• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Core Performance Boost Contributes 14% to Ryzen 5 7600X Cinebench R23 Score

Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,688 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
Surface area matters if there is something under the surface. If you are just adding IHS for the sake of it, dontcha think they would have been doing that all this time?

The heat transfer from the die to the IHS is way more efficient than the heat transfer from the IHS to any cooler. The 'h' in that equation from die to a thin nickel plated copper IHS is probably like 20X higher than from IHS to cooler through some thermal paste. The package is then going to heat up according to the least efficient heat transfer point which requires more and more ΔT (difference in temperatures) and that is going to be the IHS to the cooler.
 
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
445 (0.11/day)
Location
Lithuania
Have you read a single thing I said? It's not about power! It's about heat dissipation! Why do you think some mobile SoCs run hot even though they consume around the 5 W range? Jesus...

The R5 3600 was a problem not because it was hungry, but because it couldn't dissipate its heat in a small case with limited airflow, while the i7 11700 can. The 3600 got to 90 °C at around 80 W, which is not even the default power limit (it's 88 W - read about PPT). The 11700 needed 130 W to reach that temperature with the same cooler.

If you still don't get it, I don't know how else you would.
But the temperature makes no difference, especially in your comparison. Yes, the 3600 reached a higher core temperature. But it still maxed out the power, so clearly it was being cooled enough. It might even have a higher core temperature at even lower wattage, because of how temperature gradient works on the core. Seriously, Celsius does not matter unless it actually throttles, which it doesn't seem like it did, you just see a number and go, ooo number big, competitor number small, must be better.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 25, 2020
Messages
5,831 (4.36/day)
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
System Name "Icy Resurrection"
Processor 13th Gen Intel Core i9-13900KS Special Edition
Motherboard ASUS ROG MAXIMUS Z790 APEX ENCORE
Cooling Noctua NH-D15S upgraded with 2x NF-F12 iPPC-3000 fans and Honeywell PTM7950 TIM
Memory 32 GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB F5-6800J3445G16GX2-TZ5RK @ 7600 MT/s 36-44-44-52-96 1.4V
Video Card(s) ASUS ROG Strix GeForce RTX™ 4080 16GB GDDR6X White OC Edition
Storage 500 GB WD Black SN750 SE NVMe SSD + 4 TB WD Red Plus WD40EFPX HDD
Display(s) 55-inch LG G3 OLED
Case Pichau Mancer CV500 White Edition
Power Supply EVGA 1300 G2 1.3kW 80+ Gold
Mouse Microsoft Classic Intellimouse
Keyboard Galax Stealth STL-03
Software Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC 24H2
Benchmark Scores I pulled a Qiqi~
Disabling CPB is AMD's equivalent of disabling Turbo Boost and running exclusively at base clock. It's just not so apparent when base clock is as high as it is for Zen 4 (4.7GHz).

Not sure where this silver bullet idea comes from. Literally nobody does this. You don't buy a 12700K to run it at 3.6GHz either.

All I see here is that the aggressive power limiting and undervolting practices for 5800X and 5800X3D are about to become the inevitable norm, for all Zen 4 owners.

AMD is clearly pushing the envelope of N5 hard. 4.7GHz for 1681pt is an appreciable step up in IPC but not much at all over Zen 3 (~4.85GHz for 1600pt), although the temps and power are an impressive demonstration of V-F curve on N5 (I/O die and Fabric still take a chunk of power, out of the Package Power). Doesn't sound like AGESA is ready yet.

They still are relying on pushing clockspeed to get the performance they want. Every time they've done this, the launch processors don't clock up to expectations. Hopefully not the case this time.

I'd go as far as saying the AGESA for Zen 3 isn't ready yet... the blasted EDC bug has been grilling my rig hard
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
186 (0.05/day)
After thinking a while about the posted CBr23 screenshots, we don't even know what the ambient temps were. Cooling solution could the the most crappy Dell stock cooler for all we know, which can barely handle 95W.

