Huawei Prepares EUV Scanner for Sub-7 nm Chinese Chips

[AleksandarK]

Huawei, the Chinese technology giant, has reportedly filed patents that it is developing extreme ultraviolet (EUV) scanners for use in the manufacturing process of semiconductors. This news comes amid increasing tensions between Huawei and the US government, which has imposed a series of sanctions on the company in recent years. According to UDN, Huawei has filed a patent that covers the entire EUV scanner with a 13.5 nm EUV light source, mirrors, lithography for printing circuits, and proper system control. While filing a patent is not the same as creating an accurate EUV scanner, it could enable China to produce a class of chips below 7 nm and have a homegrown semiconductor production, despite the ever-increasing US sanctions.

The development of EUV scanners is a significant milestone for Huawei and the semiconductor industry. However, the company's progress in this area may be hindered by the US government's sanctions, which have limited Huawei's access to certain technologies and markets. It is important to note that Chinese SMIC wanted to develop EUV fabrication based on third-party EUV tools; however, those plans were scrapped as the Wassenaar agreement came into action and prohibited the sales of advanced tools to Chinese companies. Huawei's development could represent a new milestone for the entire Chinese industry.



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[ARF]

The Chinese will save the world! They are good people and good workers for the world.

It is time for the island civilisation to leave the areas which are not inside their natural borders.

 

[Wavetrex]

The ASML monopoly is ridiculous, and I don't understand how it is legal.
Governments of the world should force them to share the tech with at least one another (western) company, just like they did with Intel and x86

But anyway, gratz to Huawei for pushing the tech as well !

 

[ARF]

The ASML monopoly is ridiculous, and I don't understand how it is legal.
Governments of the world should force them to share the tech with at least one another (western) company

It doesn't matter, actually. The cartel is there (closed ecosystem), nevertheless, between ASML and its protegees IBM, Apple, Qualcomm, AMD, Intel and nvidia.

 

[Bomby569]

The ASML monopoly is ridiculous, and I don't understand how it is legal.
Governments of the world should force them to share the tech with at least one another (western) company, just like they did with Intel and x86

But anyway, gratz to Huawei for pushing the tech as well !

It isn't a monopoly, other companies make the same products. There is just no one competing at their level.


Anyway good for the Chinese, we need competition. The problem is that ASML depends on a lot of other companies around the world to make their machines. Zeiss being the most notable.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

It isn't a monopoly, other companies make the same products. There is just no one competing at their level.

How much be percentage of market dominance to be called monopoly? I'll suppose enough below 100%.
It's kind of like owning a gold stock and being able to impose yourself on the small shareholders and even make rules for personal use by lobbying congress. It's called abuse of a dominant position.

 

[Bomby569]

How much be percentage of market dominance to be called monopoly? I'll suppose enough below 100%.
It's kind of like owning a gold stock and being able to impose yourself on the small shareholders and even make rules for personal use by lobbying congress. It's called abuse of a dominant position.

if hundreds of companies makes cars but only one of them makes a car that goes 400kms/h is that a monopoly? or dozens make tv panels but only one makes qd oled with whatever best specs?

I don't have the list but there are several competitors making the same products, a quick google search will show them to you.

I don't think you can even remotely call them a monopoly. And it's always evolving, in the next high end revolution they can be left behind, they weren't always the top dog

 

[马嘉伟]

As a Chinese and a Huawei fan, I very much hope that China can have its own complete chip industry chain. But let's be cool. This is just a patent. At present, Arf DUV lithography machine with 193nm wavelength cannot be manufactured in mainland China.

Even if the government is ambitious, it will be far too difficult to produce. The EUV lithography machine may be far away from the Chinese mainland, and I am optimistic that it will be produced by 2030.

 

[Dristun]

ASML has a monopoly in EUV but in less advanced tech they have a lot of competition. I don't agree with Bomby's analogy though: entire markets are now dependent on ASML through supply chains. Saying that enabling production of nearly all smartphones, consoles and all of new hardware for computers, servers, data centers and so on is akin to a niche supercar manufacturer is quite a stretch. They might be overtaken in the future, sure, there are others investing hundreds of millions in tech beyond EUV, which will hit its limits, but so does ASML and they're already in profit.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

ASML has a monopoly in EUV but in less advanced tech they have a lot of competition. I don't agree with Bomby's analogy though: entire markets are now dependent on ASML through supply chains. Saying that enabling production of nearly all smartphones, consoles and all of new hardware for computers, servers, data centers and so on is akin to a niche supercar manufacturer is quite a stretch. They might be overtaken in the future, sure, there are others investing hundreds of millions in tech beyond EUV, which will hit its limits, but so does ASML and they're already in profit.

