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help with undervolting 5800x3d

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InWin SR36
Looks great but not available in local market.

Actually having a hard time finding a good AIO that outperforms my Phanteks PH-TC14PE by a significant amount to justify the high prices of these things.

I may just look at using another thermal paste from the current MX4 and try some Thermal Grizzly to bring temps down by a few degrees under OC and full load.
 

Mussels

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Thanks for posting that I narrowed my AIO choice to the Artic freezer II 280 expensive (overpriced in local market) and the Lian Li galahad which is cheaper here.
Any other good AIO options for a 5800X ? Deepcool castle 280EX?
Personally i'll only vouch for the Arctic freezer II since they've done their warranty stuff so well, and Be quiet since they've got fill ports AND an in-hose pump preventing so many issues experienced by the pump being in the heatsink/block that other designs have.

be quiet! Pure Loop 2 FX 280 AIO Review - A Closer Look | TechPowerUp

1. No more rattles and risks of air bubbles
1666072339041.png

2. And a simple stealthed fill port at the opposite end of the rad to the pump - where it's actually practical to fill with the pump running to bleed air out.
1666072390509.png




And the freezer:
Arctic Liquid Freezer II 280 A-RGB Review | TechPowerUp

1. Great AM4 mounting kit helps with temps
2. Great warranty support if things go bad with those replacement kits
3.VRM fan is genuinely helpful for most users


I would almost recommend users go air or entry level custom water loops these days - Alphacool have expandable AIO kits for example - I cant vouch for performance, but the concept of an AIO designed to be refilled that you can add your GPU into, is fantastic.
 
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Positive offset also boosts temps like no tomorrow.
LLC helps.
1.2Vcore at all-core load is or should be more than sufficient for 4GHz to 4.45GHz all-core speed.

I cant set SMT to on at~4.6GHz all-core without it reaching temps into high 80s-low 90s C within seconds. Gotta pursue a monoblock remount and add fans to radiator(one 120mm atm).
What LLC are you using on your ASUS board Mode 3?

Still think the OP performance issues in R23 has to do with LLC settings on his mobo.
 
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Mussels

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so am i clear ? please tell i don't need a new cooler or that i have a bad cpu i had to really tighten the screws down not much though there is still maybe a round or two left should i tighten it more ? i don't remember doing that for the last 2 cpus i had this is not my first time building i'm a 42 this January i have more than 20 years of experience in building computers maybe i'm getting old but this is the first time i had to tighten the screws hard like this
btw this is the only cooler i found Noctua NH-D15S
Fire up HWinfo while you have R23 running, and check the stats for clock speed and efffective clock speed while it's at full load.
1666072991435.png


If they're at 4.45GHz you're at the best the chip can do, and better cooling won't change a thing.
And seriously, these chips run hot in synthetic AVX loads like this - but they're insanely efficient and cold in gaming

90W with something like R23 vs 40-60 in regular apps and gaming is very, very different for temps
1666072849723.png
1666072834121.png
1666072876292.png


What LLC are you using on your ASUS board Mode 4?

Still think the OP performance issues in R23 has to do with LLC settings on his mobo.
Any undervolting on the x3D can result in clock stretching where you'll see 4.45GHz real clock but say 4.0GHz effective as the cores sleep - it's more like PWM voltage control vs DC voltage on fans.

Hwinfo *while r23 is running* can show us this
 
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@The King , auto yelds clock streching as @Mussels
put it, but only when fiddling cpu core freq multi.
AMD really did quite a number to lock it in.

Better results from auto , trough all 5 settings , 3 ,4 5 are top, 4,5 , very close results . Went as high with 120% current capability on l3 and l4, now 110% l5
Bare in mind that with this x3d chip installed some settings are missing entirely from the bios, no EDC,TDC,PPT, donwcore, possibly CO . Tried on two motherboards, some settings are not availabe when compared to vanilla Zen3.
 
