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FiiO Q7 Portable Desktop-Class DAC/Amplifier

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FiiO bridges the gap between portable DAC/amps and desktop sources with the new Q7, using desktop hardware in a smaller form factor. It manages to pack in everything you can think of including buttons, knobs, and even a screen in addition to extensive I/O connectivity, desktop and mobile support, with lots of power off both battery and DC modes.

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Every time I read DAC/AMP reviews, and despite all prior experience predicting it, I'm still walloped by sticker shock. Clearly I'm not the target market for these products, but the question still presents itself: Why? Volume? They can't sell in more than the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, one would think. Handbag/sneaker effect, as in the target market is prepared to pay big money for the perception of value and/or prestige? It's just... we've been talking for two (three?) years about the ridiculous pricing on graphics cards; these make GPUs seem like a bargain.
 
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Hah! This one worked, as it's not Quick Look!

I wouldn't ding it for it's looks. Two of the best "high end" and "portable" units are the ifi Diablo and Earman Angel. These are also both portable in that they do have a battery, but they run hot and are really more portable as in "can carry it back and forth" rather than "can use in your pants pocket" type deal. While they aren't gamery they both sport paint coats that grab attention and are sort of odd for devices in that class and price range. There's also the Chord Mojo 2 in that range which while excellent looks like it was made by aliens on queludes in a 70s porn orgy after too much cocaine.

I'm still going to say I hate my MQA and it needs to just die but oh well. The cooling stand is sort of funny. I've got hot units as well and never had an issue but I don't strap them in leather cases. I haven't used this but I've also never had a bad FiiO product either.
Every time I read DAC/AMP reviews, and despite all prior experience predicting it, I'm still walloped by sticker shock. Clearly I'm not the target market for these products, but the question still presents itself: Why? Volume? They can't sell in more than the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, one would think. Handbag/sneaker effect, as in the target market is prepared to pay big money for the perception of value and/or prestige? It's just... we've been talking for two (three?) years about the ridiculous pricing on graphics cards; these make GPUs seem like a bargain.

These are a bargain compared to GPUs. Really the sub 1k market for DACs and AMPs is where it's at. Ditto for IEMs, dynamic over ears, and planar overears. It gets crazy outside of it and once you hit the five or six figure ranges it's minimal returns and you're paying for crap that's massively over engineered for what it needs to do, premium wood, single block aluminum, and even marble in construction. Also GPUs are giant wastes of cash even at 200 bucks. How often do you upgrade your GPU? It's way too often. It's a rip off and a racket. PC gaming is one of the most wasteful uses of consumer electronics and widely mockable, laughable, and a plague. Put it this way. How long is a GPU good? A few years tops and then you create electronic waste and buy again! This is a massive problem. You also never get the full performance out of them because of the OS and APIs and other nonsense you go through, the PC is a shit show on all levels for gaming. A console you can get about 8 years out of or more it's the vastly more sane and responsible purchase. High end audio stuff? Yeah that lasts DECADES. A DAC and AMP isn't something you buy and then toss when the upgraded version comes out it doesn't work like that at all. People run sound systems from the 70s which chug along and are just as good as what's out now. You want to run a GPU from the 70s? Never mind there was no such thing then you wouldn't run one from 20 years ago. So when you look at total value GPUs are the dumbest purchase possible compared to audio, gaming consoles, and even TVs. It's worthless quickly, creates tons of waste, won't last, and support ends fast. Might as well set your money on fire.

The GPU market is a churn and burn low margin, low value, doesn't hold value, doesn't last, make as cheap as possible market. The audio market is different and focuses on much higher end products that you epect to last decades or outlast you.

You brought up sneakers. GPUs are like sneakers it's value tanks the moment you get it and it's gone in a year or two. Audio is more like high end boots or dress shoes. You'll have it for 30 years and vintage sells for even more.

Also FiiO while considered a good and even great brand is still a budget brand.
 