That's not a monopoly though, it's market dominance and ASML spent billions that others didn't to move their tech forward.
They're not the only scanner maker but they're definitely the best and if Huawei has anything remotely close to performance out in the next five years that's some extremely dubious research they enacted(and I mean acquired via actions not self designed)

 

[TumbleGeorge]

That's not a monopoly though, it's market dominance and ASML spent billions that others didn't to move their tech forward.
They're not the only scanner maker but they're definitely the best and if Huawei has anything remotely close to performance out in the next five years that's some extremely dubious research they enacted(and I mean acquired via actions not self designed)

Reason for that other companies to not spend so much billions maybe is because they didn't have it.
So, they are forced to stay in the markets where they managed to occupy a niche. Thus, in practice, ASML can be no real competition.

 

[Bomby569]

Reason for that other companies to not spend so much billions maybe is because they didn't have it.
So, they are forced to stay in the markets where they managed to occupy a niche. Thus, in practice, ASML can be no real competition.

ASML didn't win the lottery and they dethroned the biggest players. Why can't anyone else do the same?

ASML has a monopoly in EUV but in less advanced tech they have a lot of competition. I don't agree with Bomby's analogy though: entire markets are now dependent on ASML through supply chains. Saying that enabling production of nearly all smartphones, consoles and all of new hardware for computers, servers, data centers and so on is akin to a niche supercar manufacturer is quite a stretch. They might be overtaken in the future, sure, there are others investing hundreds of millions in tech beyond EUV, which will hit its limits, but so does ASML and they're already in profit.

So is TSMC a monopoly? no one can compete with them in the smaller nodes?

The examples are endless, companies with a lot of competition but having an edge. That's not a monopoly in my view.
Any smartphone, console, pc, server, etc... can buy a product that didn't use ASML's products, they just won't be the top tier.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

ASML didn't win the lottery and they dethroned the biggest players. Why can't anyone else do the same?

This is just historical fact. In time when released was more cheaper to do. Now is too late and too expensive to fix maybe wrong decisions of other companies to do not make heavy competition when this was possible.

 

[Bomby569]

This is just historical fact. In time when released was more cheaper to do. Now is too late and too expensive to fix maybe wrong decisions of other companies to do not make heavy competition when this was possible.

That's not the right answer, it's not about money, or better it is if you want to always be chasing ASML like so many do. But this tech is not on a single path, anyone can (and i bet, eventually will) come with a better different tech and it will happen to ASLM what happened to so many other leaders.
But if ASML keeps one step ahead all the time, that's because all the competitors suck, not because they lack money.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Reason for that other companies to not spend so much billions maybe is because they didn't have it.
So, they are forced to stay in the markets where they managed to occupy a niche. Thus, in practice, ASML can be no real competition.

Maybe so then how , where is Huawei research money, what have they spent, when, where.

What patents were filed, do you understand complexity of the EUV light source?! That alone has taken a decade of research and billions in r n d.

Yes ASML have no competition, and.

You want me to bring up all the reasons why and areas in which china/Huawei have no reasonable competition.

 

[Wirko]

Huawei has filed a patent that covers the entire EUV scanner with a 13.5 nm EUV light source, mirrors, lithography for printing circuits, and proper system control.

Huh, they managed to stuff a lot in one patent. Even if it's 3333 pages long.

Patent Page Length (2m Video) - Smith & Hopen

Patent page length (specification, drawings and claims) depends on the amount of information necessary to support the claims of the patent.

smithhopen.com

the world record for this is Micron, Micron Technologies. A decade or so ago got granted a patent on pseudo random number generator that was three thousand three hundred thirty three pages.

The ASML monopoly is ridiculous, and I don't understand how it is legal.
Governments of the world should force them to share the tech with at least one another (western) company, just like they did with Intel and x86

OK, I can agree with that to a large extent. It's ridiculous because it has lasted so long and still there's no competitor apparently in sight. But what should ASML do? Share enough information with Nikon to enable them to build an EUV scanner too? It would still take Nikon several years to actually build the components and the system, and also to build the supply chain.

 

[sephiroth117]

ASML has no competition, not really because of a conspiracy or a cartel but because what this company is doing...well, not many have that knowledge and plans to make a ASML rival can take more than 10 years to really take form

They have competitors but they are not really relevant for modern company's demands compared to ASML.

This is ultra high tech. China has billions and an unlimited workforce (and, let's be honest, state-sponsored patents theft too) to fight ASML

 

[Denver]

The ASML monopoly is ridiculous, and I don't understand how it is legal.
Governments of the world should force them to share the tech with at least one another (western) company, just like they did with Intel and x86

But anyway, gratz to Huawei for pushing the tech as well !

That's not monopoly, it's just being much better than the competition.