But the the 92.1°C temp. I think it must be the single core CBr23 run temp. But it could also be the temp from a Prime 95 single core run, which gets every CPU very hot since you just hit one core with insane loads.
The 110W are likely from the all core Cinebench run. And the temperature at all core load is usually way lower then the single core run temperature. The conclusion is drawn from my Zen 2 and Zen 3 CPUs. Even the R5 3600 behaves in that way.
The 5.45GHz boost could even be the idling boost when CBr23 switches from the multicore test to the single core test. We know these are all the max values, so no reset has been done on HWinfo between the single core and multi core runs.
The score are especially unreliable, since there is variance. HWinfo takes away quite some points from the Single core result, and that is assuming the Windows scheduler didn't throw around the single core load on all cores, which can still happen.
Multi core should be more reliable, but still only one score we see.

@AusWolf I get your concern about the high temperature. But keep in mind, it is most likely under heavy single core load. All core should be much lower. The CPUs are also designed to run at these temps, others already mentioned the heat density you get with these tiny Zen4 cores compared to the relatively large Alder Lake cores.

@phanbuey could you please post the power draw of you 12600K to your Cinebench R23 scores? Not really relevant as comparison, since we don't know anything about cooling, roomtemp or silly stuff running in the background of the 7600X. But i am curious :)
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Messages
202 (0.27/day)
Mine is on water temp as i have a temp sensor in the loop with a USB aqua computer device.

Remember i have 6 120mm fans on two 360 radiators, so they can run very slow and quiet without really compromising the cooling.

Also my GPU is in the loop too, less than 50c gaming, which is very nice.
 
Joined
Nov 9, 2020
Messages
57 (0.04/day)
I wonder what cooler they used. I don't like that 92.1 °C with only 110 W one bit. :wtf: This is why I hated the R5 3600 that I gave away after a week or so. Either the IHS design hasn't improved despite the switch to LGA, or chiplets will always run hot. :(
110w is easy to cool on ambient

what can be improved with change from PGA to LGA? its just copper block. Zen is manufactured on smaller node, so its denser => harder to cool
 
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
789 (0.56/day)
What cooling is needed for 60.2 W peak?
13003 is mediocre for 4.7GHz which is the base clock and not stressing out the silicon at all.
If you stress a low end 5600 non-X at 4.6GHz it achieves around 11990 so the IPC gain is around 6.2% not 9%.
I'm not suggesting that the IPC claim that AMD made was wrong just that it doesn't substantiated in this result and maybe with a newer BIOS will show a little bit better performance.
Still even if with a newer BIOS achieves the 9% IPC increase, 13600K/KF will be around +50% faster in apps that scale well with core count like some rendering or media encoding apps.
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
7,273 (1.75/day)
For IPC claims you need to have fixed clocks, none of the leaked benchmarks are really showing "IPC" difference.
 
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
789 (0.56/day)
7600X (105W TDP/142W PPT) has 4.7GHz base which means if the cooling is adequate it achieves at least 4.7GHz in 99.9% of apps.
If the tester didn't change something in the settings the processor logically would be hitting at least the advertised base in an app like CB23 since it had 56 °C and 60.2W peak and the cooling system was a dual-fan AIO kit...
So at best case 6.2% IPC increase.

"According to the HWINFO output, the CPU runs relatively cool at 56 °C and 60.2W peak, while core clock is somewhere in 4.7 GHz range"
 
