Why is battery technology so behind the times?

[Mescalamba]

This I can get onboard with. NiMH batteries, while only holding 80% the energy density, are safer by far!

They also I think still have perk of being able to output burst power, while remaining non-exploded. Reason why traditional flash for mirorless or DSLR still use older type rechargeable batteries.

Reason why EVs are still no go is same as hundred years ago. Too heavy, not enough capacity, slow to recharge.

They can push it as much as they want, but unless someone makes a lot better battery (major breakthrough required), or real fuel cell, its just destined to fail.

Not mentioning, that if in theory everyone moved to EV, we would need about 6x times more electricity than we have now. And while I would definitely appreciate development in nuclear energy, this will take decades at minimum. And serious upgrades to power grids.

And it makes for one gigantic problem. When everything runs on electricity, blackout becomes apocalypse. Even big solar storm could plunge such society back to medieval ages, if not stone one..

 

[Deleted member 24505]

They also I think still have perk of being able to output burst power, while remaining non-exploded. Reason why traditional flash for mirorless or DSLR still use older type rechargeable batteries.

Reason why EVs are still no go is same as hundred years ago. Too heavy, not enough capacity, slow to recharge.

They can push it as much as they want, but unless someone makes a lot better battery (major breakthrough required), or real fuel cell, its just destined to fail.

Not mentioning, that if in theory everyone moved to EV, we would need about 6x times more electricity than we have now. And while I would definitely appreciate development in nuclear energy, this will take decades at minimum. And serious upgrades to power grids.

And it makes for one gigantic problem. When everything runs on electricity, blackout becomes apocalypse. Even big solar storm could plunge such society back to medieval ages, if not stone one..

Yeah i think so EV's the battery are a high percentage of the weight and the cost. So cost per watt must be horrendous, same as watt per kilo?

 

[bug]

Yeah i think so EV's the battery are a high percentage of the weight and the cost. So cost per watt must be horrendous, same as watt per kilo?

Unsafe as Li may be, few things can beat it it the weight department.
Like I said, the problem is hard and the roadblocks are very, very real. If you can't beat Li in weight, you need to beat it in density - but sine most element are way heavier than Li, you need to beat it by a hefty amount. I'm pretty sure if I was trying to find a better battery and I read everything ever written about batteries tomorrow, I still wouldn't know where to start.

Once again, unlike the movies, there's no new element with miraculous properties to synthesize either. At least not a stable one.

 

[R-T-B]

LiFePO4 batts are less prone to explode/burn than Li-Ion but make no mistake, they still can (because lithium is a mean element), and they are still dangerous in the wrong scenario.

Here is wikipedias explanation:

Safety

One important advantage over other lithium-ion chemistries is thermal and chemical stability, which improves battery safety.[30] LiFePO
4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO
2 and manganese dioxide spinels through omission of the cobalt, with its negative temperature coefficient of resistance that can encourage thermal runaway. The P–O bond in the (PO
4)3−
ion is stronger than the Co–O bond in the (CoO
2)−
ion, so that when abused (short-circuited, overheated, etc.), the oxygen atoms are released more slowly. This stabilization of the redox energies also promotes faster ion migration.[34]

 

[Mescalamba]

LiFePO4 batts are less prone to explode/burn than Li-Ion but make no mistake, they still can, and they are still dangerous in the wrong scenario.

All Lithium based batteries react poorly to stress and heat up enough to catch fire, if not cooled. One of biggest challenges for Rimac was how to actually cool that thing. And one can expect more fire accidents as number of EVs will go up.

Yeah i think so EV's the battery are a high percentage of the weight and the cost. So cost per watt must be horrendous, same as watt per kilo?

Its close to 1/2 of a price and 1/3 - 1/4 weight. Depends on car. Price for new is usually high enough that you can just buy a new car. And fill old one with explosives and just blow it up. Like that guy from Finland with Tesla did.

 

[R-T-B]

All Lithium based batteries react poorly to stress and heat up enough to catch fire, if not cooled.

Was not denying that but there are degrees of severity to the problem, as my explanation linked above illustrates chemically.

 

[AusWolf]

What boggles my mind even more than Li-ion technology being behind the requirements of our age is that governments are still pushing it to take over internal combustion engines. I mean, only electric cars in the UK from 2030? I can't see that happen on Li-ion. Sorry, green-minded people, but I really can't. I live in an apartment with no infrastructure to charge a car at home, and I don't have hours to waste at a station. Politicians of our times seem to have no connection to reality at all.

 

[R-T-B]

What boggles my mind even more than Li-ion technology being behind the requirements of our age is that governments are still pushing it to take over internal combustion engines. I mean, only electric cars in the UK from 2030? I can't see that happen on Li-ion. Sorry, green-minded people, but I really can't. I live in an apartment with no infrastructure to charge a car at home, and I don't have hours to waste at a station. Politicians of our times seem to have no connection to reality at all.

I totally see it as doable, but I know congress will never approve the money needed to truly do it (it would be a very large sum).

So same end result, anyways.

