General Cryptocoin Discussion

[RandallFlagg]

That is true until they implement something like cash scanners that record the serial numbers on the bills. Stores that have self-checkout already have machines that take bills & scan for their authenticity. Its just a matter of swapping the machines out or upgrading them to read the serials. I wonder how many duplicate bills will show up across the country, heh.

Maybe if they do, but they still don't know who used the bill or how the person got the bill necessarily. Now I'm not the kind of person who tries to go anon with cash on all my purchases, but you can if you want.

However, lets say bitcoin became a true 2nd currency. If my neighbor goes to home depot and buys a lawnmower with bitcoin and I see them come back with it, I can look and narrow down the possible wallets he has. I can do this a few more times and then identify his wallet. Then I can go see every person he has ever interacted with using bitcoin. If crypto were to become like real money as some want, this would happen, it wouldn't be hard.

People would probably start making lists of wallet - person relationships. You may find that some percentage of your bitcoin was used in crime, maybe you weren't involved, but it can be seized. Keep thinking this through and I think you'll come to the conclusion that crypto is trash.

 

[Outback Bronze]

Then I can go see every person he has ever interacted with using bitcoin.

Is Facebook any different? Its a public system just like a public ledger. Given, FB you don't need to post where you have been.

A lot of cash/cards get stolen. Here in Australia PayPass is the biggest issue with theft. We have $200 dollar limits now so thieves go around spending $200 in each store as fast as they can or more recently they will just buy a heap of gift cards which is the quickest for them. They can try and exchange it for cash but generally the store will ask for the card (where the money came from) in order to get the refund. I suppose if you find out somebody's debit card pin number they are in real trouble at any ATM.

Now, how do we get around this? Well for one a finger print ID would be nice but how on a credit card? Maybe a small solar panel like a simple solar calculator? Doesn't need to be big but will that drive up the cost of the Credit Card fees from banks? I'm unsure if cash will be able to to any of this.

So what happens when people get their own cash out from the bank. Well, anything goes.

Or what about a blockchain public ledger? Your key is yours. Similar to like a Credit card and still has a finger print ID so cant be handed around. Nobody can use it. You can even pay tradies on site with it. Its attached to you. Unfortunately I'm probably going down the road of a chip that's inserted some where in the body that matches up with it.

Have I missed anything? Probably lots.

We are entering the virtual digital world. Its probably only a matter of time before its starts going mainstream. All you need to do it look at CBCD's the way its heading.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Is Facebook any different? Its a public system just like a public ledger. Given, FB you don't need to post where you have been.

A lot of cash/cards get stolen. Here in Australia PayPass is the biggest issue with theft. We have $200 dollar limits now so thieves go around spending $200 in each store as fast as they can or more recently they will just buy a heap of gift cards which is the quickest for them. They can try and exchange it for cash but generally the store will ask for the card (where the money came from) in order to get the refund. I suppose if you find out somebody's debit card pin number they are in real trouble at any ATM.

Now, how do we get around this? Well for one a finger print ID would be nice but how on a credit card? Maybe a small solar panel like a simple solar calculator? Doesn't need to be big but will that drive up the cost of the Credit Card fees from banks? I'm unsure if cash will be able to to any of this.

So what happens when people get their own cash out from the bank. Well, anything goes.

Or what about a blockchain public ledger? Your key is yours. Similar to like a Credit card and still has a finger print ID so cant be handed around. Nobody can use it. You can even pay tradies on site with it. Its attached to you. Unfortunately I'm probably going down the road of a chip that's inserted some where in the body that matches up with it.

Have I missed anything? Probably lots.

We are entering the virtual digital world. Its probably only a matter of time before its starts going mainstream. All you need to do it look at CBCD's the way its heading.

Well, I'm not really talking about how easy it is to 'steal'. That's a different subject.

Think about the scenario I outlined with a theoretical neighbor using something like bitcoin. Criminals could use information on a person's habits to blackmail them, time a heist, or simply know when to ransack their house. Governments could use it for even more nefarious purposes, and employers could too.

And those records, they *never* go away, it's *part* of the currency itself. So if you went to a porn shop 5 years ago and paid in bitcoin, there's still a record of that attached to the bitcoin, and as long as that coin exists it will have that record. The bitcoin itself would have to be deleted, which can't happen.

If people understood how vulnerable crypto is to privacy invasion, I don't think they'd consider it.

 

[Outback Bronze]

Well, I'm not really talking about how easy it is to 'steal'. That's a different subject.

Yes true, but you were implying how crypto is trash, where I was simply giving you an instance where "cash" is trash.