Joined
Jul 20, 2022
Messages
72 (0.09/day)
That score is incredibly impressive, but it also is a golden sample 12900K that went through an extreme amount of fine tuning and memory tuning.
This is as close as you can reasonably get to the theoretical performance per Watt ceiling of Alder Lake's P-cores in a desktop environment.
Yet it still doesn't even begin to touch the performance per watt efficiency of the 7600X's 60 W score.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
3,275 (2.14/day)
System Name Mean machine
Processor 12900k
Motherboard MSI Unify X
Cooling Noctua U12A
Memory 7600c34
Video Card(s) 4090 Gamerock oc
Storage 980 pro 2tb
Display(s) Samsung crg90
Case Fractal Torent
Audio Device(s) Hifiman Arya / a30 - d30 pro stack
Power Supply Be quiet dark power pro 1200
Mouse Viper ultimate
Keyboard Blackwidow 65%
That score is incredibly impressive, but it also is a golden sample 12900K that went through an extreme amount of fine tuning and memory tuning.
This is as close as you can reasonably get to the theoretical performance per Watt ceiling of Alder Lake's P-cores in a desktop environment.
Yet it still doesn't even begin to touch the performance per watt efficiency of the 7600X's 60 W score.
No, not really, my pretty mediocre 12900k can get 12700 score at 54.1 watts, beating the 7600x handily in efficiency.

Efficiency SHOULD be compared watt normalized btw, you can't say X cpu at 50 watts is more efficient than Y cpu at 200 watts.
 
Joined
Jul 20, 2022
Messages
72 (0.09/day)
No, not really, my pretty mediocre 12900k can get 12700 score at 54.1 watts, beating the 7600x handily in efficiency.

Efficiency SHOULD be compared watt normalized btw, you can't say X cpu at 50 watts is more efficient than Y cpu at 200 watts.
Madness' 12900K was using only 6 P-cores, all other cores were disabled.
Efficiency was compared at the same core/thread count between finely tuned Alder Lake P-cores and the Zen 4 cores in the OP.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
3,275 (2.14/day)
System Name Mean machine
Processor 12900k
Motherboard MSI Unify X
Cooling Noctua U12A
Memory 7600c34
Video Card(s) 4090 Gamerock oc
Storage 980 pro 2tb
Display(s) Samsung crg90
Case Fractal Torent
Audio Device(s) Hifiman Arya / a30 - d30 pro stack
Power Supply Be quiet dark power pro 1200
Mouse Viper ultimate
Keyboard Blackwidow 65%
Madness' 12900K was using only 6 P-cores, all other cores were disabled.
Efficiency was compared at the same core/thread count between finely tuned Alder Lake P-cores and the Zen 4 cores in the OP.
Yeah, im talking about 6/12 as well. 6/12 GC cores at 54w score 12700.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2022
Messages
89 (0.12/day)
Location
Italy
Processor Intel Core i7-5960X
Motherboard MSI X99S SLI PLUS
Memory Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 4x8GB
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GTX 1070 TI 8GB
Storage Sandisk Ultra II 240GB + HDD
Display(s) Benq GL2480 24" 1080p 75 Hz
Power Supply Seasonic M12II 520W
Mouse Logitech G400
Software Windows 10 LTSC
I like small form factor builds. If a CPU runs hot on a test bench, or in a tower case with adequate airflow, then it will definitely throttle in a SFF system.
I wouldn't be so drastic. We don't know the pc specs of the guy who took those screenshots and what cooler was used. We don't even know if those scores are real or fake.

That said, a cpu can go near its tjmax only in rendering-like tasks, where all threads are pushed to 100% for several minutes, and only if the cpu cooler is not good for the job, or if it's overclocked with extreme voltage. But, who would use a +5GHz 12threads cpu for rendering in a shoe-box case?
Assuming you would buy that cpu, you would pair it with a proper air or AIO cooler and in gaming, or moving millions poligons in ZBrush, you won't ever come close to its tjmax, even inside a small case. So throttling won't be a problem for sure for a regular user (gaming, movies, graphics, internet, CAD, etc.).

All AMD cpus, at stock speeds can be undervolted by a good margin, and can be overclocked and undervolted at the same time. So if someone wants to use a so powerful cpu in a SFF closed case, he can tune it to whatever he needs and even use it as a workstation, assuming that he knows where to put his hands.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
11,055 (5.40/day)
Location
Midlands, UK
System Name Nebulon B
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard MSi PRO B650M-A WiFi
Cooling be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Memory 2x 24 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR5-4800
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 6750 XT 12 GB
Storage 2 TB Corsair MP600 GS, 2 TB Corsair MP600 R2, 4 + 8 TB Seagate Barracuda 3.5"
Display(s) Dell S3422DWG, 7" Waveshare touchscreen
Case Kolink Citadel Mesh black
Audio Device(s) Logitech Z333 2.1 speakers, AKG Y50 headphones
Power Supply Seasonic Prime GX-750
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2S
Keyboard Logitech G413 SE
Software Windows 10 Pro
They made the surface area of their IHS too small.