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What LLC are you using on your ASUS board Mode 3?

Still think the OP performance issues in R23 has to do with LLC settings on his mobo.
Now I'm using a different platform, but with an Asus board.

LLC
It appears that XMP enabled, enables to lvl 3.
Lvl 1 system clear cmos at defaults.
Lvl 4 for manual OC on ambient "suggested"
Lvl 5 and higher for liquid cooling or better.

Lvl 1-3 typically has full load v-droop.
Lvl 4 and up, hold steady or over user input v-core at all core load.

Inexperienced user with one of the hottest chips on the market would concentrate on cooling.

Ambient temp, did I read?? 29c?? 85F??
^^
This is primary issue. Not default or user defined settings....
 
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Fire up HWinfo while you have R23 running, and check the stats for clock speed and efffective clock speed while it's at full load.
If they're at 4.45GHz you're at the best the chip can do, and better cooling won't change a thing.
And seriously, these chips run hot in synthetic AVX loads like this - but they're insanely efficient and cold in gaming

90W with something like R23 vs 40-60 in regular apps and gaming is very, very different for temps
the best i saw was 4.3ghz cause of cooling -btw i ordered a new cooler today gonna take several weeks before it arrives- but i still think that the chip i got has lost the silicon lottery
Still think the OP performance issues in R23 has to do with LLC settings on his mobo.
the galahad got no software to handle it you can only change fans profile in bios if that what you mean as for installation it's top exhaust
 

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These chips are not for overclocking, for the most part AMD made sure of that. Big deal some guy got it to 4700.. its not going to be stable for all core loads, and its stil a lot slower that its older brothers when it comes to peak MHz. A regular 5800X can do 5050MHz.

I would just oc the fclk to get your mems up to speed and enjoy the rest of your day :D

I say that about overclocking because at 143PPT this chip wants to start melting, and its only doing 4250 with Linpack.

No point.
 
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so am i clear ? please tell i don't need a new cooler or that i have a bad cpu i had to really tighten the screws down not much though there is still maybe a round or two left should i tighten it more ?
Yes. This is a no-thinking mounting system, tighten the spring-loaded nuts until they can't be turned any further. If you stop prior to this, you will have to low mounting pressure resulting in poor cooling performance.
 
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Yes. This is a no-thinking mounting system, tighten the spring-loaded nuts until they can't be turned any further. If you stop prior to this, you will have to low mounting pressure resulting in poor cooling performance.
i know that what i was saying is the pressure is too much i heard the bracket cracking that's why i stopped not because the nuts can't be turned any further the bracket is fine -for now at least- i have used this cooler before and it didn't take that much pressure to have a good contact with the cpu and in the past i have broke amd mounting bracket cause of with the same amount of pressure, intel or any mount that take 4 screws is better than that stupid hook that amd use
 
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i have no idea but it feels like 28 i got nothing to measure it with
Ah yeah, there it is.
Circles and circles because high ambient temps.

No new accomplishments today. All suggestions null.
Un-watch thread. Good luck!
 
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the galahad got no software to handle it you can only change fans profile in bios if that what you mean as for installation it's top exhaust
I was refering to CPU LLC (Load-Line Calibration) its a setting in the motherboards BIOS.
On my board I had low R23 number when it was set to AUTO. Setting LLC to 3 Increased my R23 score around 400 points.

Not sure if it help you or get your clocks to that 4450 max clocks speed.
Still worth looking at has I see other in this thread hitting that 4450 with their 5800X3D.
 
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I was refering to CPU LLC (Load-Line Calibration) its a setting in the motherboards BIOS.
On my board I had low R23 number when it was set to AUTO. Setting LLC to 3 Increased my R23 score around 400 points.
yeah i did realize that after my replay still i don't care much about r23 score now i'm just focused on temps bring them down then we can talk about score
 
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I'd recommend drop the LLC lower and bump the offset within safe voltage constraints til you get stability at load without crashing. You're VRM temps will thank. Slightly lower temps could certainly help in your situation. If you aren't already you might consider push pull on the AIO though it's hard to believe a 360 would struggle to cool a 5800X3D that shouldn't really be the case I could see a 240 AIO having harder time with it, but 360 does not seem like it should be so that's peculiar.
 