 

[erocker]

That's not monopoly, it's just being much better than the competition.

When you don't allow competition, sure. Perpetual winner. Up until someone does it on their own... and if I were that person, I'd make sure that monopoly dies as quickly as possible by offering the tech up to anyone who wants to pay for it.

 

[Chris34]

Reason for that other companies to not spend so much billions maybe is because they didn't have it.
So, they are forced to stay in the markets where they managed to occupy a niche. Thus, in practice, ASML can be no real competition.

Do you realize the other manufacturers that also do Lithography are/include Canon and Nikon? They're not third rate companies with limited cash flow.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Do you realize the other manufacturers that also do Lithography are/include Canon and Nikon? They're not third rate companies with limited cash flow.

I think that you must read me more times. Maybe after ten thousand reads you will be able to understand my point.

 

[Denver]

When you don't allow competition, sure. Perpetual winner. Up until someone does it on their own... and if I were that person, I'd make sure that monopoly dies as quickly as possible by offering the tech up to anyone who wants to pay for it.

What? Who is preventing the competition?

I hope you're not talking about the patents(IP) that cost billions in research investment to obtain.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

What? Who is preventing the competition?

Everything is extremely simple. It doesn't even need to be actively argued that only ASML has the necessary technologies for the bleeding edge, attracting investment and orders. Thus, competing companies have difficulties in raising active capital for the research, design and reorganization of production they need. Think of ASML as a black hole, with gravity engulfing everything in its reach.

 

[Chris34]

I think that you must read me more times. Maybe after ten thousand reads you will be able to understand my point.

You should write more convoluted sentences, maybe people would understand you less clearly.

It's not like other manufacturers of lithography tool don't spend money in EUV R&D and alternatives. Calling ASML a "monopoly" when other Lithography manufacturers clearly didn't manage to pull anything as good as ASML when it comes to EUV is quite retarded. They're not building cranks.
It's only a monopoly because they're the only one who could pull it off, they're not in a monopoly position because they undermined other manufacturers. Like Apple, Google and the like do to keep they products in a dominant position.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241200651_Development_of_EUV_lithography_tools_at_Nikon

Canon prepares to ramp nano-imprint lithography

After eight year of R&D Canon is preparing to ramp production of nanoimprint lithography chip manufacturing equipment.

www.eenewseurope.com

 

[PhantomTaco]

Some thoughts on the article itself:

• Fundamentally, at best Huawei has filed a patent for about ONE THIRD of an EUV lithography tool. These tools are normally broken up into 3 core components: Scanner (Where the wafers are and the patterning happens), Source (where the actual EUV light is generated), and the Drive Laser (where the lasers are generated and amplified to create the light in the Source). The Scanner section is the part "most similar" to traditional DUV lithography. So among all the parts, this is the part that is the least foreign/different.
• This may seem like a major milestone, but to me at least it's not really that big a deal. This is a patent showing how they would go about making it, but that's more akin to step -1. If you think about it, there is so much more to these tools than just the design alone. Let's remember for a moment that the goal of these tools is to fire two lasers to hit a single droplet of tin with a diameter smaller than a human hair TWICE. The light that's created from this then has to be reflected AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE into the scanner, positioned properly and then passed through a reticle and then down onto a wafer. This happens 50,000 TIMES A SECOND. Think about that for a minute. How much complexity is involved with maintaining this process PERFECTLY? There is ludicrous amounts of programming, timing, and environmental monitoring that has to go into just making sure this whole process is done properly, and they've filed a patent for a single section of the entire tool.

On the discussion of a monopoly: there really isn't any argument/question here. ASML is a monopoly. More specifically, ASML is considered either a Natural Monopoly or a Pure Monopoly. Taken from Investopedia:

A natural monopoly develops in reliance on unique raw materials, technology, or specialization. Companies that have patents or extensive research and development costs such as pharmaceutical companies are considered natural monopolies.

A pure monopoly is a single seller in a market or sector with high barriers to entry such as significant startup costs whose product has no substitutes.

(Source)

This defines ASML PERFECTLY. Globally, it's not like (outside of China) are actively prevented from being able to develop their own tooling. In fact competitors mentioned earlier like Nikon and Cannon back in the day were actively developing their own EUV designs, however the ludicrous amount of money needed to R&D these tools dissuaded them (Source). However, for a company to be in a monopoly position doesn't rely on nefarious intent, it's not the inputs that matter, merely the final result/state of the market.

If China/Chinese companies are able to develop their own EUV tooling, power to them I guess. The bigger question here will be whether or not they're doing so without peeking at ASML's designs, it's well known within industry (not only this industry but dozens of others) that Chinese companies are more than happy to "co-opt" designs/schematics/IP from other foreign companies and use it as a basis for their own.