The amount of heat you can x-fer, all else being equal, is going to be directly proportional to the surface area you have to transfer it through. I couldn't find the actual numbers on a quick search, but from visuals Intel's LGA 1700 chips have probably 1/3 to 1/2 more surface area for the IHS. This means they can transfer 1/3 to 1/2 more 'power' as heat provided the cooling solution can dissipate it.
That is probably the best explanation there is. No wonder the cooler's heatsink was cold to the touch on the 3600 even after several remounts, while it's reasonably warm on the 11700. Intel's IHS can transfer heat a lot better. I was hoping AMD would fix this for AM5, but it doesn't look like it so far.

I wouldn't be so drastic. We don't know the pc specs of the guy who took those screenshots and what cooler was used. We don't even know if those scores are real or fake.

That said, a cpu can go near its tjmax only in rendering-like tasks, where all threads are pushed to 100% for several minutes, and only if the cpu cooler is not good for the job, or if it's overclocked with extreme voltage. But, who would use a +5GHz 12threads cpu for rendering in a shoe-box case?
Assuming you would buy that cpu, you would pair it with a proper air or AIO cooler and in gaming, or moving millions poligons in ZBrush, you won't ever come close to its tjmax, even inside a small case. So throttling won't be a problem for sure for a regular user (gaming, movies, graphics, internet, CAD, etc.).

All AMD cpus, at stock speeds can be undervolted by a good margin, and can be overclocked and undervolted at the same time. So if someone wants to use a so powerful cpu in a SFF closed case, he can tune it to whatever he needs and even use it as a workstation, assuming that he knows where to put his hands.
That's the thing... I'm sure Zen 4 will do well in a standard chassis with a "proper cooler" as you said. I also know you can de-tune any CPU if you want to use it in a small form factor case with low airflow. The question is, by how much. My problem with the 3600 was that it couldn't even keep its factory default 88 W PPT without reaching throttling temps in my scenario (link in my signature), while as with the 11700, I could increase PL1 up to around 120-130 Watts.

Oh, and of course I don't want to render with a SFF PC. :) I only use Cinebench as a test to make sure it can withstand every reasonable task in all circumstances.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
9,340 (5.67/day)
Location
Louisiana
System Name Ghetto Rigs z490|x99|Acer 17 Nitro 7840hs/ 5600c40-2x16/ 4060/ 1tb acer stock m.2/ 4tb sn850x
Processor 10900k w/Optimus Foundation | 5930k w/Black Noctua D15
Motherboard z490 Maximus XII Apex | x99 Sabertooth
Cooling oCool D5 res-combo/280 GTX/ Optimus Foundation/ gpu water block | Blk D15
Memory Trident-Z Royal 4000c16 2x16gb | Trident-Z 3200c14 4x8gb
Video Card(s) Titan Xp-water | evga 980ti gaming-w/ air
Storage 970evo+500gb & sn850x 4tb | 860 pro 256gb | Acer m.2 1tb/ sn850x 4tb| Many2.5" sata's ssd 3.5hdd's
Display(s) 1-AOC G2460PG 24"G-Sync 144Hz/ 2nd 1-ASUS VG248QE 24"/ 3rd LG 43" series
Case D450 | Cherry Entertainment center on Test bench
Audio Device(s) Built in Realtek x2 with 2-Insignia 2.0 sound bars & 1-LG sound bar
Power Supply EVGA 1000P2 with APC AX1500 | 850P2 with CyberPower-GX1325U
Mouse Redragon 901 Perdition x3
Keyboard G710+x3
Software Win-7 pro x3 and win-10 & 11pro x3
Benchmark Scores Are in the benchmark section
Hi,
I just call it a heat spreader with solder which is why once both are removed from in the way bare die sees a good drop in temps screw z height :cool:
 
Joined
Nov 9, 2020
Messages
57 (0.04/day)
That is probably the best explanation there is. No wonder the cooler's heatsink was cold to the touch on the 3600 even after several remounts, while it's reasonably warm on the 11700. Intel's IHS can transfer heat a lot better. I was hoping AMD would fix this for AM5, but it doesn't look like it so far.


