AMD Cuts Down Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" Production As Demand Drops Like a Rock

[ModEl4]

I'm really 50%-50% as to if we are going to have 3 V-Cache models (7950X3D/7900X3D/7800X3D) or just 7800X3D.
If AMD increase the PPT of 7800X3D to 230W it will not have to make regression in frequency like in 5000 series case.
But even in this case (no actual frequency reduction) i don't see more than +18% in 720p and +12.5% in 1080p TPU testbed vs 7700X based on performance increase that V-Cache brought to 5000 series!
Cores and frequency doesn't help much Zen4 in gaming as you can see below and if we are going to see 7900X3D and 7950X3D probably there will be regression in actual clocks vs the regular 7950X/7900X models due to not having PPT increase.
So the gaming performance difference it will be nearly equivalent to 7800X3D (if 7800X3D actual clocks are similar to 7700X)
In a few days we are going to see the Raptor Lake results, but if for example 13700K/KF is 10% faster vs 12700K/KF in 720p (around 6.9% in 1080p) this means that in 1080p 13700K/KF will be just -5% (or even less) from 7800X3D on average!
13600K box street price ($329) is exactly what Intel recommends in their website, so partners can match Intel's RCP and this is the only part that Intel increased pricing in relation with 12th gen so far, so there is a reason partners to have low margins.
13700K/KF models have not seen an increase in price and also they are very competitive across the stack and probably will force for example 12900K to drop to 13700K level or less since 13700K will be a little bit faster (their RCP difference is $180, so the drop will be big).So partners regarding 13700K have not an incentive to play with such low margins as in i5 13600K's case but if reason arise (Zen4 V-Cache), they can sell 13700KF as low as $399!
Even if 7800X3D has only $100 SEP difference with 7700X, paying $100 more for 7800X3D vs 13700KF will just get you 5% (max) in 1080p average TPU results while if you use that $100 difference to upgrade to the next VGA tier (for example RX6750X->RX 6800 or 3070Ti->3080 10GB etc)
will get far superior gaming upgrade.
And all this without touching the motherboard/memory side cost options difference...
So AMD needs to drop prices all over, Zen4 V-Cache models won't save them if the pricing strategy doesn't change!

 

[ThrashZone]

reap what you sow, AMD!

Hi,
If there was a defense they did say nobody could afford bitchin high core chips long ago

 

[Chry]

In my country cheapest Zen4 + motherboard STARTS with 750 euros at the moment. How about cutting down prices instead of production?

 

[cvaldes]

In my country cheapest Zen4 + motherboard STARTS with 750 euros at the moment. How about cutting down prices instead of production?

Many expect prices to come down in time.

High prices for early adopters is very commonplace in the PC hardware industry though, not sure if you noticed that.

No one will know when prices will come down and certainly no one knows when prices will reach levels that you find acceptable (if ever). As always, you are free to spend your money elsewhere or not even spent it at all.

 

[Chry]

Many expect prices to come down in time.

High prices for early adopters is very commonplace in the PC hardware industry though, not sure if you noticed that.

No one will know when prices will come down and certainly no one knows when prices will reach levels that you find acceptable (if ever). As always, you are free to spend your money elsewhere or not even spent it at all.

I know I want Zen4, just not entirely sure if building desktop or buying laptop with Zen3.

 

[Tek-Check]

AMD should have ditched PCI-e 5.0 on B650 and released them along with X670 on day 1, not to mention that everything bellow 7950X should have been $50 lower.
The other thing they could have done, was make only the B650E DDR5, while B650 should have stayed with DDR4.
Releasing 3D CPUs on day 1 would have helped as well.

It does not work like that, I am afraid.
B650 boards are PCIe 4.0 and B650E are PCIe 5.0
There is AM4 platform for those wishing to carry on with DDR4. You need to cut somewhere.
They cannot release 3D SKUs on day one due to development cycle.

as long as performance is 30% better with ray tracing off in majority of games, I'd be happy to be $899... that's about my max though... maybe $999 if they have some cool new feature like DLSS3 they reveal November 3rd.

Otherwise I will be going with the $799 (I assume) the non-xt variant will go for if the XT variant went for $999.

DP 2.1 and PCIe 5.0, none of which of offered by more expensive Nvidia cards.

 

[Raiden85]

Problem is the boards, CPU prices are very decent. If the boards weren't an absolute rip-off then maybe they would sell more chips. An Asus X670 Hero costs much more than my X570 Formula did with a water block.

