Ryzen Owners Zen Garden

[trparky]

I do have a habit of playing unoptimized games that need maximum single threaded performance to get better than a slide show in fps.

There's only one game that I have in my library that needs serious single-threaded performance and that's Starcraft 2. My God, its code is absolute shit.

You'd think that by now Blizzard would fix that dumpster fire but no, almost a decade later and it's the same shitty single-threaded code.

 

[tabascosauz]

I'm all for not needing the absolute best hardware. I don't need to keep up with the Jones's. I do have a habit of playing unoptimized games that need maximum single threaded performance to get better than a slide show in fps.

Going from the 5950x to a 5800x3d would give me 30% more fps and I have been strongly considering it. A 7800x3d could provide 40-45% improvement which would finally provide nearly acceptable performance.

30% in avg fps seems kinda optimistic outside of outliers like MSFS and Factorio. 5800X3D generally offers a smoother experience but it's not universal. Never underestimate unoptimized games' ability to run like shit to overpower 5800X3D's ability to make games smooth.

Though, if you are considering a 5800X3D then like me I guess those cores really weren't essential to your use case anyways. The prices have come down, figure you could make the upgrade without much extra cost after selling 5950X.

There's only one game that I have in my library that needs serious single-threaded performance and that's Starcraft 2. My God, its code is absolute shit.

imma be honest, I keep hearing people rave about how the X3D saves SC2, but it really hasn't been my experience in custom games at least. What bogs down regular Vermeer to poor framerates (ie. 20fps) will equally bog down Vermeer-X. Maybe it's just me since I basically don't boot up SC2 anymore except for zombie mods with 1000+ units onscreen, but at the same time the 5900X never really struggled either outside of those specific circumstances.

But agreed, SC2 runs like shit and makes proper use of neither the CPU nor GPU resources it's given.

 

[trparky]

But agreed, SC2 runs like shit and makes proper use of neither the CPU nor GPU resources it's given.

That's because it's a single-threaded beast. One world thread and maybe a second thread, but that's it. It's an absolute dumpster fire under the hood.

It runs great on my 7700X but then again, it should; even late into a game with what I call "battleship run". (I beat the snot out of the AI with an all-out battleship run.) I mean, it's running at 5.2 GHz nominal.

This system better run Diablo 4 with good FPS or I'm going to be pissed. I built this new system to run that game when it comes out.

 

[AusWolf]

30% in avg fps seems kinda optimistic outside of outliers like MSFS and Factorio. 5800X3D generally offers a smoother experience but it's not universal. Never underestimate unoptimized games' ability to run like shit to overpower 5800X3D's ability to make games smooth.

Though, if you are considering a 5800X3D then like me I guess those cores really weren't essential to your use case anyways. The prices have come down, figure you could make the upgrade without much extra cost after selling 5950X.



imma be honest, I keep hearing people rave about how the X3D saves SC2, but it really hasn't been my experience in custom games at least. What bogs down regular Vermeer to poor framerates (ie. 20fps) will equally bog down Vermeer-X. Maybe it's just me since I basically don't boot up SC2 anymore except for zombie mods with 1000+ units onscreen, but at the same time the 5900X never really struggled either outside of those specific circumstances.

But agreed, SC2 runs like shit and makes proper use of neither the CPU nor GPU resources it's given.

People (myself included) tend to put a bucket load of resource into building better PCs to run games, but let's never forget that the ultimate limitation on how well a game runs is the game code itself.

 

[Mussels]

why are we always unhappy with what we have, and chase numbers

The moment i got ADHD medication my shopping urgers and need to have the best evaporated
Now i get the satisfaction of what i own being tweaked to efficiency and performance extremes, but without that weird itch to buy moar

Going from the 5950x to a 5800x3d would give me 30% more fps

Depending on the game, the changes are massive. Especially if you dont run ultra settings or use DLSS, that max FPS ceiling goes way up - and the reviews that show these insane performance arent using curve optimiser or undervolting so the gains are bigger than they seem from even those

 

[dont whant to set it"']

Anyone in the know at what time today the Ryzens 7000x3d nda embargo expires for reviews?

 

[Chomiq]

Anyone in the know at what time today the Ryzens 7000x3d nda embargo expires for reviews?

I know but if I told you I'd have to kill you.

 

[Nordic]

30% in avg fps seems kinda optimistic outside of outliers like MSFS and Factorio. 5800X3D generally offers a smoother experience but it's not universal. Never underestimate unoptimized games' ability to run like shit to overpower 5800X3D's ability to make games smooth.

I am not saying 30% in every game, but I do know for exact it provides 30% in one specific game I play.