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Hah! This one worked, as it's not Quick Look!

I wouldn't ding it for it's looks. Two of the best "high end" and "portable" units are the ifi Diablo and Earman Angel. These are also both portable in that they do have a battery, but they run hot and are really more portable as in "can carry it back and forth" rather than "can use in your pants pocket" type deal. While they aren't gamery they both sport paint coats that grab attention and are sort of odd for devices in that class and price range. There's also the Chord Mojo 2 in that range which while excellent looks like it was made by aliens on queludes in a 70s porn orgy after too much cocaine.

I'm still going to say I hate my MQA and it needs to just die but oh well. The cooling stand is sort of funny. I've got hot units as well and never had an issue but I don't strap them in leather cases. I haven't used this but I've also never had a bad FiiO product either.


These are a bargain compared to GPUs. Really the sub 1k market for DACs and AMPs is where it's at. Ditto for IEMs, dynamic over ears, and planar overears. It gets crazy outside of it and once you hit the five or six figure ranges it's minimal returns and you're paying for crap that's massively over engineered for what it needs to do, premium wood, single block aluminum, and even marble in construction. Also GPUs are giant wastes of cash even at 200 bucks. How often do you upgrade your GPU? It's way too often. It's a rip off and a racket. PC gaming is one of the most wasteful uses of consumer electronics and widely mockable, laughable, and a plague. Put it this way. How long is a GPU good? A few years tops and then you create electronic waste and buy again! This is a massive problem. You also never get the full performance out of them because of the OS and APIs and other nonsense you go through, the PC is a shit show on all levels for gaming. A console you can get about 8 years out of or more it's the vastly more sane and responsible purchase. High end audio stuff? Yeah that lasts DECADES. A DAC and AMP isn't something you buy and then toss when the upgraded version comes out it doesn't work like that at all. People run sound systems from the 70s which chug along and are just as good as what's out now. You want to run a GPU from the 70s? Never mind there was no such thing then you wouldn't run one from 20 years ago. So when you look at total value GPUs are the dumbest purchase possible compared to audio, gaming consoles, and even TVs. It's worthless quickly, creates tons of waste, won't last, and support ends fast. Might as well set your money on fire.

The GPU market is a churn and burn low margin, low value, doesn't hold value, doesn't last, make as cheap as possible market. The audio market is different and focuses on much higher end products that you epect to last decades or outlast you.

You brought up sneakers. GPUs are like sneakers it's value tanks the moment you get it and it's gone in a year or two. Audio is more like high end boots or dress shoes. You'll have it for 30 years and vintage sells for even more.

Also FiiO while considered a good and even great brand is still a budget brand.

This is something of a fraught conversation, because you and I have vastly differing calibrations on value when it comes to audio equipment. You're a pretty big gear head in regard to that stuff, whereas I assign more importance to it than the general population, but probably not by all that much. More than $200 for headphones is too rich for my blood for a point of reference, hence my comment about not being the target market.

Anyway, value is such a slippery thing. You're spot on about longevity of good equipment, and the point about churn in PC land is equally valid. Value, though, largely comes from uitility. Let's take the $750 price point of the Q7. If we stick with GPUs, that'll get you, as of this post, a 3070 ti or 3080. A body can easily clock 20+ hours a week PC gaming if that's one's thing. The TPU population is overrepresented by folks who upgrade every or every other year; around five years is much more common (witness the number of 1060s still in use). Our hypothetical buyer has 5,000+ hours of use of the card at this point. It's getting too old for new games, but is still baller for old stuff. So it (hopefully) gets CL'ed or eBay'ed for another five years of use barring failure (ten years is about the point when a vid card starts to become genuinely useless). Original buyer has gotten maybe $200 back in resale, leaving $0.11/hr of utility from their purchase.

