Throttlestop overclocking Desktop PCs

frankr2994 · Jan 30, 2022

Retrorockit said:
I'm a retired truck mech. On my own with all of this. Genius 239 says his BIOS should already have the microcode I need. This is a 2nd Opti 380 MB so i'm starting fresh with this one. This is also my daily driver computer. I'll flash his 771 BIOS and see what happens. He says it has all the microcodes. I was so shocked an Optiplex would run over a 95W CPU (X5470) I didn't really think of trying to make the QX9650 run. But I'm seeing it running on G41 in a few places. The only other 130W one was the Opti 745 which had Pentium D support, but no 333fsb or 45nm CPU suppport. The Opti 380 is Dell Legacy BTX era BIOS so anything named uefi probably won't work.

You and I have talked about this before. I'm a not retired mechanic lol. Apparently what we do with these dells no one else really does. Everytime I try and research more on my system I keep coming across my own post on varying sites sometimes just talking to myself. Still baffles me though. My system is current enough to be like modern good and it's dirt cheap. Wish more people would go that route.

Retrorockit · Jan 30, 2022

But you are obviously more experienced with the programming side of computers than I am. I just put together another web crawler so I can work on the Opti 380. I'll be thrilled if this bottom feeder Optiplex can run a QX9650 and TS overclock it decently.
My web crawler has an unlocked 2 core. E6500K. No SSE4 so not the greatest CPU. But it's unlocked and in a Optriplex XE Desktop (no XE towers) with 12GB DDR3 and a GTX1050Ti 4GB. The 2 slot full height 1050 is stuffed in there sidways with a Dell 90* bracket they have for the Opti desktops. I've got a 150cfm fan for it on the way form China, and a nice 130W Pentium D cooler that I can cram in there when the fan gets. The 4 phase VRM might actually add up to something. But for now I have the stock 95W heatpipe cooler and fan in it. The 2 core cooler for these heavy duty computers was a nice all copper soldered fin heatsink, not the usual Optiplex aluminum lump. Whatever I get with the E6500K I'll try to duplicate via pin mods on an E7600 to get SSE4 support. Not the most exciting project. Everything is just a bit less than what the Opti towers can handle except the 12GB RAM.

Retrorockit · Jan 31, 2022

Well the Opti XE wouldn't boot the China only E6500K. So it has a Q9505s instead. The reason for the backup is I want to try for a QX9650 in the Opti 380. Then it will be a TSOC project.

Retrorockit · Feb 3, 2022

I blew up my Dell XPS420 testing QX9650s. It wouldn't be a big deal except I just bought a new ASUS GTX1660Ti for it. Fortunately I have a big enough pile of old Dell crap I just started over and converted it to an XPS430. Everything is the same except now It's DDR3 and X48 instead of DDR2 and X38. So now 400fsb is official. This is about the only kind of Dell MB swap that works. When they add just one feature like newer RAM. So It's QX9650, 12GB DDR3 @1333, and GTX1660Ti. I couldn't heatsink the VRM because my tube of heatsink cement had dried up. So I'm at the average Throttlestop overclock for these of 4.15GHz. ASUS tried to make the card look big and tough, so I had to cut it down to size to get it in the Dell BTX. Just a a little plastic surgery. So I was at the point of no return (literally) with this one. I'm surprised I had 32GB of DDR3 laying around since I've almost never needed it before (maybe that's why I still have it?). 12GB in an Opti XE, 12GB in the XPS430, and 8GB in the Opti 380. I even have enough left over for a couple X58 projects.

lexluthermiester · Feb 3, 2022

Retrorockit said:
So It's QX9650, 12GB DDR3 @1333, and GTX1660Ti.

Nice!

Retrorockit said:
I couldn't heatsink the VRM because my tube of heatsink cement had dried up.

Superglue. I use it all the time. Just a tiny amount after using sandpaper to lightly rough up the heatsink and bob's-ur-uncle. Works like a charm.