You are definitely putting forward some interesting points I agree, but crypto or the current system isn't going to stop any deceitful criminal from ransacking your house.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Yes true, but you were implying how crypto is trash, where I was simply giving you an instance where "cash" is trash.

You are definitely putting forward some interesting points I agree, but crypto or the current system isn't going to stop any deceitful criminal from ransacking your house.

It won't stop them but it sure can make it easier. Say if I live near you, don't know you, but I know your wallet. Suddenly your wallet has transactions in a nightclub in the Bahamas. I can probably figure out that you're not home.

But this type of information, can be used for all kinds of purposes. It would be easy to weaponize in a myriad of ways, whether that is to smear political opponents, get someone fired, ruin a career, destroy a business, or simply time a heist.

 

[R-T-B]

However, lets say bitcoin became a true 2nd currency. If my neighbor goes to home depot and buys a lawnmower with bitcoin and I see them come back with it, I can look and narrow down the possible wallets he has. I can do this a few more times and then identify his wallet. Then I can go see every person he has ever interacted with using bitcoin.

No, because bitcoin automatically generates a new wallet address for each transaction unless you are doing something to override it.

Look up "change addresses." This whole idea is pretty far fetched.

 

[Outback Bronze]

No, because bitcoin automatically generates a new wallet address for each transaction unless you are doing something to override it.

Look up "change addresses." This whole idea is pretty far fetched.

Was going to mention something like this. Could you say its like/similar to a Dynamic IP address?

 

[dragontamer5788]

Texas paid this company to mine bitcoin during an ongoing energy crisis

Meanwhile, Texans are paying 50% more in electricity costs compared to last year.

www.pcgamer.com

if you don't find this hilarious you're dead inside

Hmmmm...

Grid stability by "turning off your usage of electricity in a predictable fashion" is actually really useful though. The goal is to encourage things like chiller-towers (use Air-conditioning at night to cool a tower of water), and then during the daytime, use the "stored coolness" to provide the "cold" needed to run say... a Hockey Match. By paying companies to "shift the time-usage of electricity", you really do create a more environmentally friendly grid.

It makes sense that BTC-mining would benefit from these laws. I think the "evil" of letting BTC benefit from this is a relatively small concern, because there's too many other legitimate uses of this particular law.

 

[Outback Bronze]

Looks like its starting to happen down under.

RBA to Explore CBDC Use Cases in Australia via Research Pilot (blockworks.co)

 

[lexluthermiester]

Looks like its starting to happen down under.

RBA to Explore CBDC Use Cases in Australia via Research Pilot (blockworks.co)

That is a far-cry from being cryptocoin. The only things they have in common is that they are both digital "currency".

 

[Outback Bronze]

That is a far-cry from being cryptocoin. The only things they have in common is that they are both digital "currency".

Well, I wonder where it stems from matey?

 

[lexluthermiester]

Well, I wonder where it stems from matey?

What do you mean?

 

[Outback Bronze]

What do you mean?

I mean CBDC stem from Cryptocurrencies. Also, its a good chance that CBDC's would use Cryptography for wallets.

Where else am I gona post this? Want me to make a separate thread on CBDC's? I just thought it would be relevant to this thread as a general discussion on digital coins.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I mean CBDC stem from Cryptocurrencies. Also, its a good chance that CBDC's would use Cryptography for wallets.

Maybe, but we're not talking about blockchain that is mined. More encrypted tokens that are generated in series. Similar but different process.

Where else am I gona post this? Want me to make a separate thread on CBDC's? I just thought it would be relevant to this thread as a general discussion on digital coins.

It's all good, no worries.

 

[Outback Bronze]

Maybe, but we're not talking about blockchain that is mined. More encrypted tokens that are generated in series. Similar but different process.

It's all good, no worries.

Thanks.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Since we have quite a few Australians here, it's interesting to note that Avocado's were a better investment than Bitcoin for the past 3 years (Aus is a major exporter) :

 

[fiifvdfuh9]

Okay so, concerning mining, apart from the classic ways of mining, there's a crypto project WEIcrypto that'll have a service that works like a cash-back. Basically, you'll be able to mine coins just by buying goods using their wallet. And I'm pretty sure there are other interesting ways of mining coin, without actually putting a lot of effort I'm doing a research of projects that allow alternative mining and it can really be someone's university thesis

 

[dragontamer5788]

Bitcoin, Ethereum and a few other crypto tokens (I don't like calling them crypto currencies) have been accepted as valid payment by some merchants although support has fluctuated on and off over the years (Tesla Motors stopped doing this for example).

