Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[Bomby569]

Electrolysis implies we have electricity, at which point just go with electric cars.

i would agree if it weren't for the batteries problem.

And what about planes and boats, using batteries there is simply impossible

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

People are also missing that if we actually start making enough H2 we can remove the reliance on burning gas for home heating/cooking etc and focus its use on production of materials that require it such as plastics etc therefore streching out strained/limited supplies for even longer. It is something that is seriously being looked at for UK gas network replacement due to the spike in prices of natural gas.

Is Electrolysis efficent? Currently no but just like anything when it becomes comercialised/used enough efficency will rise as money is put towards development.

 

[Shrek]

Geothermal heating/cooling is efficient, and one can cook by electricity, so I don't quite follow the reasoning.

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

Geothermal heating/cooling is efficient, and one can cook by electricity, so I don't quite follow the reasoning.

When electricity is 0.30 to 0.50c per kwh you still think people are going to be willing to shift to electrictiy? Cause thats the prices in the UK/EU and are only going up!!!

 

[Shrek]

How does that help if one is generating hydrogen by electrolysis?

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

How does that help if one is generating hydrogen by electrolysis?

Cause Commerical get massive discounts on Energy Usage vs home (up to 66%) and more discount with more usage

Also with our gas prices being 15-20% of our electricity costs again why are we going to change over to pure electricity? We get absolutly awful buyback on kwh generated by solar (20-25% effective) so unless you have 5-10k for a battery solution on top of the 5-10k of the solar install your 100% relying on the grid.

 

[dragontamer5788]

How does that help if one is generating hydrogen by electrolysis?

Hydrogen can be made using off-peak energy, rather than on-peak energy.

My area is ~7-cents off-peak energy costs, and ~30-cents on-peak electricity costs. Even with a 55% efficiency rate, using off peak energy "all the time" for Hydrogen-related stuff is a net-cost of 12-cents per kW-hr, far more economical than paying for 30+ cents peak energy usage.

These are residential figures, but I assume that commercial off-peak vs on-peak rates are similarly priced.

 

[Shrek]

why are we going to change over to pure electricity?

Because with geothermal heating, 1 kWh of electricity results in more than 1 kWh of heating.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Because with geothermal heating, 1 KWHr of electricity results in more than 1 KWHr of heating.

Hydrogen is electricity thanks to fuel cell technology. Use Hydrogen to run a heat pump, with Hydrogen serving as an effective "battery" of sorts to your fuel cell generator. Then run a heat pump with your electricity.

 

[Shrek]

Hydrogen is electricity thanks to fuel cell technology. Use Hydrogen to run a heat pump, with Hydrogen serving as an effective "battery" of sorts to your fuel cell generator. Then run a heat pump with your electricity.

So, you are saying don't use the electricity directly, but use it to generate hydrogen and then use the hydrogen to generate electricity?

 

[R-T-B]

And what about planes and boats, using batteries there is simply impossible

Drones quite readily illustrate this to be false. It would require a redesign sure but it would not be "impossible."

 

[dragontamer5788]

So, you are saying don't use the electricity directly, but use it to generate hydrogen and then use the hydrogen to generate electricity?

Yes.

Instead of using electricity directly, we use pumped-hydro stations to convert the electricity into water+gravity storage, and turn it back into electricity later. Instead of using electricity directly to run our EV cars, we put it into Li-ion batteries and use it later. Etc. etc.

The big problem with today's grid is one of storage. We see that H2 is a possible storage mechanism, especially when you understand the economics of peak vs off-peak energy usage (which is so huge that your concerns of "55% efficiency" are miniscule compared to the challenges of peak vs off-peak). Off-peak energy / 55% efficiency is still a hell of a lot cheaper than using on-peak energy.

 

[Shrek]

Instead of using electricity directly to run our EV cars, we put it into Li-ion batteries and use it later. Etc. etc.

Now you are talking... and have perhaps explained "Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?"

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

Drones quite readily illustrate this to be false. It would require a redesign sure but it would not be "impossible."

For aircraft turn around times is one of the harder things to do with batteries vs a "fuel"

Replaceable batteries could/should work for this but I can see how replacing 130 tonnes of batteries per flight could be problematic. Vs connecting 2 hoses to an aircraft for 20 mins to pump 130 tonnes of fuel in.

Cargo ships shouldnt run into this issue as they could be put on charge the moment they dock, but you also now run into needing to massively upgrade the capacity of the electricity grid for all the extra demand being placed on the grid for people charging mass amount of vehicles even with people charging vehicles overnight there is still that issue.

 

[defaultluser]

Yes, however fuel cells are more of an issue for efficiency - they run around 55%.

One method I see being possible is gas (petrol) stations turning into decentralized electrolysis locations and just pumping H2 like gasoline.

Anytime you shrink the size of any complex industrial process, you inherently increase inefficiency (this goes for electrolysis machines).

Micronuclear to the next level, just add cooling water...

Speak of the devil - micro nuclear planets still require almost as much monitoring and maintenance, plus backup safety devices ( by qualified and pricey folks) as a full-sized plant - so, when you get the same amount o total power is created as a big nuc, the total costs are higher

 

[dragontamer5788]

Now you are talking... and have perhaps explained "Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?"

We haven't abandoned H2 Cars though.

XCIENT Fuel Cell Truck | Hydrogen Truck | Hyundai Motor Company

XCIENT Fuel Cell is the world's first commercialized hydrogen fuel cell electric truck. Learn more about the power of sustainable mobility forward.

trucknbus.hyundai.com

The H2 Xcient Fuel Cell refills faster, cheaper, goes further, can be more fully loaded, etc. etc. than any Li-ion truck. If anything, ask yourself why the Tesla Semi isn't out yet: because Li-ion on larger scales is just not sustainable or reasonable. It takes too long to charge to be practical.

