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Intel's Next-Gen Desktop Platform Intros Socket LGA1851, "Meteor Lake-S" to Feature 6P+16E Core Counts

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Keeping up with the cadence of two generations of desktop processors per socket, Intel will turn the page of the current LGA1700, with the introduction of the new Socket LGA1851. The processor package will likely have the same dimensions as LGA1700, and the two sockets may share cooler compatibility. The first processor microarchitecture to debut on LGA1851 will be the 14th Gen Core "Meteor Lake-S." These chips will feature a generationally lower CPU core-count compared to "Raptor Lake," but significantly bump the IPC on both the P-cores and E-cores.

"Raptor Lake" is Intel's final monolithic silicon client processor before the company pivots to chiplets built on various foundry nodes, as part of its IDM 2.0 strategy. The client-desktop version of "Meteor Lake," dubbed "Meteor Lake-S," will have a maximum CPU core configuration of 6P+16E (that's 6 performance cores with 16 efficiency cores). The chip has 6 "Redwood Cove" P-cores, and 16 "Crestmont" E-cores. Both of these are expected to receive IPC uplifts, such that the processor will end up faster (and hopefully more efficient) than the top "Raptor Lake-S" part. Particularly, it should be able to overcome the deficit of 2 P-cores.



Intel could find itself with a similar product differentiation problem it faced with the 11th Gen Core "Rocket Lake-S" desktop processors, where the physically low CPU core-count compared to the previous-generation (8-core vs. 10-core for "Comet Lake-S"); meant that both the Core i7-11700K and i9-11900K ended up being 8-core/16-thread processors. Here, we could see 6P+16E being the core-config of nearly all top SKUs, segmented by clock-speeds; while the mid-tier SKUs end up being 6P+8E.

Besides the CPU, "Meteor Lake-S" is expected to debut the new Xe-LPG graphics architecture for the iGPU, which could meet DirectX 12 Ultimate logo requirements. The iGPU on the "Meteor Lake-S" processor is expected to feature 4 Xe Cores, which works out to 64 EUs, and 512 unified shaders. This would still be a significant uplift from the iGPU of "Raptor Lake-S" with 32 EUs.

Intel is expected to restore CPU core-counts back to current levels with the 15th Gen "Arrow Lake-S" (2024-25). These chips are expected to come with core-configurations of up to 8P+16E. While the E-cores are expected to remain the same, the P-cores get a performance uplift, besides the addition of more cores. The "Compute Tile" (the die with the CPU cores) of "Meteor Lake-S" is built on the Intel 4 node (isopower characteristics comparable to TSMC 5 nm); while those of "Arrow Lake-S" will be built on the Intel 20A node (Intel is hyping 20A to be a pathbreaking node competitive with TSMC's sub 2 nm nodes).

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This is why I don’t get the whole Alder Lake / Rocket Lake DDR4 and DDR5 argument. If you buy a DDR4 version today, you will still have to upgrade motherboard, RAM and CPU if you want to upgrade to Meteor Lake in 2024.
 

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Interesting to drop two P cores, so with IPC and clock speed they need to make up that deficit and then some if they believe this approach to be successful, it wouldn't be enough just to match 13th gen.
 
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This is why I don’t get the whole Alder Lake / Rocket Lake DDR4 and DDR5 argument. If you buy a DDR4 version today, you will still have to upgrade motherboard, RAM and CPU if you want to upgrade to Meteor Lake in 2024.

This is why you don't get the whole PC industry in general. The vast majority of people do not upgrade their CPUs every generation, in fact the vast majority doesn't even do it every 2/3 generations.

The platform/socket longevity as an advantage is a myth AMD fans have created. Let's keep it this way.

Interesting to drop two P cores, so with IPC and clock speed they need to make up that deficit and then some if they believe this approach to be successful, it wouldn't be enough just to match 13th gen.

If E-cores are just 15% faster for MTL it's enough to make MTL faster than RPL even if MTL P-Cores are exactly the same as RPL P-Cores.
 
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This is why you don't get the whole PC industry in general. The vast majority of people do not upgrade their CPUs every generation, in fact the vast majority doesn't even do it every 2/3 generations.