I don't have a sense of how long/much/often DAC buyers use their DACs, but would wager that a customer of the Q7 is enough of an audio junkie to have all sorts of listening devices, and doesn't use it for anything near an average of 20h/wk. But let's say they do, and don't succumb to the lure of the shiny and buy a new DAC in the next five years or so. This subject will probably get ten+ years out of it before it's either broken or unsupported or something. In that case, they've gotten $0.075/hr of utility, or $0.065 if they can flip it when they're done with it after those ten years for $100. That's better than $0.11, but not huge all things considered. IMO.

We can also look at it from a materials side. A GA-102 or -104 is an expensive chip; let's ignore any underlying reasons for simplicity's sake. The general consensus seems to be that no one at this point besides perhaps Nvidia is making much margin on sales of cards built around them. They are very complex products, whose selling price is driven very heavily by BOM. This is where my understanding fails in regard to DACs. How much BOM cost is in something like the G7? Fiio is designing and manufacturing these themselves, so it's not directly comparable to GPUs where you've got two visible major parties (chipmaker and AIC) in the equation. My sense is that Fiio is making a bunch of margin on these, along with the rest of the high-end personal audio market, which seems to be in a boom period.

Then there's the quality view. Here's another place where audio and gaming don't 100% compare, because good audio is good audio and has been for decades, and what's considered high-quality graphics is a moving target. The human factors are the same, I feel. Someone who's really into a thing eventually notices small differences and/or deficiencies, and these things matter more and more over time. Your audio nerd can't abide sibilance, or overemphasized bass/mids/treble, or a narrow soundstage, or poor imaging, or what have you. Gaming nerd notices every dropped frame and screen tear, can't stand framerates below 75Hz, hates low-res textures, etc. All of these are things that when presented to 99.9+% of the population would prompt, "What are you even talking about?"

All that's a very long-winded, ranty/rambly way of reiterating that I can't satisfy myself why a little box that contains an admittedly specialized DSP and some op amps costs $750. Yes, I'm grossly oversimplifying the design of a DAC/AMP. The fact that you consider that price point "budget" speaks volumes in and of itself.

EDIT: spelling
 
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This is something of a fraught conversation, because you and I have vastly differing calibrations on value when it comes to audio equipment. You're a pretty big gear head in regard to that stuff, whereas I assign more importance to it than the general population, but probably not by all that much. More than $200 for headphones is too rich for my blood for a point of reference, hence my comment about not being the target market.

Anyway, value is such a slippery thing. You're spot on about longevity of good equipment, and the point about churn in PC land is equally valid. Value, though, largely comes from uitility. Let's take the $750 price point of the Q7. If we stick with GPUs, that'll get you, as of this post, a 3070 ti or 3080. A body can easily clock 20+ hours a week PC gaming if that's one's thing. The TPU population is overrepresented by folks who upgrade every or every other year; around five years is much more common (witness the number of 1060s still in use). Our hypothetical buyer has 5,000+ hours of use of the card at this point. It's getting too old for new games, but is still baller for old stuff. So it (hopefully) gets CL'ed or eBay'ed for another five years of use barring failure (ten years is about the point when a vid card starts to become genuinely useless). Original buyer has gotten maybe $200 back in resale, leaving $0.11/hr of utility from their purchase.

I don't have a sense of how long/much/often DAC buyers use their DACs, but would wager that a customer of the Q7 is enough of an audio junkie to have all sorts of listening devices, and doesn't use it for anything near an average of 20h/wk. But let's say they do, and don't succumb to the lure of the shiny and buy a new DAC in the next five years or so. This subject will probably get ten+ years out of it before it's either broken or unsupported or something. In that case, they've gotten $0.075/hr of utility, or $0.065 if they can flip it when they're done with it after those ten years for $100. That's better than $0.11, but not huge all things considered. IMO.