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it's hard to believe a 360 would struggle to cool a 5800X3D that shouldn't really be the case I could see a 240 AIO having harder time with it,
It shouldn't struggle to cool X3D, not at all. I am doing it with a heatsink and the whole time it is super easy to cool.

It is only when you reach the limit of the chip does it get warm. Something is up with his cooling, because I ran my 5900X at 28c ambient and I did not dial back my OC at all. Kept all 235w worth cooled by my air cooler.
 
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Don’t know if already someone said it but applying negative CO all it does is making the CPU to clock higher on the same voltage eventually. If max clock is already reached without CO then this affects clock sustainability. You can see this on avg discrete clock under any load (and better effectives on all core load).

Controlling temp on the 5800X3D without boost override available leaves you with the only one left. Setting a temp limit. Set it to 75~80C and then apply the negative CO that the CPU can withstand without instability and that’s it.
It will do its best within all limits.
Lowering PPT will not affect much max temp under low-middle threaded loads, like gaming.
 
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I'd recommend drop the LLC lower and bump the offset within safe voltage constraints til you get stability at load without crashing
sorry but what offset should i bump?
 

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I have not used a cpu offset or LLC on the CPU when it is controlling itself. Does it do anything? I’ve used it a couple of times for static clocks, but that’s it.. because it seems counter productive to me to use LLC on a stock running cpu.
 
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Lower LLC reduces VRM temps, but can hinder stability if voltage is too low under load due to higher vdroop. It's good provided you aren't undercutting expected power delivery. I think it even improves transients. Offset seems to be preferred often over fixed, but there are case arguments I suppose in favor of each. I'm not 100% certain how it works with AMD and Ryzen in terms of offset and fixed voltages because it's rather clever with it's auto handling of things with PBO, but it still leaves room for manual overrides.

It's probably best to leave the voltage control to auto and simply reduce the LLC values downward to lower values and test out stability is under load and check performance temps to gauge the impact. You can experiment with the amount of LLC vdroop to find a balance sweet spot. Buildzoid even recommends lower LLC for z670 with Intel in his Aero D vs Aorus Master comparison video and what he mentioned fell in line with my personal experiences with LLC for Intel. I found the same situation LLC can in fact work better in practice. Something he mentioned about it was overshoot voltage and how lower LLC helps.

The LLC issue should really apply pretty equally in general to both Intel and AMD. A lower LLC will always be easier on the VRM design of the board though as a rule of thumb. The key is not dropping expected voltage so low that under load it causes a system crash.

I think vdroop use to be a worse issue on older higher node chips, but today lower node higher heat density chips the vdroop actually helps especially with chips scaling higher at lower voltages and heat density being higher thus thermals being a bigger concern while quick more dynamic scaling is easier and makes vdroop less concerning on stability sort of if it's still high enough for supplied voltage at load.

It's not going to hurt to reduce the LLC And see how it impacts temps and stability and is perfectly safe at the same time. It's worth trying when temps are already a problem.

Here's the Buildzoid video if interested.
Gigabyte z670 aorus master vs aero D comparison.

A lot of keen insight in his video analysis. What he alludes to is the same experience I shared for my earlier z170 board with LLC as well. The parts on the transients and oversight voltage are neat as well to the curious mind. It's funny where he mentions programs crashing too to voltages because there is a sweet spot on voltage being too low and causing a program crash yet not a outright system crash in certain cases.