The platform/socket longevity as an advantage is a myth AMD fans have created. Let's keep it this way.

Especially when such myth is not honored - and hastily reconsidered at the very last minute because the competition just butchered their value proposition entirely. I will never forgive or forget AMD's treatment of X370 buyers.
 
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Intel's new Tick/Tock process: -2 Cores/+2 Cores . :laugh::banghead:

This is why I don’t get the whole Alder Lake / Rocket Lake DDR4 and DDR5 argument. If you buy a DDR4 version today, you will still have to upgrade motherboard, RAM and CPU if you want to upgrade to Meteor Lake in 2024.
Nobody wants to upgrade to a lower count processor, let's be real. I did my upgrade this month, just because I knew the CPU's next year will be mostly used to end-user beta testing with lower count that today's gen.
 
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This is why I don’t get the whole Alder Lake / Rocket Lake DDR4 and DDR5 argument. If you buy a DDR4 version today, you will still have to upgrade motherboard, RAM and CPU if you want to upgrade to Meteor Lake in 2024.
What argument? It gives consumers a choice to use the newest CPUs, even if they're on a tight budget. This allows Intel to make more money. How does this not make sense?

You would rather be forced to buy a dead platform (AM4) because you can't afford DDR5 and a $300 motherboard (AM5)? That strategy doesn't see to be working out too well for AMD.
 
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Intel's new Tick/Tock process: -2 Cores/+2 Cores . :laugh::banghead:


Nobody wants to upgrade to a lower count processor, let's be real. I did my upgrade this month, just because I knew the CPU's next year will be mostly used to end-user beta testing with lower count that today's gen.
The 12700k being beat/matched by the 13600k says hello :D . It's more a psychological block than anything else
 

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If E-cores are just 15% faster for MTL it's enough to make MTL faster than RPL even if MTL P-Cores are exactly the same as RPL P-Cores.
Sorry I should have said coming from a gaming perspective, but you make an excellent point, and to be fair in gaming they wouldn't really need to be much faster at all as games aren't really after all the 8 P cores anyway, just crazy good performance from at least one or more.

also makes me wonder if there's any market for pure E core chips at all.
 
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Especially when such myth is not honored - and hastily reconsidered at the very last minute because the competition just butchered their value proposition entirely. I will never forgive or forget AMD's treatment of X370 buyers.
Oh boo-hoo! Try being a Threadripper owner on X399. Thousands of dollars with no upgrade path :D
 
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The meteor lake -S tile is 8P+16.
 
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This is why you don't get the whole PC industry in general. The vast majority of people do not upgrade their CPUs every generation, in fact the vast majority doesn't even do it every 2/3 generations.

The platform/socket longevity as an advantage is a myth AMD fans have created. Let's keep it this way.

According to the surveys conducted by HWUB, the number of people willing to upgrade every other generation (excluding Zen+) exceeded 50% for AM4 owners.

If a platform affords one the ability to upgrade to the latest processors and the performance and the price is right then people will be more likely to upgrade.

In addition, you have to consider that not everyone buys the latest processors. If you purchased an X370 motherboard, you can upgrade to a 2000, 3000, or 5000 series CPU at any time. Ryzen 8000 series could be out and AM4 owners can be snagging 5000 series processors at steep discounts. You are getting a significant performance benefit at a very low cost. Considering that platform longevity is most certainly a factor.

That might be why AM4 CPUs and motherboard still dominate the top seller lists on Amazon and other eRetailers.

"the vast majority"? Depends what you mean by that. The vast majority of people don't know what a CPU is in the first place. Considering this is an enthusiast forum, I'll assume you mean the vast majority of enthusiasts. With that in mind, I'd contend that the upgrade rate of enthusiasts is entirely variable based on a number of conditions. If socket longevity increases, CPU performance makes large jumps generation over generation, and prices are reasonable then all of those would lead to increase upgrade rate. Coincidentally, those are all hallmarks of the AM4 platform.

Intel is absolutely missing out by not committing to a longer term platform.

In regards to Intel's next gen platform / CPUs, it will be very interesting to see how Intel's tiles perform and what kind of configurations they will offer.
 