We can also look at it from a materials side. A GA-102 or -104 is an expensive chip; let's ignore any underlying reasons for simplicity's sake. The general consensus seems to be that no one at this point besides perhaps Nvidia is making much margin on sales of cards built around them. They are very complex products, whose selling price is driven very heavily by BOM. This is where my understanding fails in regard to DACs. How much BOM cost is in something like the G7? Fiio is designing and manufacturing these themselves, so it's not directly comparable to GPUs where you've got two visible major parties (chipmaker and AIC) in the equation. My sense is that Fiio is making a bunch of margin on these, along with the rest of the high-end personal audio market, which seems to be in a boom period.

Then there's the quality view. Here's another place where audio and gaming don't 100% compare, because good audio is good audio and has been for decades, and what's considered high-quality graphics is a moving target. The human factors are the same, I feel. Someone who's really into a thing eventually notices small differences and/or deficiencies, and these things matter more and more over time. Your audio nerd can't abide sibilance, or overemphasized bass/mids/treble, or a narrow soundstage, or poor imaging, or what have you. Gaming nerd notices every dropped frame and screen tear, can't stand framerates below 75Hz, hates low-res textures, etc. All of these are things that when presented to 99.9+% of the population would prompt, "What are you even talking about?"

All that's a very long-winded, ranty/rambly way of reiterating that I can't satisfy myself why a little box that contains an admittedly specialized DSP and some op amps costs $750. Yes, I'm grossly oversimplifying the design of a DAC/AMP. The fact that you consider that price point "budget" speaks volumes in and of itself.

EDIT: spelling
While I get your point let us look at "investments".

I still have a pair of ER4-Ps (the newer option retails for 300 MSRP which is pricey by you) from the 90s. To this date they still crush sets costing tripple as much for their actual use. My best speakers... my dad passed away but these are from the 60s and he spent thousands back then. And that's the thing, they do last. It's not something that's built to last X years, it's built for one and done if you buy a good one. How many video cards have I chewed through since then? If I cared about budget PC gaming would be the first thing to go.

As for FiiO they aren't making the TI chips, the XMOS or the ESS either. Then there are caps, opamps, power, and other things they source. Really you're talking about a handfull of companies that make the quality parts you need for these things and they do charge a premium. Where it differs is really that the audio market lets you go buck wild with what you do with it where GPU makers can be rather strict about it. But you know, that's the fun!

The margins very. You have to keep in mind where the market really exists. Sort of like the GPU market! 4090s are mostly for reviewers, trade shows, people who can waste cash, and pros. The audio market has the same rules. FiiO is making most of it's money on all sorts of products in your 200 buck price range. But they still need that "halo" product. You can sling that at brands like Chord as well which has things that cost 13000 bucks or even more but really just sells rack tons of Mojo2 at 750. Just as nobody is under any illusions that Sennheiser exists of HD 820s at 1800 but is really cranking out 600 and below headphones with their best seller being only 100.

This is "budget" because it is "budget". FiiO is not a high end brand by any stretch of the imagination but they do compete there. This is also not of the same class of their 50-200 DACs that they sell most of. But for a portable DAC/AMP that heats up, really needs a desk, and now cooling (LOL) 750 is the low end. Yet most people do not need that and will not.

If you really want to do this "cheap" you can get a THX/MQA dongle type deal that will power anything below a planar drainer for like 100 and it's night and day from your phone and onboard audio. That's generally what I recommend to most people. Or the schitt stack for like 250 which is a steal for desktop. But product stacks go in different directions and the sky is the limit.

If you wanted a raw desktop setup you can get that at less than half the price for a dual unit, if you just want a pseudo dongle same deal. But this hybrid area is pricey and always has been.
 
