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US Wants ASML to Stop Product Shipments to China

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As has been said already, they will simply steal it anyhow. Let the Dutch company protect their ip as best they see fit.
 
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This is exactly why the China-US trade wars started, China steals IP to under cut the market so dependencies focus on it.

This being a political article, my opinion is that I can see this happening under Trump, so its kind of surprising to me that this happened under the current administration.


I am not sure thats entirely the right move, I mean there has to be something worth trading with China just to keep political talks happening, this kinda of move could anger China into desperate actions. I'd rather see tariffs apply/increase instead of trade sanctions.
If we take away their only means of making money they lose ability to control, attack, or run anything. The manufacturing/exporting industry is over 40% of their GDP. If we take that away their already weak military becomes weaker and countries like taiwan and japan can feel safer as well. I am by no mean an economist though, just my opinion.
 
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If we take away their only means of making money they lose ability to control, attack, or run anything. The manufacturing/exporting industry is over 40% of their GDP. If we take that away their already weak military becomes weaker and countries like taiwan and japan can feel safer as well. I am by no mean an economist though, just my opinion.
I get all that, that would be a full on embargo, not gonna happen in reality. That will hurt those countries needing to trade with China, like ASML here, its a source of income, 16% is nothing to take lightly, hence ASML's bird flying at the US.
 
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That will hurt those countries needing to trade with China, like ASML here, its a source of income
Well like the many from US itself? How many billions of revenues does Apple, Intel, AMD, QC, Micron, Broadcom (Avago?) & of course ARM gets from their businesses operating in China but more importantly through their exports from China? You'll find that if the West if willing to pay 1.5-2.5x for their iPhones or PC then (replacing) China wouldn't even be a problem, but that's also a pipe dream! Don't want China to be a player at your poker table ~ pay more or endorse socialism i.e. near zero margins for these companies, Capitalism 101 o_O
 
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Don"t cry if china ban apple from making phones and other occidental companies, it will be hell on earth because for some people who spend their life on the phones. It will the same for other products :kookoo:
 
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If ASML uses USA patents (without USA using any ASML patent) there is a ground for debate, if both ASML-USA have an agreement to cross-use patents it would seem fair (since ASML is the global leader in their field) if USA wants ASML to stop selling to China, first the number one USA player that uses ASML patents to also stop selling to China (which isn't going to happen...)
If ASML doesn't use USA patents then it's just extortion, what place has a foreign country from the other side of Atlantic meddling with the business relationships between two other sovereign nations?
 
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@Daven
I'm not aware of using anything from them, not even TSMC. Only GloFo and Intel.
 
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first thing that came to mind
sorry

1657153278334.png
 
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Don"t cry if china ban apple from making phones and other occidental companies, it will be hell on earth because for some people who spend their life on the phones. It will the same for other products :kookoo:
They will find other place to fabric:made the product dont worry.

it already started (at higher production cost obviously) just tink of vietnam,taiwan etc..
 
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I other words: the US government being a bully again. What a surprise.
 
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Countries need to support themselves and stop trying to make democratic countries communist/socialist and communist/socialist countries democratic by using trade as a weapon to bend other countries to their will. If you want to sell products in a different country, then you move to that country and that country benefits from it(jobs, boost to their economy, technology, etc.) instead of this tangled mess that we have with cheap labor, large corporations in multiple countries, etc. The products are "cheaper" now because nobody wants to pay the common laborer a decent wage and have all of the profits go to shareholders & multi-million dollar salaries for execs/CEOs.
 

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Sounds like something that could give China more reasons to try to take over Taiwan...
 
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US refuses to release promised $50 billion funding for new fabs in US. Every manufacturer is stopping unfinished construction of such facilities out there. I think US don't care about EU interests. And alienate such market as China would me huge mistake.
 

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This is exactly why the China-US trade wars started, China steals IP to under cut the market so dependencies focus on it.

This being a political article, my opinion is that I can see this happening under Trump, so its kind of surprising to me that this happened under the current administration.