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Oh boo-hoo! Try being a Threadripper owner on X399. Thousands of dollars with no upgrade path :D

I feel your pain brother. And X399 still doesn't have it the worst. You have one generation of upgrades if you got the original 1xxx Threadripper, but the TRX40 guys were just cast aside and ignored without a single generational upgrade. All in all, a happy big bunch of soon-to-be Intel customers ;)
 
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If the i9 is 6 P core, what is the i3 and i5, 4 P core? :/
I don't think the desktop i9 is going to be a 6 P core, it is more likely to be 8 P. And the i3 and i5 will have some proportional arrangement.

The reason for this is that the diagram in this article showing a 6 P arrangement seems to me to refer to the Meteor Lake notebook and desktop range, the U/P/H platform as Intel calls it. What Intel are also introducing with the Meteor Lake mobile range are a second type of E core, the LPE (Low Power Efficient) core. Intel has released some firm information about this range including that these CPUs would have up to 14 cores, arranged as 6 P + 8 E/LPE. This ties in with the diagram. If I remember correctly Intel were planning at one stage to release the mobile Meteor Lake some time before the desktop range but are not planning to do so now. This would explain the early release of information about Meteor Lake particularly about the mobile parts, and why although some of it will also apply to the desktop the maximum of 6 P cores definitely will not.
 
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So why are there Intel slides showing 8P cores + 40 E cores for Arrow Lake and 8P cores for Meteor Lake from only a month or so ago. This is not the real desktop range and I fully agree with pressing on about it being for U/H/P. As though Intel would cede back ground to AMD with Zen 5 by now cutting core counts.
 
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Man the comments to this thread...
 
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According to the surveys conducted by HWUB, the number of people willing to upgrade every other generation (excluding Zen+) exceeded 50% for AM4 owners.

If a platform affords one the ability to upgrade to the latest processors and the performance and the price is right then people will be more likely to upgrade.

In addition, you have to consider that not everyone buys the latest processors. If you purchased an X370 motherboard, you can upgrade to a 2000, 3000, or 5000 series CPU at any time. Ryzen 8000 series could be out and AM4 owners can be snagging 5000 series processors at steep discounts. You are getting a significant performance benefit at a very low cost. Considering that platform longevity is most certainly a factor.

That might be why AM4 CPUs and motherboard still dominate the top seller lists on Amazon and other eRetailers.

"the vast majority"? Depends what you mean by that. The vast majority of people don't know what a CPU is in the first place. Considering this is an enthusiast forum, I'll assume you mean the vast majority of enthusiasts. With that in mind, I'd contend that the upgrade rate of enthusiasts is entirely variable based on a number of conditions. If socket longevity increases, CPU performance makes large jumps generation over generation, and prices are reasonable then all of those would lead to increase upgrade rate. Coincidentally, those are all hallmarks of the AM4 platform.

Intel is absolutely missing out by not committing to a longer term platform.

In regards to Intel's next gen platform / CPUs, it will be very interesting to see how Intel's tiles perform and what kind of configurations they will offer.

Enough said, specially from AMDUnboxed.
 
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The vast majority of people do not upgrade their CPUs every generation, in fact the vast majority doesn't even do it every 2/3 generations.
The platform/socket longevity as an advantage is a myth AMD fans have created. Let's keep it this way.
The vast majority cant upgrade even if they wanted. We can thank Intel for that. Its the same BS argument that manufactures say for why they are not producing smaller screen phones with top of the line specs. Supposedly no one is buying them. Well ofcource no one is buying them if they dont exist. Confusing cause and effect.

And platform longevity is not a myth. 5800X3D sales surpassed Zen 3, Zen 4, Alder Lake and Raptor Lake sales combined once people saw the benchmarks.
The fact that a user can install one of the fastest gaming CPU's on a 5 year old motherboard is a pure win for consumers.
 
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This is why you don't get the whole PC industry in general. The vast majority of people do not upgrade their CPUs every generation, in fact the vast majority doesn't even do it every 2/3 generations.
[...]
Still rocking a ryzen 3700x and on my second older pc, an i5 3570k and I will use them as long as they work. The only upgrade I might do is storage.
 