And before anyone says it, no, SuperGlue is not a the thermal insulator everyone claims it to be. It's not a perfect thermal conductor, true, but in such a small amount and with EVERY crack & gap being filled & sealed, it works a fair treat.

frankr2994 · Feb 3, 2022

Retrorockit said:
I blew up my Dell XPS420 testing QX9650s. It wouldn't be a big deal except I just bought a new ASUS GTX1660Ti for it. Fortunately I have a big enough pile of old Dell crap I just started over and converted it to an XPS430. Everything is the same except now It's DDR3 and X48 instead of DDR2 and X38. So now 400fsb is official. This is about the only kind of Dell MB swap that works. When they add just one feature like newer RAM. So It's QX9650, 12GB DDR3 @1333, and GTX1660Ti. I couldn't heatsink the VRM because my tube of heatsink cement had dried up. So I'm at the average Throttlestop overclock for these of 4.15GHz. ASUS tried to make the card look big and tough, so I had to cut it down to size to get it in the Dell BTX. Just a a little plastic surgery. So I was at the point of no return (literally) with this one. I'm surprised I had 32GB of DDR3 laying around since I've almost never needed it before (maybe that's why I still have it?). 12GB in an Opti XE, 12GB in the XPS430, and 8GB in the Opti 380. I even have enough left over for a couple X58 projects.

When I have more free time I can get another t5810 motherboard for 45 bucks. Probably cheaper if I hunt. I have enough stuff here to put it together without fear or actually hurting what I need to use. Maybe I can blow stuff up too. Avx workload on that 1650 v3 overclocked I'm sure is around 200 watts........

Retrorockit · Feb 3, 2022

I grab spare motherboards when I can. I picked up a couple T3400 boards for $14 each. It's the same as the XPS420 with some different I/O options. I'm going to do my CPU experiments on one of those.
I also have 3 of the Opti XEs. They came with a T3500 for $80. So they were either free or $20 each. Shopping by Dell part# instead of system description can get you better pricing sometimes. I didn't need the XPS430 MB until I did. The more parts I threw at the XPS 420 the more it beeped at me. I'm going to try for a RAID0 with a couple 120GB SSDs in it. The manual says the BIOS can do it.
When I got the MB out I found a copper heatsink that was too close to the BTX cooler mounting had come loose. I t may have shorted something out. Whether it's permanent damage or not IDK. To test it I would need another XPS420 front I/O panel and cable. Rare and expensive stuff.

lexluthermiester said:
Nice!

Superglue. I use it all the time. Just a tiny amount after using sandpaper to lightly rough up the heatsink and bob's-ur-uncle. Works like a charm.

And before anyone says it, no, SuperGlue is not a the thermal insulator everyone claims it to be. It's not a perfect thermal conductor, true, but in such a small amount and with EVERY crack & gap being filled & sealed, it works a fair treat.

That's not the problem with Superglue. It offgasses and ruins optical drives. Puts a film on the lasers. I think Gorilla glue is different. But IDK how good it is for heatsinks. I got that from an old timer who fabricates prototypes of electronic devices.
The problem I had was using Alphacool copper sinks that need to be opened up like a fan. I should have put a vertical part in one place like an Enzotech MOS10. The BTX cooler don't drop straight down. This one heatsink got in the way.

lexluthermiester · Feb 3, 2022

Retrorockit said:
It offgasses and ruins optical drives. Puts a film on the lasers.

Never had that experience. Once Superglue cures, which is fully complete in minutes, it's vapors are gone. So that's really a very, very minor concern.

Retrorockit said:
The BTX cooler don't drop straight down. This one heatsink got in the way.

Small heatsinks shouldn't be a problem.

I didn't make my comment to criticize, just to offer advice for future.

Retrorockit · Feb 3, 2022

I got that from an old German machinist who made a video about what he does. When it gets hot things may change. On CSI shows they use Superglue vapor to reveal fingerprints.
Anyway that expert makes a point of not using it around electronics. I don't doubt that it will attach a heatsink, and it will work. But I'm going to "stick" with stuff made for the purpose.
When "working" on 12 year old computers there's no point in being in a hurry.

Here's something I tried that worked out as "planned". I actually couldn't see the result unitl I tried it. But it applies to the locked BIOS computer most of us have here.
Here's a CPUZ of my Opti 380 with generic DDR3 1333RAM running at the 1066 speed this Dell allows. Timings are 7-7-7-20

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9505S @ 2826.28 MHz - CPU-Z VALIDATOR

[kw5tpl] Validated Dump by 20DOLLARDELL (2022-01-09 13:33:40) - MB: Dell 0HN7XN - RAM: 8192 MB

valid.x86.fr

I then installed some Crucial Ballistix Sport RAM CAS9@1600. At 1066 speed it's now 6-6-6-16

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9505S @ 2825.98 MHz - CPU-Z VALIDATOR

[74uad7] Validated Dump by 20DOLLARDELL (2022-02-03 15:44:41) - MB: Dell 0HN7XN - RAM: 8192 MB

valid.x86.fr

Since we can't change FSB and memory speed on these. Better latency is something to look for.
It would be pretty easy to go from CAS9, or even CAS11 ECC RAM to CAS7@1333 on an X58 workstation. That's what these modules would run at.

lexluthermiester · Feb 4, 2022

Retrorockit said:
I got that from an old German machinist who made a video about what he does. When it gets hot things may change. On CSI shows they use Superglue vapor to reveal fingerprints.
Anyway that expert makes a point of not using it around electronics. I don't doubt that it will attach a heatsink, and it will work. But I'm going to "stick" with stuff made for the purpose.
When "working" on 12 year old computers there's no point in being in a hurry.