The far more interesting aspect has been the blockchain technology itself -- not crypto tokens as an end product.

Replying here, since the other topic was price-discussions.

I never understood what people meant by "blockchain technology". There's multiple aspects to this.

* Merkle Trees are a decades-old structure implemented in SSL / TLS, and serves as the root-of-trust algorithm behind certificate trust. The reason why we can send credit-card numbers online is because the "https" (secure HTTP) protocol encrypts our data and sends it around using this trust. This aspect of "blockchain technology" isn't new at all.

* Miners and validators, are the new part. But seemingly have no use or application.

The issue with public/private key infrastructure is "how do you trust a public key" ?? This is currently "solved" with certificates, which have all sorts of issues. In particular, something needs to be serving the root of all trust, these roots of trusts (called Certificate Authorities) underpin the very security of the internet, and have done so for the last 3+ decades.

Bitcoin/Proof of Work changes the trust root to be the "longest chain". Its a different shaped Merkle tree, but ultimately its benefit is that there's no trust root like a Certificate Authority. There's only the blockchain itself, which needs to be maintained by a collection of computers hashing numbers forever more.

So as you can see, the only "blockchain technology" is the proof-of-work component of this. Hashes, public-key encryption, validation, offloading trust to another number... these cryptographic primitives have existed for decades. Each configuration (HTTPS / TLS / SSL, Kerberos, PGP, GPG, and yes, "Blockchain" / Proof of Work) all have their upsides and downsides. The fact remains simple: most people's cryptographic needs are served by TLS / SSL's model of certificate authorities. Those that aren't are likely served by PGP/GPG's model of email security.

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Blockchain / Proof of Work / Proof of Stake, makes an economic argument for the root of trust, rather than a mathematical one. 51% attack won't happen, not because its impossible, but because its economically non-viable to do so. Therefore, its a much weaker cryptographic proof / security than the other systems I've talked about, and therefore not really comparable. How much do you really trust the economic argument?

 

[R-T-B]

Merkle Trees are a decades-old structure implemented in SSL / TLS, and serves as the root-of-trust algorithm behind certificate trust. The reason why we can send credit-card numbers online is because the "https" (secure HTTP) protocol encrypts our data and sends it around using this trust. This aspect of "blockchain technology" isn't new at all.

The use of it as a public ledger for things like currency and voting, or anything really of public record, is the new concept.

Miners and validators, are the new part. But seemingly have no use or application.

*sighs*

Not what I meant at all... was not even talking about mining.

So as you can see, the only "blockchain technology" is the proof-of-work component of this.

Proof Of Stake would like a word.

There are also other proof of * models. None of them have gained traction really but they exist. I am interested in Helium networks Proof Of Coverage model.

EDIT: I just realized my posts I thought I made were in the wrong thread, apologies for any confusion.

 

[dragontamer5788]

The use of it as a public ledger for things like currency and voting, or anything really of public record, is the new concept.

I'm not aware of any voting system being implemented on its own blockchain.

At best, it'd have to be some side-chain activity, like NFTs or whatever, possibly powered by say... Ethereum. And if its powered by Ethereum, all you're doing is introducing vulnerabilities to the proof-of-stake / economic argument. (51% attack suddenly becomes financially viable, because the value of changing votes exceeds that of the underlying blockchain).

Proof Of Stake would like a word.

Its just a different economic model, but also a fundamentally economic one rather than a true cryptographic proof like PGP / GPG / TLS / etc. etc

IE: A cryptographer would say, what if people attacked the system like X? And the cryptocoin defenders simply say "X won't happen because we have economic incentives against that". Which is... one way to continue the discussion, but its insufficient compared to the brutal proofs that typically have been carried in the cryptographic space. IMO anyway.

Blockchain isn't really an experiment with technology, as much as it is a societal experiment. You're hoping that the economic incentives remain aligned for the system to remain functioning. Its a very different kind of "technology", if you'd even call it that.

 

[R-T-B]

I'm not aware of any voting system being implemented on its own blockchain.

Really? Not to sound like a "do your own research" type... but google may help you here. It's been used with some success in third world elections in the last few years. Also, DAOs are basically run on the voting governance principle.

Kenyan Electoral Board Designs A Transparent Voting System That Mirrors The Bitcoin Blockchain

Kenyans held national elections on Tuesday, September 9, 2022, and the voting system closely mirrored the Bitcoin blockchain.

www.google.com

That's one I was thinking of, though hardly the prime example, as it's really just "inspired by". There are others I am certain but talk of "the merge" is drowning out my searches.