That's the thing... I'm sure Zen 4 will do well in a standard chassis with a "proper cooler" as you said. I also know you can de-tune any CPU if you want to use it in a small form factor case with low airflow. The question is, by how much. My problem with the 3600 was that it couldn't even keep its factory default 88 W PPT without reaching throttling temps in my scenario (link in my signature), while as with the 11700, I could increase PL1 up to around 120-130 Watts.

Oh, and of course I don't want to render with a SFF PC. :) I only use Cinebench as a test to make sure it can withstand every reasonable task in all circumstances.
they cant fix it .. only if they used more dies with more dummy cores... if chiplet is small, you can have ihs, but the heat ll get transfered to an extend just through hot spot like on image :)
 

Attachments

  • skica.png
    skica.png
    11 KB · Views: 62
Joined
Sep 18, 2017
Messages
198 (0.08/day)
Because voltage is a one size fits all approach when the chips leave the factory. You may be lucky enough to acquire a quality bin for which a lower voltage will not only potentially boost performance, but drop temperatures
I dont see binning making that big of a difference with heat, but higher mhz. The temps will still get high but you will have longer sustained boost with better chips. The longer boost will keep temps higher unless you lower frequency.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
11,055 (5.40/day)
Location
Midlands, UK
System Name Nebulon B
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard MSi PRO B650M-A WiFi
Cooling be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Memory 2x 24 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR5-4800
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 6750 XT 12 GB
Storage 2 TB Corsair MP600 GS, 2 TB Corsair MP600 R2, 4 + 8 TB Seagate Barracuda 3.5"
Display(s) Dell S3422DWG, 7" Waveshare touchscreen
Case Kolink Citadel Mesh black
Audio Device(s) Logitech Z333 2.1 speakers, AKG Y50 headphones
Power Supply Seasonic Prime GX-750
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2S
Keyboard Logitech G413 SE
Software Windows 10 Pro
they cant fix it .. only if they used more dies with more dummy cores... if chiplet is small, you can have ihs, but the heat ll get transfered to an extend just through hot spot like on image :)
Then maybe as good the chiplet design is for yields, it's just as bad for heat transfer?
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
11,055 (5.40/day)
Location
Midlands, UK
System Name Nebulon B
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard MSi PRO B650M-A WiFi
Cooling be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Memory 2x 24 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR5-4800
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 6750 XT 12 GB
Storage 2 TB Corsair MP600 GS, 2 TB Corsair MP600 R2, 4 + 8 TB Seagate Barracuda 3.5"
Display(s) Dell S3422DWG, 7" Waveshare touchscreen
Case Kolink Citadel Mesh black
Audio Device(s) Logitech Z333 2.1 speakers, AKG Y50 headphones
Power Supply Seasonic Prime GX-750
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2S
Keyboard Logitech G413 SE
Software Windows 10 Pro
yes .. smaller area cost less to manufacture, but also smaller area can transfer less heat :)
Then I really don't understand why users praise chiplets so much, considering that the end product costs the same as traditional, monolithic CPUs. It's only AMD's gain, not ours.
 
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7,762 (2.91/day)
Location
Back in Norway
System Name Hotbox
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory 32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s) PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage 2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s) Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software Windows 10 Pro
That's flatly false. Surface area matters. The only other thing they can control is the materials which affects the heat transfer coefficient.

Think about the logical conclusion of what you just said. Can you transfer just as much heat through 1 square millimeter as 100 square millimeters?

