage of the total after Arizona's 0.05 million are deducted. Arizona's percentage is of the total.
Lower Basin, 7.5 million acre·ft/year (293 m³/s) total
California	58.70%​	4.40 million acre·ft/year (172 m³/s)
Arizona	37.30%​	2.80 million acre·ft/year (109 m³/s)
Nevada	4.00%​	0.30 million acre·ft/year (12 m³/s)

These are the requirements.



You can't pump the water from lower-to-upper, because California / Arizona / Nevada are drinking the water. What, are you just gonna let the people down-river die of thirst?

Furthermore, the contract doesn't match reality, the Colorado river literally doesn't have enough water to match these allotments.

----------

Pumped Hydro works when pumping water from lower-to-upper is allowable and legal. If you have water-contracts (because cities downstream need the water to live), things get a lot more hairy. As such, the rivers in the area can be used for power-generation (because releasing the water follows the contract), but NOT for pumped-hydro (because pumping the water back upstream breaks the Colorado River Compact).

Blame poor laws and poor water management. This river is 100% allocated.

None of that solves how you're going to get hydrogen if water availability is low. Both options aren't feasible when water isn't available.

The solution to that is not live in the desert and I tell this to a friend of mine that lives in Phoenix on a regular basis.

 

[Ferrum Master]

The solution to that is not live in the desert and I tell this to a friend of mine that lives in Phoenix on a regular basis.

Also worth noting Intel built a fab42 and IMHO TSMC is next in the queue. Yeah, I agree they have earthquakes less there, but there are even more safe states in that department like Texas and north central states besides Canada. IMHO, but that's only one type of catastrophes less.

 

[dragontamer5788]

None of that solves how you're going to get hydrogen if water availability is low. Both options aren't feasible when water isn't available.

Electrolysis of hydrogen works on salt water.

Pumped hydro doesn't. Even if you could put a dam in some area near the ocean, pumping the ocean salt water into the fresh water area isn't very good for either environment.

Ocean / salt water is all at sea level, so no elevation drop for any dam. So no place to safely pump seawater into.

 

[Space Lynx]

Also worth noting Intel built a fab42 and IMHO TSMC is next in the queue. Yeah, I agree they have earthquakes less there, but there are even more safe states in that department like Texas and north central states besides Canada. IMHO, but that's only one type of catastrophes less.

Yeah, Intel and TSMC building fabs in a drought ridden place has always flabbergasted me, when there are plenty of tax haven states surrounding the 5 Great Lakes. hehehe

 

[Ferrum Master]

Yeah, Intel and TSMC building fabs in a drought ridden place has always flabbergasted me, when there are plenty of tax haven states surrounding the 5 Great Lakes. hehehe

Agh I forgot, Texas was one of the Tax greedy states, remember reading some of the NBA stuff regarding KP6 and Mavs.

Maybe US are afraid of Canuck invasion

Or in reality... is it corruption again, or mere lobbyism?

Peps in Arizona will have to think twice whether to flush their toilet as it could be the last time in a while or turn out very expensive. I guess men are in advantage here too, plenty of cactuses around.

 

[Aquinus]

Electrolysis of hydrogen works on salt water.

Pumped hydro doesn't. Even if you could put a dam in some area near the ocean, pumping the ocean salt water into the fresh water area isn't very good for either environment.

Ocean / salt water is all at sea level, so no elevation drop for any dam. So no place to safely pump seawater into.

Seawater electrolysis results in hydrogen and chlorine gas, not hydrogen and oxygen. So that's not as safe as you might think it is. You can do it, but I hope you have a plan for all of that chlorine.

 

[Space Lynx]

I hope you have a plan for all of that chlorine.

Swimming pool manufacturers? cheaper costs for maintaining the worlds swimming pools thanks to influx of supply? lol jk I have no idea. I'm just here for the ride at this point ~

 

[Ferrum Master]

Seawater electrolysis results in hydrogen and chlorine gas, not hydrogen and oxygen. So that's not as safe as you might think it is. You can do it, but I hope you have a plan for all of that chlorine.

There are cryo-desalination ideas, that are in even more raw state than hydrogen production.

Lately there is a new idea... oh the irony is strong in this one tho...

To use the cold energy from LNG warming to gaseous state as byproduct and freeze seawater to get freshwater for almost free...

 

[Mussels]

There was a guy in Japan years ago that created an engine that literally ran off of water.
Part of the process involved ceramic "Plugs" that were heated to a very high temp and when the water was injected, it contacted the plugs, exploded/burned like gas and the engine ran.

It's a similar effect when you have molten metal and it comes in contact with water - If you are ever in a foundry and water comes in contact with the metal it will cause an explosion, if enough of both comes together you'd better RUN and hope you're fast enough.

Sounds like sodium or a bunch of other reactive metals

You could make a vague prototype cylindrical engine, but uneven wearing would make finer applications useless

 

[Shrek]

From an earlier post, hydrogen cars are less efficient than electric; end of story.

 

[Ferrum Master]

From an earlier post; hydrogen cars are less efficient than electric; end of story.

The only thing that flopped, that there is development of hydrogen engines that are not fuel cell based that the Pope rides, but a direct internal combustion one. Funny enough Toyota released this showcase few weeks after your shown video was released. After it participated in 24h race.

 

[zebuddi]

The Cabal is why!!! Check the video out