Also, keep in mind statements like "all electric by 2030" probably only consider NEW car sales. The used market will have the ICE for some time after that.

 

[trog100]

one thing is for sure.. none of the small fancy portable gadgets we depend on today would be possible without li-ion batteries..

trog

 

[AusWolf]

I totally see it as doable, but I know congress will never approve the money needed to truly do it (it would be a very large sum).

So same end result, anyways.

Also, keep in mind statements like "all electric by 2030" probably only consider NEW car sales. The used market will have the ICE for some time after that.

Yes, it's about new car sales, but how long will petrol be around? How long will my car last? What happens after? What about people like me, who live in an apartment? EVs as of their current state bring more questions than answers, and more complications than solutions, imo. It would be much better if industries (the main polluters of the planet) targeted zero emission standards, and governments left common people mind their own business. But no, blaming you and me for killing the planet by commuting is easier than asking their friend, Elon to develop something that's actually useful, and not just a toy for rich man-children with a serious face.

 

[Space Lynx]

Yes, it's about new car sales, but how long will petrol be around? How long will my car last? What happens after? What about people like me, who live in an apartment? EVs as of their current state bring more questions than answers, and more complications than solutions, imo. It would be much better if industries (the main polluters of the planet) targeted zero emission standards, and governments left common people mind their own business. But no, blaming you and me for killing the planet by commuting is easier than asking their friend, Elon to develop something that's actually useful, and not just a toy for rich man-children with a serious face.

Yeah, Elon caring about the planet is a joke. His endorsement of so many cryptos, his non-stop joking around, never once trying to bring an affordable EV to the middle class that is cut down on features (trickle down my ass, we live in a two class caste system in United States and its been this way for decades, he will never saturate his first market), yet all along the way taking tax payer money for every single one of his ventures. Starlink got tax payer money, Tesla with the $7500 credit was enough to keep the company afloat during its bad years, Spacex with NASA and military contracts, as far as I am concerned he is no different than any of the many elites. Very few people actually have helped the middle class improve their lives instead of having a hyper focus on the biggest profit margin possible, OPEN AI had good intentions as a non-profit then he turned it into a for-profit last I read.

If I am forced to go to EV someday I will be giving my money to Toyota, and I expect by end of 2020's toyota will have all solid state EV's, leaving Elon in the dust with longevity, he won't be able to convert his gigafactories to solid state as easily as he thinks. Toyota played it smart, waited for it to mature just enough. The fact Toyota is bringing solid state to market in 2026 in hybrids gives me hope, plus I trust toyota quality way more than tesla quality.

Tesla is going to be a relic of the past once toyota brings a 20k EV solid state to market in like 2030, and spacex Mars plan fails cause the hubris has blinded everyone involved in that project. Mars is brutal and no skilled worker is going to want to live and work there, when they can be on Earth making six figures and living the dream life of the 1%.

 

[R-T-B]

Yes, it's about new car sales, but how long will petrol be around? How long will my car last? What happens after? What about people like me, who live in an apartment?

You know how capitalism works. If there's enough of you to justify it, there'll be stations for ICE cars.

 

[Space Lynx]

You know how capitalism works. If there's enough of you to justify it, there'll be stations for ICE cars.

pretty sure it was socialist government policy in 1956 (to create the highway system with tax payer money) that created the market ability for cars to become the norm to begin with in USA. capitalism takes a lot of undeserved credit sometimes, but eh who cares anymore at this point?

 

[R-T-B]

pretty sure it was socialist government policy in 1956 (to create the highway system with tax payer money) that created the market ability for cars to become the norm to begin with in USA. capitalism takes a lot of undeserved credit sometimes, but eh who cares anymore at this point?

I simply mean if theres buyers, there'll be sellers. That's capitalism 101. Wasn't touching on how much we need government moderation in said capitalism (and yes, we do).

I haven't gone full bioshock esque rapture but I really doubt gas is going to vanish, is my point.

 

[Space Lynx]

I simply mean if theres buyers, there'll be sellers. That's capitalism 101. Wasn't touching on how much we need government moderation in said capitalism (and yes, we do).

I haven't gone full bioshock esque rapture but I really doubt gas is going to vanish, is my point.

ya it def won't vanish in USA. too much variety in state sovereignty to allow that to happen, it might vanish in some states that have a knee jerk reaction, and the poor class will suffer in those states since they won't be able to buy used EV cars cheap like they have gas ones historically.

 

[Paganstomp]

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Yes, it's about new car sales, but how long will petrol be around? How long will my car last? What happens after? What about people like me, who live in an apartment? EVs as of their current state bring more questions than answers, and more complications than solutions, imo. It would be much better if industries (the main polluters of the planet) targeted zero emission standards, and governments left common people mind their own business. But no, blaming you and me for killing the planet by commuting is easier than asking their friend, Elon to develop something that's actually useful, and not just a toy for rich man-children with a serious face.