That's interesting. SuperGlue emits vapors only in an uncured, liquid state. Once it solidifies, there are no more vapors. I have never had any negative experience using it on and around electronics. But no worries, was just offering an option.

frankr2994 · Feb 4, 2022

On the whole thermal adhesive topic what works good. I've been looking into it recently finding all different types of tape and glue that everyone says doesn't work. I'd still like to add something onto the chokes for my vrm and I'd have to "stick" them on.

Susquehannock · Feb 4, 2022

Masking tape only on the corners, spread favorite TIM, remove tape, apply small drop of glue on bare corners, apply heatsink.

frankr2994 · Feb 4, 2022

Susquehannock said:
Masking tape only on the corners, spread favorite TIM, remove tape, apply small drop of glue on bare corners, apply heatsink.

I like it. And since I don't need my optical drive....ever I'll use super glue lol. Thanks for the tip

Retrorockit · Feb 4, 2022

I[ve been paying the price and making the mess using Arctic 2 part silver epoxy. But I did stick 1 Enzotech heatsink back on with superglue. finally broke down and did it.
It an XPS420 again!
The heatsink came off because the oversized ASUS GPU had me sllding the heatsink forward and then up. I either have to trim the GPU shroud some more, or take the video card out first.
I think I need to take the bigass ASUS card out and put an MSI GTX1060 6GB in while I'm working on it so the heatsink can come off and on easily.
The heatsinks on the 420 MB did get me up to 4.32GHZ @ 1.425V running about 70*. The 150x50 delta fan has no trouble holding that at just slightly raised speed. if I go to 1.435V and try to go higher it crashes.
Now that I think about it I've seen this Voltage problem before. Raise the Voltage, the fan speeds up, and it crashes. I need to move the Big Delta fan off of the MB header. I'll run it on the GPU rail.
Probably the 3 phase VRM is at it's limit. It runs the TS long benchmark OK at that speed. CPUZ scores 390 single core, and 1495 multicore in their benchmark. Pretty close to i7-2600k @ 3.40GHz.
270 and 1049 were the base scores. I did get the 2 SSDs in RAID0. My internet is just 1 cable to one computer so it hasn't been online yet.
I dropped the other lapped CPU on a tile floor so I'm going to test it on a T3400 first. I may try a couple other tricks there too. I might be able get a little more out of it The 400 fsb is there to play with. If I can get a base speed of 3.6GHz I'll try for a 2 core TS overclock. with 400 fsb. 4.4Ghz might happen. But if I end up at 4.2GHz 4 core that's good too.

I'm using a dry Thermal Grizzly graphite TIM pad. TX-4 might do better, and I have another QX9650 that's lapped. Those and a more aggressive fan profile on the Delta fan can probably improve that.
It's holding 70* because Dell waits that long to speed up the fan.

I'm using a Dell PSU. The 425W XPS420 version. Dell PSUs aren't bad, they're just misunderstood.
To know what you actually have you need to look at the label and count the power on each rail. And remember Dell kept using the +5V. rail for a long time, so if you go aftermarket don't ignore that.
Here are a few examples.
Optiplex XE 1x18A 12V. rail 1x 3A. 24V. USB rail, rated 300W. This little desktop PSU has 216W of 12V. power. 72W on the 24V. line. 300W=216W 12V.
Old Optiplex MT 305W PSU. 2x18A 12V. rails. Do the math. That's 432 Watts of 12V. power. On a test bench it WILL make over 400W. No GPU cable. 305W= 400W 12V.
Dell T3400 375W PSU. 2x18A. 12V. rails. It adds a 75W GPU cable. The rating goes up because the connector is there to use it. 375W=400W 12V
Dell XPS 420 #L425P 425W PSU 3x 18A 12V. rails. It adds a 2nd 75W GPU cable. But they both run off of their own 216W rail. It may have 425W of connectors,425W= 600W 12V.
They will all do what Dell says they will do. But some of them can do a whole lot more.

frankr2994 · Feb 4, 2022

Not sure if it means anything since I've never had anyone explain to me on modifying the hex code for a bios but I think I have something figured out. I managed to re write in the intelRCSetup and change my default tdp to level 2. I now need to change my pp0 current to max. These are both settings that are supposedly easy to change on everything else using amibcp which is an AMI bios editing GUI but those settings don't stick with whatever Dell did. My thought is if I can make the default settings the ones that I want then it should work. If I manage this then the only failsafe will be when I burn a MOSFET out of my board.