I've so had that same experience countless times with overclocking. I'm sure most overclocking people remember encountering those in between sweet spots where a programs stable or up to a point and another isn't. That's essentially the struggle with LLC and voltage in general being lower than expected you can encounter a delicate balance of stability and instability when voltage is too far below expectations. You could have hard full system crash or just program crash. A full system crash usually means voltage is too low or temps too high which could be CPU, GPU, system memory, or board VRM's. A soft crash means it's not entirely unstable outright, but voltage are still too low or temps too high relative to what's required and/or expected for how far you're trying to push the hardware itself.
 
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Sure its not going to harm/damage anything but stability if LLC is introduced and it is a general rule for all CPUs but on Ryzens (Zen2/3) specifically there is some history info of impacting boost performance substantially under high loads if its implemented to the degree that really makes a difference.
So learning and doing/trying what affects Intel CPU could be potentially irrelevant to a Ryzen CPU.

Though as I said wont hurt to try.

We have to comprehend that most Zen3 CPU have higher (max) temps under low-middle loads and not on high-all core ones (the ones LLC is affecting more). Due to the aggressive boosting under simple tasks or gaming and also to the number of (dozens) temp sensors scattered throughout the die(s). Always one of them is near a potential hotspot.

I've tried a number of things on my 5900X to make it not hit 80~82C, even though it was only very briefly under low/simple tasks. Using boost override (-50MHz) can help a little but this is not available on 5800X3D.
Reducing PPT/EDC limit does not affect (on max temp) any Zen3 (142W) unless you set it to low (like 80W) but you may be crippling a lot of performance, especially on SMT.

What did the job eventually was setting a temp limit to 75C. So after this I never saw temp above 76~77C on HWiNFO64 and without loosing any of the stock boost/performance. What this does (eventually) is to shave off any voltage/boost overshoot and maybe high aggressiveness. The CPU still is hitting the upper boost limit even if I set it to 5.05GHz (boost override to +100MHz).
You can use it with negative CO to help sustainability of boost (effective clock) and maybe hitting max boost with lower voltage. CO alone cant tame max temp under low-middle load.

I do not see any other way to have the desired max temp and to keep boost as close to as intended or even improve it.
Better and more expensive cooler will not affect much the max temp value (especially for Zen3) as this is happening as I said very rapidly and briefly under low-middle loads. Those very very brief high temp values are happening too fast on die and should not affect Tcase or IHS temp much if any amount.

If any Zen3 CPU under all core load is having same max temp, or higher, with low-middle loads it may mean that PPT/EDC is set to high or they're completely unconstrained, like the stupid-high values the boards are setting under Auto PBO (mainboard limits).
 

Mussels

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yeah i did realize that after my replay still i don't care much about r23 score now i'm just focused on temps bring them down then we can talk about score
Score matters.

You need to know if you've crippled performance or not, as lowering the temps the right amount keeps performance or increases it.
You need to use the PBO2 tuner tool and the -30 offset, or if your board has unlocked settings, you can undervolt

Theres nothing else other than making sure your cooler is working correctly.
 
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i know that what i was saying is the pressure is too much i heard the bracket cracking that's why i stopped not because the nuts can't be turned any further the bracket is fine -for now at least- i have used this cooler before and it didn't take that much pressure to have a good contact with the cpu and in the past i have broke amd mounting bracket cause of with the same amount of pressure, intel or any mount that take 4 screws is better than that stupid hook that amd use
So, are you saying you have not tightened the nuts to the manufacturers specifications then? Creaking is the springs settling, this is normal. Tighten the nuts properly before looking for other causes.

You are complaining about high temps. Improperly mounted cooler is a pretty significant cause for higher temps than expected...
 

freeagent

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Turn the screws until they stop :)
 
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So, are you saying you have not tightened the nuts to the manufacturers specifications then?
the nuts are tightened first by hand and then used a screw driver and what made me stop was hearing the bracket cracking that sound wasn't springs settling no and even tighten it more didn't change anything same degrees and same clocks
 

freeagent

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If you heard cracking then something isn’t right, take it apart and start over.
 
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