AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Series Prices Revealed, Available Feb 28

[HD64G]

I would not call a product overprized if it is still at the same price as it's predecessor. The Problem for AMD are not the CPU prices but the decision to go DDR5 only and the cost that is implied to motherboards by this. For AMD the overall platform price sucks, the CPU pricing is OK.

Agreed but we all knew beforehand that DDR5 will be the future in PC. My only complaint is the motherboard pricing. RAM will get much cheaper later on as happened with all DDR generations transitions.

 

[THU31]

Agreed but we all knew beforehand that DDR5 will be the future in PC. My only complaint is the motherboard pricing. RAM will get much cheaper later on as happened with all DDR generations transitions.

AMD made the right decision in the long run. It hurt the sales, but anyone who buys Zen 4 has a more future-looking platform with an upgrade path.

You can save money buying Intel with DDR4, but then you'll have to replace everything in a few years. With AMD, you'll only have to replace the CPU.

So if you want to save money now, you might as well buy AM4 with the 5800X3D, which is still on par with the newest CPUs, but much cheaper. But then you'll have a similar dilemma at the end of the AM5 life cycle, when you'll be thinking of upgrading. Although I doubt we'll be seeing DDR6 with the next AMD socket (AM5+ maybe?). It'll be too early, I think.

 

[ixi]

I would not call a product overprized if it is still at the same price as it's predecessor. The Problem for AMD are not the CPU prices but the decision to go DDR5 only and the cost that is implied to motherboards by this. For AMD the overall platform price sucks, the CPU pricing is OK.

6core for 470e? Feeling like I'm back with intel from 2011.

 

[Colddecked]

This price is VAT excluded. And yes since you obviously can't find 7800X3D at used price for now.



"crush"

View attachment 282449

You can brag all you want, 9900x or 5700x is not the point here. The point is that the cost/performance ratio of the 7800x is nowhere near as much competitive with older gens CPUs/platforms, especially if you take into account that DDR5 and AM5 motherboards are also very expensive compared to DDR4/AM4.

So you've proven CPU doesn't matter that much with CP2077 at 4k. Thank you for that revelation.

 

[piffdaddy]

They lowered the price because they arent behind in performance vs Intel. If the 7800x3d is only 450 dollars it's bad news. It means it's not that much better.

Not true I don't think. Have you seen how dismal CPU and motherboard sales have been in the last year? They're lowering prices because they have to. That's why Intel had lower prices to begin with. This year has been brutal for hardware sales for PC

 

[Nhonho]

As I wrote in another thread:

In my view, AMD made a series of bad decisions on this Ryzen 7000 series (such as the lack of compatibility with DDR4 memories and socket AM4) and Radeons RDNA3 offboard graphics cards with MCM scheme. A GPU die necessarily needs to be a single die to have the lowest possible latencies.

In this Ryzen 7000 generation, AMD should have made the CPU in a single die, with 2 MB of L2 cache per x86 core and with only 40 MB of L3. When the memory controller is on the same die of the x86 cores, the x86 cores have a very fast memory access (the fastest possible) and thus AMD CPUs would not need to have huge (and expensive) amounts of L3 cache memory. With 2 MB of L2 cache per x86 core, 40 MB of L3 on a CPU that has direct access to RAM is equivalent to ~80 MB of L3 on a CPU that has an intermediate chip between the x86 cores and the memory RAM. The main die (the CPU die that has the memory controller integrated) should be like this and, to increase the amount of x86 cores, it would be enough to add a chiplet of x86 cores, and the operating systems should be optimized to use mainly the cores of the main die.

And AMD should put the SATA controllers, USB controllers and other components on the chipset die that don't need to be made in an expensive lithography.

This image represents what I said about how Ryzen CPUs should be made:

 

[Tomorrow]

In my view, AMD made a series of bad decisions on this Ryzen 7000 series

Yes on that i agree. But the bad decisions i refer to are the stupidly thick IHS that is more of a barrier to thermal transfer (supposedly for AM4 cooler compatibility but still). Then including iGPU with every chip. I would have taken extra cores or extra cache gladly instead of a useless 2CU iGPU that can only display desktop.

AMD already has APU's (well not Zen 4 ones yet). I bet they included this useless iGPU because OEM's wanted it.
Also the initial pricing for Ryzen 7 models was absurd (Ryzen 9 was surprisingly reasonable).