Well yes you can - all else being equal, the temperature difference between the two surfaces would need to be 100 times greater to transfer the same heat.

Q = h A ΔT

Q = the rate of heat transfer

h = convection heat transfer coefficient

A = the exposed surface area, and

ΔT = the difference in temperature
You're misapplying your logic here. The surface area of the IHS is of ... well, at least tertiary importance, to its thickness and the size of the heat generating area of the die (assuming good-to-perfect core-to-IHS transfer etc). Heat is transferred most efficiently at high thermal deltas, meaning that as heat dissipates out through the IHS, it does a gradually worse job of moving further into the heatsink, as temperatures drop rapidly as you move out from the spot on the IHS directly above the core. The area directly above the core is always the most crucially important for cooling the core, as that is where the vast majority of thermal transfer into the cooler will take place. The rest of the IHS obviously helps, but increasing its size would see very low returns as the distance from those parts of the IHS to the core would increase. Remember: assuming a similarly sized heat source and the same thermal transfer between the two, your 1 square millimeter IHS will be much hotter than your 100 square millimeter one. And, of course, that example is ridiculous - we wouldn't be talking something like a 100x size increase, but maybe going from ~40x40mm (1600 mm²) to 45x45 (2025mm²) or maybe 50x50 (2500mm²). Those are 27% and 56% increases, all of which would be relatively far from the core, as the cores already have plenty of coverage from the current IHS design. So, while a larger IHS would likely have some beneficial effects, overall it would be very small as long as the heat source remained the same. You would need the IHS to be much, much larger - and also thicker, to aid in the IHS heating up more evenly - for this to have a meaningful effect. But even then it would come into conflict with other factors that would most likely diminish this effect significantly, such as thicker IHSes generally doing a worse job of transferring heat to the cooler - you want the thermal energy to have as short a path as possible to the cooler, after all.

The reason why Zen3 (and to some extent Zen2, and likely Zen4) runs hot is not because its IHS is too small, but because its core is very small, and its thermal density is thus very high. This means the IHS struggles more to effectively transfer said heat to the heatsink, but a larger IHS wouldn't alleviate that in any meaningful way. A thinner IHS could (though too thin and it becomes less efficient at horizontal thermal transfer, counteracting this effect somewhat), as could improved die-to-IHS bonds - or direct-die cooling.

Heck, this is the reason why cooling a 300W GPU is relatively simple - and can be done with even a 120mm AIO and a reasonably powerful fan - while cooling a 300W CPU is near impossible: GPUs spread their heat evenly across a large die and don't have IHSes, while CPUs have very small cores and have IHSes to protect them.

The only reasonable way of improving this is to improve the IHS materials. I've been speculating for years already if we'll ever see vapor chamber IHSes, and IMO that's not unlikely the way thermal density is going. Obviously it won't be trivial to make such a thing in a way that would survive the mounting pressure of a cooler on top of it, but it would be doable. And, of course, it would significantly increase BOM costs for CPUs.

(All of this is also of course dependent on the cold plate design of the cooler - an IHS is essentially necessary on any direct heatpipe contact HSF, as otherwise you risk the heat generating cores contacting just one heatpipe, which would lead to terrible cooling overall. On the other hand, a HSF with a soldered cold plate, or a water cooler with a finned cold plate, would cool far better without an IHS than with it.)

Then I really don't understand why users praise chiplets so much, considering that the end product costs the same as traditional, monolithic CPUs. It's only AMD's gain, not ours.
It's only due to chiplets that we actually get 6 or 8 cores at reasonable prices though - through going this route, AMD has forced Intel to cut into its production margins significantly. Before chiplets, we had 4c4t and 4c8t CPUs in the ~$150-400 range for nearly a decade, while now we get 6C CPUs for less than $200. That's a major value improvement no matter how you look at it.