 

[cvaldes]

I know I want Zen4, just not entirely sure if building desktop or buying laptop with Zen3.

I hate to break it to you but you're not going to get Zen 4 when you buy a Zen 3 laptop.

To get Zen 4, you need to put it in a desktop build or buy a notebook PC with the Zen 4 processor installed. There's no practical way to make a generational CPU upgrade the way today's notebook PCs are designed and manufactured. You won't be able to put a Zen 4 CPU in that Zen 3 laptop.

 

[Haile Selassie]

well AMD stock is tanking, and Intel stock is rising, and I was going to buy AMD before the integrated graphics, but now am buying Raptor Lake, so I guess Intel's model of giving the customer options instead of forcing one way or the other is working. who knew business was so easy?

Intel stock is rising?

All stocks are tanking, with the saddest hero being NVIDIA.

 

[ARF]

Problem is the boards, CPU prices are very decent. If the boards weren't an absolute rip-off then maybe they would sell more chips. An Asus X670 Hero costs much more than my X570 Formula did with a water block.

CPU prices can be lowered because AMD increases its relative profit margins by the minute, while the boards are built with PCIe 5.0 components which add to the bill-of-materials and that cost is shifted to you, as an end customer.
Tell AMD to get rid of the consumer PCIe 5.0, no one will use it anyways.

 

[Tek-Check]

CPU prices can be lowered because AMD increases its relative profit margins by the minute, while the boards are built with PCIe 5.0 components which add to the bill-of-materials and that cost is shifted to you, as an end customer.
Tell AMD to get rid of the consumer PCIe 5.0, no one will use it anyways.

Nonsense. There are B650 and X670 boards without Gen5 on GPU. Only E boards must implement x16 Gen5.

 

[Hofnaerrchen]

I highly support upgradebility and long-lived platforms. A reason I did go for AM4 in 2018 myself and I will contine using that system for quite a while, at least another 2-3 years if nothing bad happens but if I had to get a new system right now I would rather choose AM4 again. The entry price for AM5 as well as energy consumption of Zen 4 and Alder/Rocket Lake is not very compelling to me. Maybe intel and AMD do better with the next generation.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

It's not hard to see why. when you combine the mobo and CPU cost, the bare minimum you are paying for a6 core zen 4 build with 16GB of RAM is $750 before taxes, or over $800 after, before shipping. That's absolutely nuts. When anyone on AM4 can buy a 5800x for $240 as an upgrade there is 0 reason to go brand new. AMD really played themselves with the 5800x3d too. So long as that chip is available, there really is no justification for going with the newer platform unless you want to spend even more money every year on new CPUs. You combine that with rampant inflation and stagnating wages and it isnt surprising these chips are not selling.

IMO there's also the performance angle to consider, although this only applies to a small % of buyers. Those of us who are responsible with spending know that CPUs have been *good enough* for a long time. Like, if you play on a monitor with a 60 hz refresh rate, then ye olde Sandy Bridge is just now getting slow enough that even OCing it cant save it. That chip is 10 years old. And this only applies to CPU intensive online games, for many older multiplayer titles, less demanding multiplayer, singleplayer, ece its still perfectly fine. Anything newer, like haswell or coffee lake, has plenty left in the tank.

This was one of the biggest gripes with windows 11, that it was outmodeing tons of perfectly fine hardware for no particular reason (TPM 2.0 is easy enough to add).

GPUs are in a similar state. We all see the graphs of older GPUs falling off in framerate, but usually only at max settings. Going from high to ultra imposes massive performance penalties for little gain. Using GPU intensive MSAA instead of CPU intensive FXAA at 1080p or higher is a total waste. And if you are like many and still use 1080p, then even $250 GPUs today are plenty to max out modern titles. Outside of the 3% at 4k and the 5% at 1440p most people dont need new GPUs every year.

Selling new hardware gets increasingly difficult here, and if the price doesnt impress the performance needs to. Frankly, I dont see my 5800x3d being unable to play games at 90+ FPS within the next decade, so why upgrade?

It does not work like that, I am afraid.
B650 boards are PCIe 4.0 and B650E are PCIe 5.0

Incorrect. While not a requirement, a single B650 chipset DOES support 5.0, either to the first M.2 slot or the first x16 slot. B650E can do both. That's part of why these chipsets themselves are so expensive, thus raising the cost of the entire motherboard even if 5.0 isnt present, the silicon is still there.

There is AM4 platform for those wishing to carry on with DDR4. You need to cut somewhere.