(such as the lack of compatibility with DDR4 memories and socket AM4)

Well eventually DDR4 and AM4 would be left behind. Im kinda glad they did it in one go instead of confusing mess of DDR4/DDR5 support and both LGA and PGA versions of 7000 series.

and Radeons RDNA3 offboard graphics cards with MCM scheme.

This is only the first generation. First generation Zen 1 was also not great. Give it some time to mature instead of asking to cancel it right away.
If you are referring to the iGPU then i see it as near useless for enthusiast class desktop CPU's. I mean i have several discrete cards laying around and so do most enthusiasts who would buy 7000 series CPU.

A GPU die necessarily needs to be a single die to have the lowest possible latencies.

In this Ryzen 7000 generation, AMD should have made the CPU in a single die, with 2 MB of L2 cache per x86 core and with only 40 MB of L3. When the memory controller is on the same die of the x86 cores, the x86 cores have a very fast memory access (the fastest possible) and thus AMD CPUs would not need to have huge (and expensive) amounts of L3 cache memory.

L3 is cheaper than L2. It does add cost but not by that much. Plus it's always a balancing act. You cant just inscrease L2 by 2x without increasing it's latency. The whole architecture needs to account for that. The extra L3 on X3D chips did increase latency but thankfully not by much.

And AMD should put the SATA controllers, USB controllers and other components on the chipset die that don't need to be made in an expensive lithography.

I was already under the impression that all SATA connectivity comes from the chipset. But that's more on AsMedia than AMD for not including high speed standards in the chipset. Also in terms of system latency it's not good if for example mouse is connected to a USB port that comes from the chipset. Same with keyboard. So some should come from the CPU direct. Same with at least one M.2 slot for OS.

 

[sLowEnd]

AMD made the right decision in the long run. It hurt the sales, but anyone who buys Zen 4 has a more future-looking platform with an upgrade path.

You can save money buying Intel with DDR4, but then you'll have to replace everything in a few years. With AMD, you'll only have to replace the CPU.

So if you want to save money now, you might as well buy AM4 with the 5800X3D, which is still on par with the newest CPUs, but much cheaper. But then you'll have a similar dilemma at the end of the AM5 life cycle, when you'll be thinking of upgrading. Although I doubt we'll be seeing DDR6 with the next AMD socket (AM5+ maybe?). It'll be too early, I think.

Eh, one would probably want to upgrade RAM anyway if they do upgrade the CPU later on in AM5's lifecycle. Chances are pretty good the DDR5 generally available today (i.e. not the super expensive top shelf stuff) would be like using DDR4-2400 or DDR4-2666 with a Zen 3 chip. It "works", but hopefully the desire to save on RAM is stronger than the desire to get the most out of the CPU upgrade.

 

[THU31]

Eh, one would probably want to upgrade RAM anyway if they do upgrade the CPU later on in AM5's lifecycle. Chances are pretty good the DDR5 generally available today (i.e. not the super expensive top shelf stuff) would be like using DDR4-2400 or DDR4-2666 with a Zen 3 chip. It "works", but hopefully the desire to save on RAM is stronger than the desire to get the most out of the CPU upgrade.

But how would you upgrade RAM if you had a motherboard with DDR4 slots? Motherboards supporting two memory standards are not really a thing anymore.

Upgrading the memory also depends on the CPU and whether they can make the infinity fabric any faster. The thing is, DDR5-6000 will still be ok for future Ryzen CPUs, while DDR4 would completely cripple them. It already kind of does it with Intel, many new games are starting to show significant benefits from DDR5, especially with ray tracing.
And it's still so much easier to just replace the memory instead of the motherboard. The latter can even render your Windows activation key useless.

On Intel you have no upgrade path anyway, so you can save money going with DDR4. If you want to save money on AMD, just go with AM4. You don't buy the newest hardware if you're looking for the highest value.

 

[armit]

You can begin with quoting the correct price.
View attachment 281887

What did you expect lol? Comparing new with used, way to go. Buying used is usually very cost effective overall.

The effectiveness of 3D cache has many limitations. Zen 4 has an Intel 11.5th Gen IPC.