Retrorockit · Feb 5, 2022

Sometimes you can see the settings you want, and maybe change them. But there is sometimes another locking bit somewhere. It can even be listed as read only. On PLL it's called TME. I've looked at Hex but never figured out how to do anything with it myself.

On the locked BIOS memory mod front I've ordered some Ballistix Tactical modules iwth CAS 8 @1600. Uisng Neweggs Memory Finder Tool they came up as being good for an Opti 780.
So maybe I can go from previous CAS7 to CAS5 @ 1066 on the Opti 380.
Here is a calculator that converts RAM clock speed, and Latency to an actual nS speed.

RAM Speed Calculator | XBitLabs

This is a calculator to determine an absolute RAM latency or RAM speed.

www.xbitlabs.com

1066 @ CAS 7 = 13.1ns Previous Hynix RAM
1066 @ CAS 6 = 11.3ns Opti 380 now CBS RAM @ 1066
1600 @ CAS 9 = 11.3ns Same damned thing! Crucial Ballistix Sport RAM rated speed.
1600 @ CAS 8 = 10.0ns Ballistix Tactical RAM
1066 @ CAS 5 = 6.3ns which may or may not actually happen. Nobody publishes this info.
But the X48 can run at 1333 so maybe CAS 6 there?
1333 @ CAS 6 = 9.0ns Faster than 1600 @ CAS 8.
Any way it's possible to put a number on this mod.

BTW 800 @ CAS 5 = 12.5ns which is what I'm trying to get in DDR2 for the XPS 420, or T3400.

frankr2994 · Feb 5, 2022

Retrorockit said:
On the locked BIOS memory mod front I've ordered some Ballistix Tactical modules iwth CAS 8 @1600. Uisng Neweggs Memory Finder Tool they came up as being good for an Opti 780.
So maybe I can go from previous CAS7 to CAS5 @ 1066 on the Opti 380.
Here is a calculator that converts RAM clock speed, and Latency to an actual nS speed.

RAM Speed Calculator | XBitLabs

This is a calculator to determine an absolute RAM latency or RAM speed.

www.xbitlabs.com

1066 @ CAS 7 = 13.1ns Previous Hynix RAM
1066 @ CAS 6 = 11.3ns Opti 380 now CBS RAM @ 1066
1600 @ CAS 9 = 11.3ns Same damned thing! Crucial Ballistix Sport RAM rated speed.
1600 @ CAS 8 = 10.0ns Ballistix Tactical RAM
1066 @ CAS 5 = 6.3ns which may or may not actually happen. Nobody publishes this info.
But the X48 can run at 1333 so maybe CAS 6 there?
1333 @ CAS 6 = 9.0ns Faster than 1600 @ CAS 8.
Any way it's possible to put a number on this mod.

BTW 800 @ CAS 5 = 12.5ns which is what I'm trying to get in DDR2 for the XPS 420, or T3400.

Now that's some good info. I've never made much effort with ram before other than buying gskill. That's a brand that I've never had a failure on so I stuck to it. I've often wondered about some of the crazy high speeds out there and how they compare with an equally high latency. Never knew there was a way at doing the math. Supposedly I can change some things with my ecc memory in my bios but 1 step at a time lol.

Retrorockit · Feb 5, 2022

The older Dells require X64 low density RAM and Crucial is good about that. It's even in the part# of most of the Crucial brand. 51264=4GB 25664=2GB. Right there in plain sight.
In my situation I've had older GSkill run, and newer ones with the same part# replaced under warranty not work at all. I suspect they would both run in newer systems.
The worst thing about LGA775 is the 2 channel memory. So any improvement there is worth pursuing. But it's a dirty little secret of multiplier overclocking that you don't necessarily have to leave anything on the table vs. FSB overclocking. BTW, X48 chipset supports XMP memory profiles. So the XPS430 board may get heatsinked and used after all.
There is DDR2 CAS4 10ns out there. But 4GB modules would be a big ask, and much of it is overvolted anyway.