 

[AusWolf]

Question: Do low-profile passive coolers exist for AM4?

I have a spare R3 3100 + B550 board that I'm thinking about putting into my HTPC that has an i7-11700, and sell the i7 instead (I don't need 8 cores to watch films). My other HTPC has an Arctic Alpine 12 Passive which cools the 35-Watt i7-4765T brilliantly, and because the tiny R3 doesn't need more than 50-55 W at full load, I thought I'd try something similar.

Unfortunately, the Alpine AM4 Passive has been discontinued, and there doesn't seem to be a replacement. The other option I thought about is using my be quiet Shadow Rock LP without a fan (the PSU fan is right above it anyway), but I'm not sure if a 4-heatpipe design would work well on a chiplet CPU due to the offset location of the compute die. Any ideas?

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

How high can it be?

There is one that is 113mm (NoFan CR-80EH). If you need one that is really low profile just get a standard LP cooler, leave the fan off, and tweak until you can run without throttling.

 

[AusWolf]

How high can it be?

According to the case's (Silverstone Sugo SG11) web page, 82 mm.

If you need one that is really low profile just get a standard LP cooler, leave the fan off, and tweak until you can run without throttling.

That's something I thought about as well, as the PSU fan is basically right above the CPU cooler (a little bit offset to the back side, but still).

 

[Norton]

According to the case's (Silverstone Sugo SG11) web page, 82 mm.

An AMD Wraith Prism is 80mm with the fan and rated for 105 or 125w. I have one on a 1700 downclocked to 3.2Ghz and it's running full load only 54C/55 watts/800 rpm on the fan. You could probably run without the fan since the 3100 is only half the cores/threads.

Edit- the case and the cooler are also overdue for a cleaning!

 

[AusWolf]

An AMD Wraith Prism is 80mm with the fan and rated for 105 or 125w. I have one on a 1700 downclocked to 3.2Ghz and it's running full load only 54C/55 watts/800 rpm on the fan. You could probably run without the fan since the 3100 is only half the cores/threads.

I guess that could work... or I could just try my Shadow Rock LP and see how it goes. I just thought about getting something that's actually designed for passive use. The Arctic I linked above has thicker fins and a wider gap between them so the hot air has more room to escape.

Don't get me wrong, even the Wraith Stealth that came in the box isn't loud at all. I just have a weird fetish for passively cooled stuff.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Are you running case fans? The thicker fins with wider gaps are for convection, but even one fan at low RPM upsets that entirely.

The whole "hot air rises" bit only matters until you turn on a fan.

 

[AusWolf]

Are you running case fans? The thicker fins with wider gaps are for convection, but even one fan at low RPM upsets that entirely.

The whole "hot air rises" bit only matters until you turn on a fan.

True. The PSU fan is right above it, so I guess I'll try my Shadow Rock LP without its fan, and see how it goes.

 

[tabascosauz]

I guess that could work... or I could just try my Shadow Rock LP and see how it goes. I just thought about getting something that's actually designed for passive use. The Arctic I linked above has thicker fins and a wider gap between them so the hot air has more room to escape.

Don't get me wrong, even the Wraith Stealth that came in the box isn't loud at all. I just have a weird fetish for passively cooled stuff.

Are there really any decent tiny coolers designed to be passive, though? The NH-P1 as well as those whole-case passive cases give a pretty good idea of the compromises necessary to achieve true fanless cooling. If you use something like a Shadow Rock LP or L12S you can just run the fan at really low speeds - even a little bit of airflow can make a big difference over zero airflow.

As for the SG11 specifically, it basically a SG05 or SG13-layout case but wider to accommodate the mATX board. In the SG05 I used to use a L9x65 at rather low rpms to cool a i3-4160 and i7-4790K. iirc 4160 is similar to 4765T in power and was fine. 4790K needed to come down to 3.5GHz.

The 4765T and 3100 should be closer than you think. 4765T is about 55W under full load. 3100 is warmer on account of not being Zen 3 but so is Haswell on account of the shitty toothpaste under the IHS.

If you had an SG05 I'd be pretty confident in running a passive Shadow Rock LP using front 120mm intake airflow and the PSU as exhaust. In the SG11 I'm not quite so sure, based on the airflow path in there.

 

[AusWolf]

Are there really any decent tiny coolers designed to be passive, though? The NH-P1 as well as those whole-case passive cases give a pretty good idea of the compromises necessary to achieve true fanless cooling. If you use something like a Shadow Rock LP or L12S you can just run the fan at really low speeds - even a little bit of airflow can make a big difference over zero airflow.