Yeah, but that's supporting a dead end socket, and AMD would NEVER do that!!!1!!

Intel's 14th gen will also be DDR5 only, and while I accept why AMD didnt use DDR4 on zen 4, it still stings in the wallet.

 

[Tek-Check]

Incorrect. While not a requirement, a single B650 chipset DOES support 5.0, either to the first M.2 slot or the first x16 slot. B650E can do both. That's part of why these chipsets themselves are so expensive, thus raising the cost of the entire motherboard even if 5.0 isnt present, the silicon is still there.

Promo21 chipset itself does not offer PCIe 5.0, but PCIe 4.0.
It is CPU only that offers 28 PCIe 5.0 lanes. Yes, silicon with PCIe 5.0 is there, on every CPU, but not on every board.
On E boards, PCIe 5.0 is mandatory on all devices.
On X670, M.2 Gen5 drive is mandatory.
On anything else, Gen5 is optional.
Here are AM5 diagrams.

 

[ir_cow]

@Tek-Check from my understanding both X670 PROMs are identical. At least the ones I've taken photos of have the same identification written on them. The picture is a great way to show how things are split regardless. AM5 biggest blunder I think is not having a Gen5 link to the PCH.

@TheinsanegamerN, none of the AM5 MBs chipsets support Gen5 as the link is only Gen4 to the CPU. All Gen5 comes from the CPU as Tek-Check pointed out.

 

[kapone32]

Uh, I have multiple builds. I only listed one in my System Specs. It's my primary gaming computer but actually the computer I use the least. I use my Mac more frequently than any of my PCs but in the context of TechPowerUp's discussion forums and its audience, it's probably better for me to list a Windows PC.

I know the PPT of the CPUs in my various builds both at idle and at peak load (during a Cinebench R23 benchmark or a Handbrake encode). Intel Power Gadget also provides similar data for the Core i7 in my Mac.

I'm not even sure about the idle power consumption between the 5800X3D and 5900X since I don't have both in front of me. I do know that 5900X has two 6-core chiplets and one chiplet shuts down during periods of low activity. The 5800X3D is based on one 8-core chiplet like others in the 5700 and 5800 series.

However, an 5900X is going to outperform the 5800X3D for certain workloads, particularly MT ones that benefit from extra cores and don't need that massive cache. I bought my 5900X a year before the 5800X3D came out. Do I wish I have the latter for gaming? Yes, sure. But I decided that the pros and cons of my 5900X leaned toward me keeping it. One can throw money forever in the incessant pursuit of higher fps scores. I consider the build described in my System Specs as satisfactory for my current gaming needs.

AMD's decision to cut back on Zen 4 production is based on a wide drop in demand not just gamers.

The 5900X is a good CPU. I have one. However I (who is only speaking about me) bought a 5800X3D instead of getting AM5. If you were a Gamer (which I am) you will appreciate that chip more than the 5900X. That I can say. The only AM4 chip that competes with the 5800X3D (Gaming) is the 5950X (Yes have one too) because of it's high boost clock. The only reason the 5800X3D has not sold like the 3300X is because of price. I do know that it was the first AM4 chip I have seen this year that was back ordered on Newegg when they dropped the price to $499. If you don't know the 5800X3D is not about highest FPS but smoothest feeling Gameplay at whatever FPS and resolution.

AMD has cut back production on Zen4 because they obviously didn't expect the Board partners to juice the price and maybe overestimated how many DIY users are willing to more focus on production vs Gaming. Regardless if Intel does the same thing with their pricing they will suffer the same problem. There is more too though. in support of what you are saying for the user that wants to know how the differences between the chips it is so:

5600: All you need if you want to Game at 1080P or 1440P with a mid range card like the 6500XT, 6600 or 3060.

5950X: If you want to make videos on AM4, get high benchmark scores or be blown away when you change the view to logical processors in the CPU screen in Task Manager.

5900X: If you want snappy performance, high RAM OC without WHEA errors and good overall performance get one of these.

5800X3D: If it is Oct 22 and your focus is strictly Gaming with any Graphics card, on AMD there is no chip that makes more sense, if priced properly. The fact that every PS5 and Xbox Game will be developed on the same (lesser) chip is a good feeling. The fact that you can buy any (with a BIOS update) AM4 board is also nice. Then you may already be on AM4 which means all you need is a CPU upgrade and you are Golden.