Retrorockit · Feb 6, 2022

It's interesting where the low latency memory showed up in the scores at userbenchmark. My CPU is now rated 95% ranking for it's type at stock speed, and my GPU is at 98%. I'm not sure if it's at stock speed or if MSI Afterburner is still in play. But it's a single fan card so OC may not explain it all. The RAM score is still low % because the same RAM is running in 3 channel, and 4 channel systems. I had the same thing with the X5470 Xeon due to it being a dual socket CPU. Stuck in the bottom 50%.

Dell OptiPlex 380 Performance Results - UserBenchmark

This isn't on the leaderboard because my best run was my Xeon tweaked with Setfsb ( not much there on G41) and tuned up GPU. Xeon was 58%,59% GPU. The Q9505s is 57.3% and GPU is 57.7%. Considering the 1.5 multiplier difference, and twice the cache, with a 65W CPU versus a 120W that's a pretty good deal.

Retrorockit · Feb 9, 2022

I came across the Dell factory overclock settings for the X58 Alienware systems. They're doing it in the BIOS. But it might give some starting point for a T3500 TS overclock.

Alienware Area 51 ALX i7 LGA1366 X58 System Main Motherboard J560M | DELL Technologies

I had some old parts and wanted to build something with them so combined with a few parts I had to buy one of which was the Area 51 motherboard I put together this machine:Alienware Area 51 ALX i7 ...

www.dell.com

lexluthermiester · Feb 9, 2022

Retrorockit said:
I came across the Dell factory overclock settings for the X58 Alienware systems. They're doing it in the BIOS. But it might give some starting point for a T3500 TS overclock.

Alienware Area 51 ALX i7 LGA1366 X58 System Main Motherboard J560M | DELL Technologies

I had some old parts and wanted to build something with them so combined with a few parts I had to buy one of which was the Area 51 motherboard I put together this machine:Alienware Area 51 ALX i7 ...

www.dell.com

That would be kinda cool!

unclewebb · Feb 9, 2022

Retrorockit said:
They're doing it in the BIOS.

ThrottleStop already allows you to overclock the T3500. The Extreme Core i7-980X and 990X and the Xeon W3680 and W3690 can be overclocked by using ThrottleStop because all of these CPUs have an unlocked multiplier. You can also use ThrottleStop to increase the TDP and TDC values as long as the CPU is not locked.

Any decent X58 desktop motherboard allows BCLK overclocking but this has to be done in the BIOS before Windows boots up. BCLK overclocking while in Windows can screw up the accuracy of some of the internal clocks and should be avoided.

Same thing for voltage control. You can adjust this in the BIOS on desktop boards. Core i 1st Gen CPUs do not have an integrated voltage regulator (FIVR) so software voltage adjustment by using ThrottleStop is never going to be possible.

lexluthermiester · Feb 9, 2022

unclewebb said:
ThrottleStop already allows you to overclock the T3500.

I think he means the bclk and multi overclocking that seemed to have been present in the Alienware BIOS in systems Dell built.

Retrorockit · Feb 9, 2022

It's a little confusing because Throttlestop does adjust Voltage on the unlocked LGA775 CPUs which also don't have FIVR. It's done directly by choosing Voltage.
X58 seems to do it by choosing an "offset". But I have no idea where or how the "offset" takes place. Also no idea what the actual resulting Voltage would be.
I have one of the Alienware Aurora boards sitting around here. It would be my first ATX build since socket 7 days. There were a couple Aurora versions with different factory OC limits and I think mine is the more restricted version. The AW MB is an MSI product so it may have aftermarket features other Dells won't have.
It's interesting that LGA1136 uses the same VRD 11 Voltage table as LGA775. But VID6 is set high which limits Voltage to 1.2125 or less. I haven't found the LGA1366 socket pinout to go further.
But there seems to be some LGA775 DNA in there somewhere.
Anyway there are some Dell approved TDP and TDC settings to work from.

unclewebb · Feb 9, 2022

Retrorockit said:
It's a little confusing because Throttlestop does adjust Voltage on the unlocked LGA775 CPUs

Software CPU voltage control is possible on the older Core 2 Duo based CPUs and it is possible on the 4th Gen and newer CPUs that have the FIVR. Unfortunately it is not possible to use software to control the voltage of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Gen Core i CPUs. For these CPUs, voltage control is only possible in the BIOS. I think desktop motherboards feed voltage to the CPU directly and ignore the VRD voltage table. Intel XTU and ThrottleStop have never allowed voltage control of the early Core i CPUs because there is nothing there to control.

Retrorockit said:
some Dell approved TDP and TDC settings

Those Dell recommended values look familiar. I used a TDP value of 180W to run the TS Bench at full speed without any throttling when overclocking a T3500 - W3680. I think TDC was OK at its stock value. This thread has been going for quite a while now.