Of course, this idea has it's own issues:

New MIT Paper Roundly Rejects Blockchain Voting as Solution to Election Woes

An encryption inventor and the head of MIT’s Digital Currency Initiative are among authors of a new paper that points out why blockchain and voting are a bad pairing.

www.coindesk.com

I'm just saying if you think this is all there is, I really really doubt you.

 

[dragontamer5788]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...to-implement-a-transparent-voting-system/amp/

So they mirroed the BTC blockchain, but without any of the BTC miners that protect the BTC blockchain?

So someone who wanted to change the vote could just 51% attack the mirrored, smaller blockchain, with sufficient ASIC investment? That's an even worse idea than I even imagined. That sounds colossally stupid, frankly.

Smaller coins are getting 51% attacked / rug pulled all the time because they don't have the critical mass to reach PoW anymore. BTC works, economically speaking, because its the biggest. The most miners means that the cost of a 51% attack is highest. If you mirror the chain but implement your own miners, then anyone can just 51% attack you by having more miners than your private chain.

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No. I don't have knowledge of what happens all around the world. But I have a decent bit of cryptography knowledge, thanks to my college education + work experience (SSL / TLS / etc. etc. Online programming forces us to be good at cryptography primitives these days...). I have a decent nose for what is, or isn't, secure. Probably not as much as a real security expert, but enough to get by with modern programming.

 

[R-T-B]

I'm less concerned with the election argument or more concerned with the point that we are only touching the tip of the iceberg with the possibilities here.

Do yourself a favor and look into the Helium blockchain and the decentralized cell network they are building, as perhaps a more ideal example. I just know we are in an embryo stage here as far as development potential.

 

[dragontamer5788]

I'm less concerned with the election argument or more concerned with the point that we are only touching the tip of the iceberg with the possibilities here.

NVidia's CUDA was released in 2007. Apple's App store was released in 2008. OpenCL 1.0 was 2009.

"Bitcoin" and "blockchain" in general were invented in the same timeframe (January 2009). As you may know, the tech-world moves fast. Windows 8 was released, and effectively disproven as a concept in 2012. Microsoft Silverlight was 2007. Google Glass was released in 2013. Barnes and Noble's "Nook" reader 2009.

We've had plenty of time to figure out a good use of blockchain. The fact that it keeps getting propped up in seemingly only when interest-rates are near-zero% suggests that whatever good it does, its not much compared to other technologies we've developed since then. That's all I'm saying.

At some point, we need to regard "Blockchain finding a usecase" much like Cold Fusion or self-driving cars: its always "just a few years away", just believe in the technology harder and they'll deliver. Well... its been 14 years. I don't think they've delivered much yet. Entire other projects have been born and have died in this timespan. (Nook, Windows 8, Pebble Smartwatch, Google Glass, etc. etc.)

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If a good use of blockchain comes up, we'll adopt it then. But for now, its a solution looking for a problem. Much like Microsoft Kinect, or other interesting technologies. Don't get me wrong, I understand that in this world of technology we have lots of things that need to be invented before we learn how to use them. But... we've given a lot more attention to "blockchain" than many other technologies I had more hope for (augmented reality, Kinect, Silverlight, etc. etc.) at this point.

The only really good thing to come out of it, IMO, is GPU-compute, especially as the blockchain community researched and experimented with a lot of important GPU issues. (Nvidia / AMD of course are behind most of that innovation, but the programmer side of "how to use a GPU effectively" did come from blockchain, among other community members like HPC, Graphics, Video Gamers, and AI). Knowing which GPUs had strong integer / cryptographic performance was helpful for me in my GPU-compute research / experiments (and other communities focused more on double-precision or single-precision).

Will nothing ever come about of this technology? Well, I don't know that. But maybe something cool will be discovered with say, Microsoft Kinect technology, or a cool use of Nook e-readers too. there's a lot of technologies out there, and a singular obession with just one tech is somewhat unhealthy. We need to give enough time for concepts to develop, but also we need to move on and experiment with the other inventions that have been made.

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Lets put it this way. RISC-V was invented / released in 2010, a year after "Bitcoin/Blockchain". Which concept do you think has a brighter future? RISC-V or Blockchain? Which technology should you focus on as a engineer?

 

[lexluthermiester]

Lets put it this way. RISC-V was invented / released in 2010, a year after "Bitcoin/Blockchain". Which concept do you think has a brighter future? RISC-V or Blockchain? Which technology should you focus on as a engineer?

You can't be serious with that question. RISC-V.