I am not sure thats entirely the right move, I mean there has to be something of worth trading with China just to keep political talks happening, this kinda of move could anger China into desperate actions. I'd rather see tariffs apply/increase instead of trade sanctions.
Yup Tarriffs keep things fair, The problem is the US got soft on them and now everyone is bitching about the tariffs being re-implemented, well other countries had tarriffs on US goods as well so...

Sounds like something that could give China more reasons to try to take over Taiwan...
They've already had plenty, think of Hong Kong.
 
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If China could produce bleeding edge fab manufacturing machines would it sell to other countries without restriction or the CCP wouldn't allow it to "protect their national interests"? The answer is pretty clear if you're not the most naive person in the world...
 
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It's kind of funny. Not the ha ha, more like the face palm.

China has been guilty of stealing IP. There's no doubt there. That said, they're capable of doing that largely because companies setup shop there. It's difficult to have IP that cannot be dissected in the country that is responsible for actually fabricating it. It is immensely depressing that this is where we are, but no party is free of responsibility here.

Now, the tech side. Lithographic machines are stupid expensive, and there are some pretty awesome patents pertaining as to how they actually work. As such, there's only one real supplier of the lithographic machines because the barrier to entry is just nutty. This means that most machines for lithography never die they leave one plant, and get bought out by a cheaper low end manufacturer to run for years thereafter. Assuming the EUV machines are sent primarily to the EU and USA, there'll be a break in the manufacturing process forever. The current best chips are not capable of being fabricated, then the affordable stuff can't be, and finally the dirt cheap stuff disappears. This cripples manufacturing far beyond a single generation of chips.


It's my belief that the politics here are an attempt to deal a single blow, that forces a different way of thinking going forward. It'll be interesting. Imagine a China that can't source Intel and AMD processors...but they can scale up RISC to be a viable desktop. Maybe some of those cheap Chinesium desktops will actually be pretty good? I say this, because like most copies they're often garbage until they can actually have something unique to compete on. Read: AMD and Bulldozer. Itanium and Intel. Xerox and literal photocopy machines. Everything is bad, until it isn't. I'm also looking at you M2 from Apple...a company that demonstrates in a walled garden RISC has many benefits to offer.

While I think that this move by the US is about sourcing their own machines, I also think this is an opportunity for China. If they are actually capable of doing their own work, instead of simply stealing IP as they're regularly accused of, then we might just see some innovation. That said, the short term squabbling between politicians is pretty much all about optics. I'm getting tired of the outrage from both sides...and just hope that our largest concern is going to be affordable chips in the next decade.
 
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I'd be 100% supportive of this, if ASML were a US-based company. They're not, they're Dutch.
So, are we sanctioning The Netherlands now?
 
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Yeah but it's ok to give our oil reserves away.
Did someone tried to bully USA to give from their oil resources to the rest of the world, how is it the same with what potentially happening in ASML's case?
If USA don't want to sell it's their right of course.
What isn't right, is all these wars all over the world (middle east included) in order to bring "democracy" lol, when in reality the target is the natural resources of these countries (including oil) and after US troops left the people suffer even more than before, even USA politicians (like Tulsi Gabbard for example) start to admit this!
 

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Did someone tried to bully USA to give from their oil resources to the rest of the world, how is it the same with what potentially happening in ASML's case?
If USA don't want to sell it's their right of course.
What isn't right, is all these wars all over the world (middle east included) in order to bring "democracy" lol, when in reality the target is the natural resources of these countries (including oil) and after US troops left the people suffer even more than before, even USA politicians (like Tulsi Gabbard for example) start to admit this!
How is this POSSIBLY On-Topic??!!
THIS! This is why we can't have nice things.
 
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Not sure about this.
On one hand - this looks like reaching too far and USA does it often. Even if done for a good reason where/when does it stop?
On the other - China is NOT our friend and is becoming more belligerent, not to mention the much talked about open stealing.
 
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Just a question. Who or what gives US rights to demand or to impose such a thing?!? As far as I were aware, they are not even in Europe, EU or even on the same continent! Seriously!
 
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Just a question. Who or what gives US rights to demand or to impose such a thing?!? As far as I were aware, they are not even in Europe, EU or even on the same continent! Seriously!
I'm just guessing but I'd say money. Not saying its right by any means but that's almost always the leverage used today.
 

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