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I like the design and looks reminds my Sanyo walkman, and I still have it, works perfectly :)
 
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Someone who's really into a thing eventually notices small differences and/or deficiencies, and these things matter more and more over time. Your audio nerd can't abide sibilance, or overemphasized bass/mids/treble, or a narrow soundstage, or poor imaging, or what have you. Gaming nerd notices every dropped frame and screen tear, can't stand framerates below 75Hz, hates low-res textures, etc. All of these are things that when presented to 99.9+% of the population would prompt, "What are you even talking about?"
The problem is with assuming that performance in audio products scales with price, like it does in GPUs. But, for example, you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to not have overemphasized mids, because even the cheapest DACs have a flat frequency response.
In the GPU market, objective measurements rule and they are a reference point for consumers. The audio market is not like that. Objective audio measurements are still looked at with distrust by many consumers. Then you have outright scams and snake oil products... it's a messy world. It's not all bad for sure, but you're right be skeptical.
 
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The problem is with assuming that performance in audio products scales with price, like it does in GPUs. But, for example, you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to not have overemphasized mids, because even the cheapest DACs have a flat frequency response.
In the GPU market, objective measurements rule and they are a reference point for consumers. The audio market is not like that. Objective audio measurements are still looked at with distrust by many consumers. Then you have outright scams and snake oil products... it's a messy world. It's not all bad for sure, but you're right be skeptical.

Welllllllll...... this is quasi true.

Audio performance does scale with price to an extent. Look at it like this. Throwing a 4090 into a system with an i3 and an old 4:3 720p monitor is a waste of the 4090 and it's not going to do squat. Just as buying a 2500 buck DAC/AMP combo unit and plugging in ye old head phones that came with the older iPhones isn't going to do squat either. In either case you're talking about products that need other products to justify their cost. That 4090 with a beast of a PC feeding it and a 4k 120hz display is going to shine. Just as that 2500 dollar dac/amp is going to shine powering Senny 800 series headphones (and Senny sells dacs in that price range and they are not a company people accuse of selling woo woo by elves in the moonlight). Home Theater Systems aren't viewed as odd and these are the most common audio products most people will splurge on. Yet what reciever you need is going to be defined by "what else do you have, how large the room, have you foamed it?" rather than just "oh get this you'll be fine!".

Objective audio isn't frowned at really it's just the saying is "you have to hear it first" just as with any major TV purchase you're going to want to see it first!

Back to the reviewed product. This is a perfectly good product from a "budget" manufacturer that has always punched well above it's weight class against the snazzier brand. FiiO is not only well known, it's massive, trusted, and often recommended. The price may cause sticker shock for some but is either exactly the same, a bit more, or a good chunk less, than well known competitors such as Chord, ifi, and Earman audio. Featurewise this is outright better than it's competitors, granted those competitors are selling to people who will vomit at the mention of bluetooth or MQA. It's a reasonable price range and for most people in the market it's better than it's competitors. Though as always... try it with the headphones you want to use before you buy it. Most reputable dealers have a 30 day return nothing ask for the products they sell because they are run by audio gearheads who all have used the products they carry. And running hot, bulky, goof looking are sort of the norm in this range so it's not so much a slam as "same shit different day".
 
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Audio performance does scale with price to an extent.
I agree, to an extent that's true. If you take all audio products from the cheapest to the most expensive ones, I think you'll definitely see a positive correlation between performance and price. Although above a very high price point, you might actually start seeing a negative correlation, because then you're in luxury territory, where people buy expensive stuff just because it's expensive and don't even care about performance. (Like luxury phones sprinkled with diamonds which are worse than regular ones, for example.)

But, even in the more competitive price ranges, there's no guarantee that, say, a $200 DAC is going to perform better than a $100 one.
Whereas a positive price/performance correlation is pretty much guaranteed with GPUs. People look at the tests, see the framerates or whatever and decide based on that. There's some irrationality there too, like brand fanboyism, but overall it's a different scene.

On that note, I don't want to trivialize the challenge of accurately measuring performance, be it for audio products or GPUs. I know that not every single aspect of a product can be measured objectively to determine its value to the user. For GPUs there might be disagreements and different tastes when it comes to how a ray tracing implementation looks, for example. Or the preference for drivers and extra features. It's similar for audio, although I think that some products (like DACs and amps, cables...) have such a clearly defined job (convert, carry and amplify the signal in the cleanest way possible) that taste shouldn't play a role. If you want "coloration" of the sound, using effects is the way to do it, IMO.
 