Of course, per-die costs are a pretty small part of a CPU's price overall - don't they generally hover in the upper double digits range at most?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
10 (0.00/day)
I like small form factor builds. If a CPU runs hot on a test bench, or in a tower case with adequate airflow, then it will definitely throttle in a SFF system.
Not necessarily true. I've seen bench runs of a 5950x running hot, but I've successfully ran one on PBO in a meshilicious. Temps were kept under 80 even with a 6900xt sitting next to it. It depends on the SFF setup. The NZXT 200 with the same setup would overheat quickly, and that's a larger case.

What I'm more interested in is how this story is handled in comparison to Intel chips. Almost all the performance claims you see published are on core performance boost, because the Intel chips need it to be competitive..... but I don't see stories like this about those? (For those at home, I'm being rhetiorical, it's well known that tech journalism has morphed into an extension of marketing and Intel spends quite a bit there). I personally don't care which company I buy, though. I pick the best product for my use.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
10,471 (1.71/day)
Location
Austin Texas
Processor 13700KF Undervolted @ 5.4, 4.8Ghz Ring 190W PL1
Motherboard MSI 690-I PRO
Cooling Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 w/ Arctic P12 Fans
Memory 48 GB DDR5 7600 MHZ CL36
Video Card(s) RTX 4090 FE
Storage 2x 2TB WDC SN850, 1TB Samsung 960 prr
Display(s) Alienware 32" 4k 240hz OLED
Case SLIGER S620
Audio Device(s) Yes
Power Supply Corsair SF750
Mouse Xlite V2
Keyboard RoyalAxe
Software Windows 11
Benchmark Scores They're pretty good, nothing crazy.
After thinking a while about the posted CBr23 screenshots, we don't even know what the ambient temps were. Cooling solution could the the most crappy Dell stock cooler for all we know, which can barely handle 95W.

But the the 92.1°C temp. I think it must be the single core CBr23 run temp. But it could also be the temp from a Prime 95 single core run, which gets every CPU very hot since you just hit one core with insane loads.
The 110W are likely from the all core Cinebench run. And the temperature at all core load is usually way lower then the single core run temperature. The conclusion is drawn from my Zen 2 and Zen 3 CPUs. Even the R5 3600 behaves in that way.
The 5.45GHz boost could even be the idling boost when CBr23 switches from the multicore test to the single core test. We know these are all the max values, so no reset has been done on HWinfo between the single core and multi core runs.
The score are especially unreliable, since there is variance. HWinfo takes away quite some points from the Single core result, and that is assuming the Windows scheduler didn't throw around the single core load on all cores, which can still happen.
Multi core should be more reliable, but still only one score we see.

@AusWolf I get your concern about the high temperature. But keep in mind, it is most likely under heavy single core load. All core should be much lower. The CPUs are also designed to run at these temps, others already mentioned the heat density you get with these tiny Zen4 cores compared to the relatively large Alder Lake cores.

@phanbuey could you please post the power draw of you 12600K to your Cinebench R23 scores? Not really relevant as comparison, since we don't know anything about cooling, roomtemp or silly stuff running in the background of the 7600X. But i am curious :)
Single :
singlescore.png



Multi:
multiscore.png
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,688 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
Then I really don't understand why users praise chiplets so much, considering that the end product costs the same as traditional, monolithic CPUs. It's only AMD's gain, not ours.

If AMD were doing monolithic designs, to maintain their profit margin they would have to charge far more - or, they'd have to shrink their profit margin and charge the same vs monolithic.

It also allows them to scale up core count greatly, without the big negative impact to yield that the larger monolithic dies have. This is a huge advantage in servers chips in cost, as well as configurability.

But from a pure performance perspective, all else being equal there's no advantage, just the opposite. Look at how long it took them to beat skylake 14nm @ 36MT/mm2 using TSMC N7 @98 MT/mm2.

Now they are on a high power N5 node @ 127MT/mm2 vs Intel 7 92MT/mm2 and based on what I've seen, maybe match up well against Alder Lake in 1T while losing a bit in MT - but not against Rocket Lake.

Intel's real performance issue is not in client, it's really in server where they can't scale up to as many cores as those chiplets can do (Yet).
 
Top