 

[defaultluser]

Drones quite readily illustrate this to be false. It would require a redesign sure but it would not be "impossible."

Propeller-driven planes would takes back to the good-old-days f sub 350 mph cruising speeds (unless you like your aircraft's propulsion to produce sonic booms )

Vertical flight is typically limited to half that speed (and thus light helicopters are a good idea for electric).

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

Propeller-driven planes would takes back to the good-old-days f sub 350 mph cruising speeds

Eh. not really anymore, propellor tech has came on a long ways since 1945 as well as engine tech. A400m (latest cargo plane for NATO) for example cruisers around mach 0.65 (485 Mph)

Jets still hold the advantage at around 0.8-85 mach cruise speeds but this is where things like the unducted fan technology could be translated to electric motors.



The main thing is turn around times.
For the average every day driver a 2-300 mile range is perfectly adequete for 95%+ of journey made without ever having to really use a charger beyond overnight charging
300-500 miles (realisticall 270 -450 based on historical comparisons of realistic vs stated range) for the Tesla Semi where your now talking an hour+ charge time at a super charger station vs 800+ for diesel fuel which is about a 10 minute fill up

The other thing is charge cycles
How many people go from say 90-100% charge to 20-10% charge on the battery in the EV every day?
How many HGVs would do the same once or multiple times per day?

What about sleepers? Do the power everything of the main driveline batteries or keep some dedicated leisure batteries for that sort of thing?

What about pack replacements. If a Model X battery pack cost is already 10-15k how much is a semi pack going to cost? An inframe overhaul of a traditional engine is only 10-15k and thats anywhere from 500k-750k+ miles

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

The big problem with today's grid is one of storage. We see that H2 is a possible storage mechanism, especially when you understand the economics of peak vs off-peak energy usage (which is so huge that your concerns of "55% efficiency" are miniscule compared to the challenges of peak vs off-peak). Off-peak energy / 55% efficiency is still a hell of a lot cheaper than using on-peak energy.

But I fail to see the advantage of H2 as energy storage over more traditional means on a grid scale. And in a distributed situation, safety could be a major concern - gravity storage would most likely be similar in setup costs, while being much much safer. And battery storage in a distributed method is already happening, like it or not.

 

[R-T-B]

Propeller-driven planes would takes back to the good-old-days f sub 350 mph cruising speeds (unless you like your aircraft's propulsion to produce sonic booms )

Vertical flight is typically limited to half that speed (and thus light helicopters are a good idea for electric).

He said "impossible" not " impractical"

 

[Steevo]

Drones quite readily illustrate this to be false. It would require a redesign sure but it would not be "impossible."

Like a ski boat it would never work. Like a boat that needs to be safe, it would never work, a plane where it's supposed to be very light weight to carry more cargo it will never work. Energy density.

 

[R-T-B]

Like a ski boat it would never work. Like a boat that needs to be safe, it would never work, a plane where it's supposed to be very light weight to carry more cargo it will never work. Energy density.

This same argument was used against flight in general. The problem is not insurmountable, it's a question of practicality and compromise.

 

[dragontamer5788]

But I fail to see the advantage of H2 as energy storage over more traditional means on a grid scale. And in a distributed situation, safety could be a major concern - gravity storage would most likely be similar in setup costs, while being much much safer. And battery storage in a distributed method is already happening, like it or not.

Electric Battery storage is measured in lol hundred-Megawatt-hours. Batteries are so laughably small that they are basically irrelevant, despite the hype.

Meanwhile: https://www.hydeal.com/hydeal-ambition

HyDeal Ambition aims at producing 3.6 Mt of green hydrogen in 2030 with 95 GW of solar and 67 GW of electrolyzer capacity, in an integrated upstream, midstream and downstream system spanning from Spain to France and Germany

You ain't getting 67GW of power from batteries. You just ain't. Now assume 10-hours of operation, and we're at 670GW-hrs of energy storage. (Energy is power x time).

And the hydrogen revolution is just beginning. It will continue to grow as technology improves in the foreseeable future.

Electrolyzer Hydrogen is needed to improve the efficiency of our food system anyway. Its going to happen whether or not you use it as a fuel. Fertilizer plants need that hydrogen to make ammonia, and ammonia to make fertilizer. Thanks to Fuel Cell technology, other people can benefit from this technology to generate electricity, and use it as a chemical energy solution rather than just fertilizer.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

This same argument was used against flight in general. The problem is not insurmountable, it's a question of practicality and compromise.

At the current energy density of batteries it is impossible to build aircraft that are commercially viable. Have you considered the power/weight ratio of a drone, or the flight time when loaded? Not even close to a traditional aircraft.

Now, as battery tech improves, it may move into lighter, smaller aircraft. I can see the piston engine being replaced by batteries, but not the turbine. However, H2 may be a good alternative fuel for the turbine.

Electric Battery storage is measured in lol hundred-Megawatt-hours. Batteries are so laughably small that they are basically irrelevant, despite the hype.

Meanwhile: https://www.hydeal.com/hydeal-ambition

I was by no means promoting battery storage. I was merely remarking that things like Tesla Powerwall exist.

I just can't see how H2 electrolysis and fuel cells will be the best method of energy storage no matter how distributed.

 

[R-T-B]

commercially viable.

I'm hearing a lot of words like this. You have to remember the poster I was replying too was claiming it was "impossible" outright, NOT impractical or any variant of that.