 

[Nhonho]

Then including iGPU with every chip. I would have taken extra cores or extra cache gladly instead of a useless 2CU iGPU that can only display desktop.

I also think the Ryzen 7000's iGPU is useless. People pay for it but don't use it. It only serves to increase the cost of manufacturing of the die.

That iGPU would only be useful if it had a lot of CUs and had something extremely attractive, like encode AV1 videos.

Well eventually DDR4 and AM4 would be left behind. Im kinda glad they did it in one go instead of confusing mess of DDR4/DDR5 support and both LGA and PGA versions of 7000 series.

I think AMD should have released some models of Ryzen 7000 CPUs for socket AM4. So we would only need to change the CPU and not almost the entire PC. And AMD only makes money by selling CPUs, GPUs and chipsets. The expensive DDR5 memories decrease a lot the sales of Ryzen 7000 CPUs and motherboard chipsets. If there were Ryzen 7000 AM4 models, it would be good for both AMD and consumers. I think AMD still has time to release Ryzen 7000 AM4 models. AMD might even release models of Ryzen 9000 AM4 that it would sell a lot of CPUs.

This is only the first generation. First generation Zen 1 was also not great. Give it some time to mature instead of asking to cancel it right away.

I think the GPU MCM scheme will never work fine. I think GPUs need to be single-die and have a lot of cache memory, like Nvidia did with the RTX 4000 GPUs, to have the lowest possible latencies.

L3 is cheaper than L2. It does add cost but not by that much. Plus it's always a balancing act. You cant just inscrease L2 by 2x without increasing it's latency. The whole architecture needs to account for that. The extra L3 on X3D chips did increase latency but thankfully not by much.

Can you post here a link that shows that the L2 cache is more expensive to manufacture than the L3? These chiplets made with this 3D L3 memory (made with TSVs) must have a very high rate of defective dies, which makes the other dies that were manufactured perfectly even more expensive.

I was already under the impression that all SATA connectivity comes from the chipset. But that's more on AsMedia than AMD for not including high speed standards in the chipset.

I think at least 4 SATA ports and the high speed USBs come from the Ryzen "IO-die" and not from the chipset.

Also in terms of system latency it's not good if for example mouse is connected to a USB port that comes from the chipset. Same with keyboard. So some should come from the CPU direct. Same with at least one M.2 slot for OS.

We are talking about a few nanoseconds (ns) only, not milliseconds...

AMD engineers need to do the calculations to discover if it's more advantageous to integrate all components (SATA, USB, etc) into the CPU (making it a SoC single die), or it is cheaper to put some components on the chipset (components that don't need to be made in such an advanced and expensive lithography).

And if the CPU is a SoC, the time, complexity and cost of manufacturing motherboards can be less.

 

[AnotherReader]

I also think the Ryzen 7000's iGPU is useless. People pay for it but don't use it. It only serves to increase the cost of manufacturing of the die.

That iGPU would only be useful if it had a lot of CUs and had something extremely attractive, like encode AV1 videos.

The iGPU is in the IO die and the IO die is likely to be pad limited. In that case, adding a small iGPU wouldn't increase the die size at all. Even if it isn't pad limited, the iGPU is likely to be very small. You should also explore perspectives besides that of the typical enthusiast. The addition of an iGPU makes Zen 4 more attractive to OEM builders like HP and Lenovo.

 

[THU31]

I think AMD should have released some models of Ryzen 7000 CPUs for socket AM4. So we would only need to change the CPU and not almost the entire PC. And AMD only makes money by selling CPUs, GPUs and chipsets. The expensive DDR5 memories decrease a lot the sales of Ryzen 7000 CPUs and motherboard chipsets. If there were Ryzen 7000 AM4 models, it would be good for both AMD and consumers. I think AMD still has time to release Ryzen 7000 AM4 models. AMD might even release models of Ryzen 9000 AM4 that it would sell a lot of CPUs.

You really think AMD wants to sell those expensive 5 nm chiplets in high quantities on desktops? No. They want them for Epyc, where the real money is.

A sliver was released on desktop with the highest margins possible just to satisfy the demand for new hardware for those willing to pay.

Why do you think the new GPUs are so expensive? Because they literally don't want to sell them. Why sell a $1600 RTX 4090, when you can sell a workstation version for three times as much, where the demand is so much higher.