This I agree with, the all social driver's are to blame, personal transportation to me shouldn't be the first target for electrification, All public transport, commercial transport and logistics and shipping transport should have been electrified first, and as @lynx29 points to ,I think in another thread.
Construction emits over 30% co2 solve the big , conceptually necessary emitters first , then you would have the public transport network to push drivers towards.
At the minute some dik in government is arguing against personal vehicle ownership while busses and trains across the network have been cancelled , I work 36 miles away, I can't f£#@&£ walk there.

 

[chrcoluk]

There may well be already amazing batteries developed but just not released, with the mobile phone industry one thing that has made it so profitable is they have mastered drip feeding improvements.

As an example if they can boost CPU power by 300%, instead of putting it on next years phone, they may give a 50% improvement over 6 generations.

Ironically my best phone for batteries is a budget model, I havent found any premium model that matches the battery capacity, probably because the premium models prioritise looks and slimness of phone over functionality.

 

[AusWolf]

ya it def won't vanish in USA. too much variety in state sovereignty to allow that to happen, it might vanish in some states that have a knee jerk reaction, and the poor class will suffer in those states since they won't be able to buy used EV cars cheap like they have gas ones historically.

Even if they could, there's basically no second-hand market for EVs due to battery degradation and poor charging infrastructure. To make EVs a viable option for common people, 1. they have to be a lot cheaper, 2. battery technology has to improve, 3. charging infrastructure has to be created for people with no access to their own charging station (i.e. no garage), 4. it has to be standardised across brands. The message should be "let me help you to a more eco-friendly solution" instead of "this will happen whether you like it or not".

This I agree with, the all social driver's are to blame, personal transportation to me shouldn't be the first target for electrification, All public transport, commercial transport and logistics and shipping transport should have been electrified first, and as @lynx29 points to ,I think in another thread.
Construction emits over 30% co2 solve the big , conceptually necessary emitters first , then you would have the public transport network to push drivers towards.
At the minute some dik in government is arguing against personal vehicle ownership while busses and trains across the network have been cancelled , I work 36 miles away, I can't f£#@&£ walk there.

I agree, yet I see no indication of public transport going in the electric direction. BP on the other hand has already started advertising the "all-electric 2030" on youtube, the damn hypocrites.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

There needs to be a certain amount of cable less charging slots, where you don't need a cable plugging in. Could possibly even have one setup outside of your house.

There may well be already amazing batteries developed but just not released, with the mobile phone industry one thing that has made it so profitable is they have mastered drip feeding improvements.

As an example if they can boost CPU power by 300%, instead of putting it on next years phone, they may give a 50% improvement over 6 generations.

Ironically my best phone for batteries is a budget model, I havent found any premium model that matches the battery capacity, probably because the premium models prioritise looks and slimness of phone over functionality.

It's the mid range phones that have the best battery life, but who wants a mid range phone.

 

[AusWolf]

It's the mid range phones that have the best battery life, but who wants a mid range phone.

I do! What can a high-end phone do that a mid-range one can't, anyway?

 

[chrcoluk]

There needs to be a certain amount of cable less charging slots, where you don't need a cable plugging in. Could possibly even have one setup outside of your house.



It's the mid range phones that have the best battery life, but who wants a mid range phone.

Serves me well as a work phone, it lasts almost a week between charges, over 5000mah capacity.

In addition it has a camera better than a older flagship I have, I think we getting to the point with phones, where the added value is diminishing on the top end.

 

[Mescalamba]

Serves me well as a work phone, it lasts almost a week between charges, over 5000mah capacity.

In addition it has a camera better than a older flagship I have, I think we getting to the point with phones, where the added value is diminishing on the top end.

Curious, what phone you have? Myself I bought AsusROG 3 for same reason. Sure its gamer phone, but for everyday use its kinda really good, very fast and battery last days.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Reason why EVs are still no go is same as hundred years ago. Too heavy, not enough capacity, slow to recharge.

That's true of Lithium batteries as well.

They can push it as much as they want, but unless someone makes a lot better battery (major breakthrough required), or real fuel cell, its just destined to fail.

This!

Unsafe as Li may be, few things can beat it it the weight department.

That is an aspect we should care less about.

Once again, unlike the movies, there's no new element with miraculous properties to synthesize either.

We don't need new elements. We need creative thinking to formulate better chemistries from the existing lot.

LiFePO4 batts are less prone to explode/burn than Li-Ion but make no mistake, they still can (because lithium is a mean element), and they are still dangerous in the wrong scenario.

Here is wikipedias explanation:

​

While that is correct, the problem is volume. In small amounts, yes LiFePo is safer by far. But in large battery packs like the type that go into vehicles, cascade and runaway effects apply dramatically. The danger is reduced, sure, but not by nearly enough.

The solution is NOT Lithium based.

 

[bug]

That is an aspect we should care less about.

As long as those batteries have to move, I don't see how weight can be ignored.

We don't need new elements.

There aren't any, so yeah...

We need creative thinking to formulate better chemistries from the existing lot.

Maybe. Or maybe we need some outside-the-box thinking and another way to harness electricity. Both easier said than done