The NH-P1 is a big cooler for high-power CPUs. The tiny 3100 is nothing of the sort. It doesn't need anything decent, just something that works. Like I said, even the factory Wraith Stealth keeps it cool enough, and with not a lot of noise, either. The only reason I want to try something passive is because why the heck not.

4765T is about 55W under full load.

Nah, it's a 35 W CPU from the era when CPUs topped out at their rated clock speeds without ever reaching power limits. It also has a central monolithic die which the 3100 doesn't, so it's dead easy to cool. It currently sits under the above-linked Arctic Passive block in another SFF case and never crosses 60 °C.

If you had an SG05 I'd be pretty confident in running a passive Shadow Rock LP using front 120mm intake airflow and the PSU as exhaust. In the SG11 I'm not quite so sure, based on the airflow path in there.

The SG11 has side cut-outs and top 80 mm fans, so it's more like a "from sides to top" airflow path. Now you just made me think that the Shadow Rock LP might actually work in a side-to-side fin orientation relative to the case, which I think is its default positioning on AMD sockets anyway. I'll definitely have to give it a go now.

 

[tabascosauz]

The NH-P1 is a big cooler for high-power CPUs. The tiny 3100 is nothing of the sort. It doesn't need anything decent, just something that works. Like I said, even the factory Wraith Stealth keeps it cool enough, and with not a lot of noise, either. The only reason I want to try something passive is because why the heck not.

Not even the P1 is not nearly as impressive as its size suggests - even with an extra A12x25 it lands around the Wraith Prism and low profile coolers like the L12S. Without a fan, a ~60W 3100 is probably about the appropriate power draw before it starts hitting Tjmax.

Nah, it's a 35 W CPU from the era when CPUs topped out at their rated clock speeds without ever reaching power limits. It also has a central monolithic die which the 3100 doesn't, so it's dead easy to cool. It currently sits under the above-linked Arctic Passive block in another SFF case and never crosses 60 °C.

I was under the impression that it will hit 45-55W under actual full load - but you are correct, for typical HTPC jobs 35W is probably about accurate

Intel's Haswell - An HTPC Perspective: Media Playback, 4K and QuickSync Evaluated

www.anandtech.com

SG11 is a bit tight on either side of the board so dunno if it's there's space to jam a small fan in there, but the PSU fan should take care of things. Still, just having the Be Quiet fan in there at minimum rpm should be a noticeable benefit

 

[Mussels]

Question: Do low-profile passive coolers exist for AM4?

I have a spare R3 3100 + B550 board that I'm thinking about putting into my HTPC that has an i7-11700, and sell the i7 instead (I don't need 8 cores to watch films). My other HTPC has an Arctic Alpine 12 Passive which cools the 35-Watt i7-4765T brilliantly, and because the tiny R3 doesn't need more than 50-55 W at full load, I thought I'd try something similar.

Unfortunately, the Alpine AM4 Passive has been discontinued, and there doesn't seem to be a replacement. The other option I thought about is using my be quiet Shadow Rock LP without a fan (the PSU fan is right above it anyway), but I'm not sure if a 4-heatpipe design would work well on a chiplet CPU due to the offset location of the compute die. Any ideas?

Theres a lot of coolers that fit out there, just that they're not AM4 specific

One obvious thing is that you can get a cooler with a fan and just remove the fan, if its truly low wattage (shadow rock LP was going to be my suggestion)

Shadow rock has a solid baseplate

the 212 for example has many variants that go from direct heatpipe with gaps, to direct heatpipe with tiny gaps, to baseplates like that above

There are less known brands like alpenfohn, too

Designed for the fan to go "under" the heatsink

I wont even list all the noctua options, but they have a lot of sizes and heights

And y'know, it's AM4. Adjust your PBO settings or run an all core underclock. Eco mode, limiting to <45W etc will keep heat down on a tiny cooler.
People forget you can set a temperature limit too, with cTDP

 

[YautjaLord]

It took me something like ages between this post & my last before i, well, disappeared. My mobo (X570 Aorus Xtreme) - how shall i put it - died, so i had to buy same one. Yes, same X570 Aorus Xtreme. Again.
Anyway, here's the pic of my current build:


All stock, except for RAM - 4000MHz on that one. So far Cinebench R15 & R20 run stable. Also runs Quake II RTX in 3840x2160 maxxed out @ 39/40-ish fps.

 

[Mussels]

Just had fun arguing with someone yet again that doesnt want to accept reality about AM5 and the slow boot issues that plague some users


Well, for one: these people are runing RAM setups that are way out of f_cking spec
AMD Ryzen™ 9 7950X3D Gaming Processor | AMD

I just saw someone bitching their 128GB of DDR5 6000 didnt work on their AM5 rig.
Well.... no shit?