Desktops are a tiny fraction of the overall market. New manufacturing tech is very expensive with limited throughput. Desktops are at the very bottom of the priority list.

Once the initial demand in professional markets gets satisfied and the supply of chips is increasing, desktops get cheaper products to start driving the supply down.

All these corporations care about is margins, and the highest margins are on servers, workstations and mobile devices. Desktop is the least profitable market.

 

[AnotherReader]

All these corporations care about is margins, and the highest margins are on servers, workstations and mobile devices. Desktop is the least profitable market.

Margins are no substitute for more revenue. A lower margin, but higher revenue part can have more overall profit.

 

[Nhonho]

The addition of an iGPU makes Zen 4 more attractive to OEM builders like HP and Lenovo.

As I said, the Ryzen 7000's iGPU should have something extremely attractive, like AV1 encoding. That alone would boost Ryzen 7000 sales nicely.

The absence of AV1 encoding on the iGPU was one of the several bad decisions AMD made on this Ryzen 7000 and offboard Radeon RDNA3 GPUs generation.

 

[THU31]

Margins are no substitute for more revenue. A lower margin, but higher revenue part can have more overall profit.

Not at product launch, with limited and expensive production lines. I don't think you realize how little profit there is in the desktop market compared to all the other ones. Plus they need to get rid of all the previous products, which takes a while.

I used to work for a corporation, so I know well how they think.

 

[AnotherReader]

As I said, the Ryzen 7000's iGPU should have something extremely attractive, like AV1 encoding. That alone would boost Ryzen 7000 sales nicely.

The absence of AV1 encoding on the iGPU was one of the several bad decisions AMD made on this Ryzen 7000 and offboard Radeon RDNA3 GPUs generation.

Again, you're thinking of this from an enthusiast's perspective. We make up a rather small part of the market. All of the RDNA3 discrete GPUs support AV1 encode.

 

[Nhonho]

Not at product launch, with limited and expensive production lines. I don't think you realize how little profit there is in the desktop market compared to all the other ones. Plus they need to get rid of all the previous products, which takes a while.

I used to work for a corporation, so I know well how they think.

AMD spent a lot of money to develop the Ryzen 7000 and it is selling them very little, and AMD needs to recoup the money spent on the Ryzen 7000 developing. In my view, one way for AMD to sell well in the home market is launching new Ryzen 7000 and 9000 CPUs for socket AM4.
And, today, DDR4 3600 CL16 memories are cheap and I think they have enough performance for the Ryzen 7000 and future Ryzen 9000.

All of the RDNA3 discrete GPUs support AV1 encode.

Yes, but I'm talkin about Ryzen 7000's iGPUs.

 

[THU31]

AMD spent a lot of money to develop the Ryzen 7000 and it is selling them very little, and AMD needs to recoup the money spent on the Ryzen 7000 developing. In my view, one way for AMD to sell well in the home market is launching new Ryzen 7000 and 9000 CPUs for socket AM4.
And, today, DDR4 3600 CL16 memories are cheap and I think they have enough performance for the Ryzen 7000 and future Ryzen 9000.

Did you read my post before the one you quoted? Doesn't look like it.

They spent a lot of money to develop Zen 4, not Ryzen 7000. They don't want to sell Ryzen 7000 right now, they want to sell this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_4#Server and this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_4#Mobile

 

[Tomorrow]

Again, you're thinking of this from an enthusiast's perspective. We make up a rather small part of the market. All of the RDNA3 discrete GPUs support AV1 encode.

Having AV1 is not enthusiast feature. It's baffling that the iGPU does not support it.

 

[AnotherReader]

Having AV1 is not enthusiast feature. It's baffling that the iGPU does not support it.

AV1 encode is an enthusiast feature. AV1 decode isn't and the IGP supports that.

 

[Tomorrow]

AV1 encode is an enthusiast feature. AV1 decode isn't and the IGP supports that.

View attachment 285184

So every streamer is an enthusiast now?

 

[AnotherReader]

So every streamer is an enthusiast now?

Yes, most streamers would be classified as enthusiasts.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yes, most streamers would be classified as enthusiasts.

Based on what exactly?

 

[AnotherReader]

Based on what exactly?

We are going off topic so if you want to continue this, we can discuss this via PM.