If you want all of that in one chip the 7000 series chips do provide it but as I said the platform cost is high. There are a few huge elephants in the room like the increase in the overall cost of living and change in lifestyle due to different social, climate, financial, political and cultural pressures though. At the end of the day these are luxury products but I have been a Video Gamer since I was 7 or 8 so I thoroughly enjoy Gaming. I can't wait to play Gotham Knights with my 5800X3D chip.

 

[jesdals]

Well thats not good news for a refresh in q1 2023 lets hope that they dont pull an Nvidia a push down new products

 

[Gmr_Chick]

I'd been rocking a 3600 for the past couple of years until a couple weeks ago, when I snagged a 5600 for $160 before tax. Runs perfectly fine on my B550 PG Velocita and I honestly have no complaints whatsoever. I do have an itch to "upgrade" to an X570 board though - probably a Crosshair VIII Hero (non Dark) simply because ASRock BIOS are wonky as all hell - but my next priority is going to be upgrading my 1660 Super to an RX 6650XT

 

[mahirzukic2]

Nah! Nobody wants to let go of those juicy profits from recent years. World economy in large parts is going into a recession and some even in a depression. But they still want to continue to surf that all-time high…

One might think buyers are waiting for Intel 13th gen and Ryzen X3D SKU's to get the best bang for their money, given future prospects.

That's the thing, companies don't want to relinquish those juicy margins. So (as consumers) punish them by not buying (this is going perfectly so far) and until a few (1 or 2) quarters pass with them trying to hold on to those juicy margins but having a ton of inventory which isn't moving, then they will become smarter.
Or as the saying from where I come from goes: "It will come to them from their asses to their heads".

And when it does they will start lowering the price down EVEN if it means lowering margins, as lowER margins are better than no margins, duh.

On that note, you can see that they have already started to offer discounts on memory for an AM5 CPU and board in microcenter (albeit only in the US or maybe Canada). So this is just a taste of what's to come. Strap yourselves boys and sit tight. The ride has just begun.

 

[beedoo]

I'll be building two AM5 systems this time around to replace my ageing TR2950X and Intel 5930K systems, but I'm not putting any money down until I can get the RDNA3 cards that I want for each system... It's just timing from this end.

 

[medi01]

When the 5800x3D beats/equals the 7950x is most gaming benchmarks and AMD themselves already teased 3D cache versions of zen4 why would anyone jump to upgrade right now when the entire platform is so overpriced?

They kind of did this to themselves really

I love the talk but have questions:

1) DIY market is 16% of CPU market
2) Sharp drop of GPU sales would be understandable (yet it is flat), why sharp drop of CPU sales?
3) I get that 5800X3D is better for gaming, but that's still AMD's CPU isn't it?

 

[cvaldes]

I love the talk but have questions:

1) DIY market is 16% of CPU market
2) Sharp drop of GPU sales would be understandable (yet it is flat), why sharp drop of CPU sales?
3) I get that 5800X3D is better for gaming, but that's still AMD's CPU isn't it?

Likely price and not just the CPU. Zen 4 has a higher entry cost since it requires one to buy into a new platform, a new motherboard and RAM, right?

At least for business purchase cycles, the major window of opportunity has closed. Before the pandemic a lot of businesses had put off computer purchases. The pandemic encouraged these companies to make up for deferred upgrades.

So now a lot of businesses have 1-2 year old systems that are still 3-4 years from full depreciation.

When I departed my last corporate job, I was using an 8 year old Dell Optiplex. It was still plenty fast for my tasks and I had received it new. The IT department upgraded the SSD once and also gave me better monitors but the actual computer stayed the same all those years.

 

[Why_Me]

LOL @ AMD

 

[hurakura]

They need to increase prices like Intel does. People don't like to buy cheap stuff.

 

[Deleted member 177333]

Ya, I'm actually right in the prime market spot to pitch a new CPU / MB to, and I looked at AMD's offerings...sorry, prices are just too high. From overpriced mainboards to having to move to overpriced DDR5 memory for another $300-500...no thanks. I'll likely be upgrading within the next 3-6 months but I'll pick up either a 5000 series AMD or an 11th gen Intel via ebay and be able to migrate my existing 32GB of DDR4 for a fraction of the cost to move to 7000 series AMD. Would love to move to x670e and a 7950X, and I can afford it, but it's just a bad buy given the pricing.

And just to add, here, this type of market rejection of the pricing scheme from AMD & mainboard partners...I'd love to see more of this in the GPU market with NVidia...$1600 for a 4090. L. O. L.