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I agree, to an extent that's true. If you take all audio products from the cheapest to the most expensive ones, I think you'll definitely see a positive correlation between performance and price. Although above a very high price point, you might actually start seeing a negative correlation, because then you're in luxury territory, where people buy expensive stuff just because it's expensive and don't even care about performance. (Like luxury phones sprinkled with diamonds which are worse than regular ones, for example.)

But, even in the more competitive price ranges, there's no guarantee that, say, a $200 DAC is going to perform better than a $100 one.
Whereas a positive price/performance correlation is pretty much guaranteed with GPUs. People look at the tests, see the framerates or whatever and decide based on that. There's some irrationality there too, like brand fanboyism, but overall it's a different scene.

On that note, I don't want to trivialize the challenge of accurately measuring performance, be it for audio products or GPUs. I know that not every single aspect of a product can be measured objectively to determine its value to the user. For GPUs there might be disagreements and different tastes when it comes to how a ray tracing implementation looks, for example. Or the preference for drivers and extra features. It's similar for audio, although I think that some products (like DACs and amps, cables...) have such a clearly defined job (convert, carry and amplify the signal in the cleanest way possible) that taste shouldn't play a role. If you want "coloration" of the sound, using effects is the way to do it, IMO.

Price and performance isn't what really sells GPUs either. We see this each generation where people praise AMD and hope it cuts it's own profits, so nVidia will be cheaper. Then when AMD does this, and nVidia does not lower prices they all go out and buy a more expensive nVidia part that performs the same or worse rather than pick on an AMD card. People will also pay more for some brands than others. Some of this is esoteric custom designs that make no functional difference, other parts of it is stupid nonsense like RGB sync, and other parts of it is not wanting to post pictures of a Zotac when you could have an ASUS! Never mind there is really no true functional difference. This is along the lines of the fact that PC gamers do not need more than a SATA SSD. Yet people routine buy PRO level Samsung and other PCIE SSDs that they honestly can't truly use. Often entirely to post pictures on forums and not wanting to feel shame about stuff or simply just keep up with other people.

Far from being about specs, logic, and rationality PC gaming is one of the most illogical things out there prone to buying stuff that they can't use, stuff that isn't the best from a price or performance status, and doing this repeatedly for years all from a need to keep up with the other people. Audio heads have nothing on PC gamers when it comes to being idiots and trying to outspend each other. Hence current status of crap like 1k monitors.

I'm into PC gaming, audio gear, console gaming, restoring arcades, radios and all sorts of other stuff. I've always been a gear head. Did it for the military, do it as a job. I have a monster of a computer and run rack tons of VMs to stuff I can't get into. So I see every angle of this. And I'm not buying that PC gaming isn't just as full of stupid purchases, snake oil, woo woo, buying shit just to post pictures about it, and complete bullshit than audio stuff is. And in the end, that's all sort of fine. Get what you like, what makes you happy, that's really the point isn't it?

IMHO everything is like this. Was the SOs birthday this weekend and I made A5 wagyu beef and foie gras with figs for her and her sister. You know why it wasn't "good". Because I didn't slice the fucking thing and finish the prep at the table on the fancy wood platter. I didn't do this cause it was in the dish washer. Does this affect the taste, no. But it ruined it for them because it wasn't what they wanted. So hours later we are out drinking rail vodka and slugging cheap oysters but hey it was at the warf and served up fancy and that made all the difference. This is insane and crazy, but it also applies to audio stuff and PC stuff at times.
 
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mtechnic6

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Hi,

We're you able to the Q7 ON USB to go higher than 384k, all the 2ay up to 768k?

If so, how was done and did you here any improvement over 384k?

Thanks!
 
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