You can overclock and get above those values, but you sure AF dont expect above them to "just work"

 

[AusWolf]

Not even the P1 is not nearly as impressive as its size suggests - even with an extra A12x25 it lands around the Wraith Prism and low profile coolers like the L12S. Without a fan, a ~60W 3100 is probably about the appropriate power draw before it starts hitting Tjmax.

Oh really? That's disappointing.

SG11 is a bit tight on either side of the board so dunno if it's there's space to jam a small fan in there, but the PSU fan should take care of things. Still, just having the Be Quiet fan in there at minimum rpm should be a noticeable benefit

It currently has the Shadow Rock LP in it with its fan, and literally zero space left between the cooler (with the fan) and the PSU. It's fine with the i7-11700, but whether it's still fine with the 3100 and no fan, I'll have to try and see, I guess.

Theres a lot of coolers that fit out there, just that they're not AM4 specific

One obvious thing is that you can get a cooler with a fan and just remove the fan, if its truly low wattage (shadow rock LP was going to be my suggestion)

Shadow rock has a solid baseplate
View attachment 285776

the 212 for example has many variants that go from direct heatpipe with gaps, to direct heatpipe with tiny gaps, to baseplates like that above

I had a 212 (the no gap iteration) back in the Bulldozer era and it was awesome. The direct contact really helped back then, but I'm not sure if it's any good with chiplet CPUs, as only some of the heatpipes touch the area where the compute die is. The coolers you listed all look great, but since none of them are specifically designed for passive use, I might as well just stay with the Shadow Rock LP, I guess.

And y'know, it's AM4. Adjust your PBO settings or run an all core underclock. Eco mode, limiting to <45W etc will keep heat down on a tiny cooler.
People forget you can set a temperature limit too, with cTDP

Yep, that's definitely an option, too.

Just had fun arguing with someone yet again that doesnt want to accept reality about AM5 and the slow boot issues that plague some users


Well, for one: these people are runing RAM setups that are way out of f_cking spec
AMD Ryzen™ 9 7950X3D Gaming Processor | AMD

View attachment 285907

I just saw someone bitching their 128GB of DDR5 6000 didnt work on their AM5 rig.
Well.... no shit?

You can overclock and get above those values, but you sure AF dont expect above them to "just work"

Agreed. Besides, the boot time before the POST screen appears on my setup with 2x 16 GB 6000 MHz kits is exactly 28 seconds. How many times does one turn on their PC in an average day? Does waiting for 28 seconds really hurt so bad? As for me, I don't even notice it.

 

[Mussels]

the boot time before the POST screen appears on my setup with 2x 16 GB 6000 MHz kits is exactly 28 seconds

Now that IS a long time - but you knew you signed up for that by choosing ram that fast
(Just make sure its actually running at that speed and hasn't reverted back to a safe mode JEDEC on you)

A 15 second or so boot time is nothing - it takes longer to sign into steam and discord than it does to boot

 

[AusWolf]

Now that IS a long time - but you knew you signed up for that by choosing ram that fast
(Just make sure its actually running at that speed and hasn't reverted back to a safe mode JEDEC on you)

A 15 second or so boot time is nothing - it takes longer to sign into steam and discord than it does to boot

I signed up for it because it's really not a long time for me. I can't even grab a drink before Windows is ready and waiting for me to log in (unless I run which will never happen, unless it's an emergency).

 

[tabascosauz]

I signed up for it because it's really not a long time for me. I can't even grab a drink before Windows is ready and waiting for me to log in (unless I run which will never happen, unless it's an emergency).

Measured quickly with a stopwatch, POST time is about 15 seconds on mine then login screen at about 33 seconds, Windows fast startup disabled. Think my 5700G is a little faster but not by much. Fast startup causes some weirdness with some of my hardware so I don't use it, and without it Ryzen systems have never been particularly fast. I concede that Intel DDR5 platforms seem to boot faster, and that it might matter more to some people I guess.

Some of the legacy 4Gb DDR4 and shitty DDR4 and old AM4 boards are incredibly slow for POST - 4Gb E-die added an easy 5-10 seconds when I was still using it on Matisse and Renoir, but all is forgiven because it's 4Gb E-die. The flaming garbage Hynix mystery meat 3200CL16 LPX I started with would POST only on one stick after upwards of 60 seconds delay, so.........unfortunately, without touching AM5, I already have some idea of what that 30 second POST feels like.