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Very much looking forward to Arrow lake. I'm mostly skipping this generation of CPUs and GPUs because of so many first-gen teething, power and price issues with the current gen. But I'll be in the market for an upgrade again around end-2024 when the next generation of GPUs drops.

According to the surveys conducted by HWUB, the number of people willing to upgrade every other generation (excluding Zen+) exceeded 50% for AM4 owners.
Surveying HWUB followers already constitutes a massive selection bias.

Personally, I've only done an in-socket upgrade once in my life, and that was a circumstantial planned event : I bought a R5 3600X after the 5000-series was launched because the 5000-series was getting priced-guauged during the silicon apocalypse. Later upgraded to a 5950X once the prices came back down to earth.

The vast majority cant upgrade even if they wanted. We can thank Intel for that. Its the same BS argument that manufactures say for why they are not producing smaller screen phones with top of the line specs. Supposedly no one is buying them. Well ofcource no one is buying them if they dont exist. Confusing cause and effect.

And platform longevity is not a myth. 5800X3D sales surpassed Zen 3, Zen 4, Alder Lake and Raptor Lake sales combined once people saw the benchmarks.
The fact that a user can install one of the fastest gaming CPU's on a 5 year old motherboard is a pure win for consumers.
I'd present an example of Sony and ASUS phones, but you could just say they're not as popular in general as Apple/Samsung.

So I'll present another datapoint : Apple sells more units of the larger variants of the iphone than the smaller variants, while being priced higher and making more margin per unit.
 
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The vast majority cant upgrade even if they wanted. We can thank Intel for that. Its the same BS argument that manufactures say for why they are not producing smaller screen phones with top of the line specs. Supposedly no one is buying them. Well ofcource no one is buying them if they dont exist. Confusing cause and effect.

And platform longevity is not a myth. 5800X3D sales surpassed Zen 3, Zen 4, Alder Lake and Raptor Lake sales combined once people saw the benchmarks.
The fact that a user can install one of the fastest gaming CPU's on a 5 year old motherboard is a pure win for consumers.

I've not seen any official sales figures. I've not seen any sufficient geekbench 5 numbers which actually prove that 5800X3D being extremely popular is most likely a myth/lie.

Here: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=5800X3D

Compare with 12900K: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=12900K

Suddenly it looks like 12900K is a lot more popular or 5800X3D owners ... eschew benchmarking only people buy the 5800X3D because it's such a powerhouse, right? And they don't run benchmarks? Stop BS'ing me.

On every poll at WCCFTech rabid AMD fans proclaim they will buy AMD GPUs ten times over meanwhile https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ - AMD's GPU share has been stagnant over the past decade, around 20%.

AMD's fans echo chamber is the biggest echo chamber I've ever seen in my entire life. Apple fans pale in comparison.
 
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With only 6 P-Cores rather than 8, this means Redwood cores need to be at least 33.3% faster than Raptor cores just to keep up in multi-threaded workloads, I really can't see this happening. Meteor Lake is starting to look like another Rocket Lake car-crash from Intel!
 
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I've not seen any official sales figures. I've not seen any sufficient geekbench 5 numbers which actually prove that 5800X3D being extremely popular is most likely a myth/lie.

Here: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=5800X3D
Compare with 12900K: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=12900K

Suddenly it looks like 12900K is a lot more popular or 5800X3D owners ... eschew benchmarking only people buy the 5800X3D because it's such a powerhouse, right? And they don't run benchmarks? Stop BS'ing me.
Yes because everyone buying a CPU is running geekbench. What kind of ass backwards logic is that?

Here are some links for real sales:
6 Ryzen's in Top10
5800X3D at #12 and 12900KF at #19

Also https://www.notebookcheck.net/Stron...-and-Zen-4-trailing-in-its-wake.664759.0.html
1400 units sold. 12900K less than 30.


But please keep telling how 12900 is supposedly selling better...
 
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I'm holding out for Asteroid Lake : 2x P cores + 32,768x Commodore 64 cores to bury AMD in that "fake core Geekbench / Cinebench epeen p*ssing contest" thing once and for all. Only 64 cores on a Threadripper? Peasants! :D
 
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