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TOPPING E70/E70 VELVET DACs + L70 Amplifier Desktop Stack

VSG

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TOPPING expands its popular E/L series of DACs and headphone amplifiers! Today we examine the ES9028PRO-based E70 along with the newer AKM AK4499EX-based E70 VELVET DACs, and pair them with the powerful NFCA-based L70 amplifier that makes for a potent stack that aims to do it all!

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I got L30/E30 (both the first version) with one AK4493 (version II has pair) and works well (under Linux). L30 is set to the lowest gain since it has really enough power.
I would buy them again. IMO selection of good headphones is an alchemy while selection of good DAC/HedAmp is easy these days.
 

VSG

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It feels like every other month there is a new topping stack and it's honestly hard to keep track of what each of them does differently...
It's not that bad haha, but I get your point. For now we still see decent product segmentation, I have only reviewed the E/L series though.
 
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Hey VSG, great review as always! Quick question, are you allowed to show the internals - I can see showed some of the layout but just wondering if this is something Toping doesn't want.
Cheers!
 

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Hey VSG, great review as always! Quick question, are you allowed to show the internals - I can see showed some of the layout but just wondering if this is something Toping doesn't want.
Cheers!
If you look at pages 4 and 5 you'll see I went as far as I confidently could. TOPPING has nothing to do with this review, the samples were provided by SHENZHENAUDIO which is a distributor and they don't have any conditions about what I show in the review.
 
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I have only reviewed the E/L series though.
I've always been saying that you're slacking with the backlog. :)

Hey VSG, great review as always! Quick question, are you allowed to show the internals - I can see showed some of the layout but just wondering if this is something Toping doesn't want.
Cheers!
The moment I see him even thinking of some scheming, would be the end of my squirrely friend! :D
 
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If you look at pages 4 and 5 you'll see I went as far as I confidently could. TOPPING has nothing to do with this review, the samples were provided by SHENZHENAUDIO which is a distributor and they don't have any conditions about what I show in the review.
Yeah I read the whole thing, ahh so you have to return them in one piece so they can go to another reviewer. Gottcha!
 
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It feels like every other month there is a new topping stack and it's honestly hard to keep track of what each of them does differently...

Chifi products are vastly more prolific with product releases and range than western or Japanese companies. It's good and bad as they can punch in with unique products in ranges and bad in that it gets cluttered, fast.
 
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Compared to the E/L30 series the headphone amp for instance deals with the volume in a different manner. No channel imbalance. You can also output higher voltage through the DAC.
So there are some differences, more than just higher measured performance increase
 
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VSG

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Yeah I read the whole thing, ahh so you have to return them in one piece so they can go to another reviewer. Gottcha!
No, I don't have to return these. It helps me to have longer term testing and continuous A/B comparisons. But I do have a specific point where I stop disassembly and that's if I feel like I can't take something apart and put it back in working condition. I don't like to create e-waste.
 
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Less audiophool bollocks about sound feeling "sterile and dry", more measurements (SINAD, jitter (for DACs), impulse response (DAC filters), crosstalk, etc), please. I'd like Techpowerup to actually feel like Techpowerup for audio reviews, not like head-fi.
Also, the absence of MQA snakeoil BS "format" is a plus, not a minus.
 
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Less audiophool bollocks about sound feeling "sterile and dry", more measurements (SINAD, jitter (for DACs), impulse response (DAC filters), crosstalk, etc), please. I'd like Techpowerup to actually feel like Techpowerup for audio reviews, not like head-fi.
Also, the absence of MQA snakeoil BS "format" is a plus, not a minus.
Often under similar electrical performance, different products may sound different, and only subjective tests can give us bigger picture. For example, how would anyone know real difference between, say jitter of 1ps or 2ps?

Otherwise, I too would like to see more hardcore charts and graphs, if only to scratch the inner geek in me.
 

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You guys know a standard audio analyzer is like $25k minimum? Easier to talk about what would be good to have vs. what is achievable. There are others who do that so I welcome you to read those reviews too.
 
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You guys know a standard audio analyzer is like $25k minimum? Easier to talk about what would be good to have vs. what is achievable. There are others who do that so I welcome you to read those reviews too.
Hey, hey. No hard feelings. You know we love you, right? :) Sometimes constructive criticism is not too bad, though. Great things are achieved only outside one's comfort (budget) zone.
 
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Often under similar electrical performance, different products may sound different, and only subjective tests can give us bigger picture. For example, how would anyone know real difference between, say jitter of 1ps or 2ps?

Otherwise, I too would like to see more hardcore charts and graphs, if only to scratch the inner geek in me.

There are well-established parameters as to what human ear can hear/detect and what it cannot. Objective measurements simply tell the truth, while audiophile blabber like "wider soundstage", "better micro-detail retrieval", "more open midrange", "analytical sounding" and similar nonsense tell nothing, are most often based on feelings / observations and presumptions, are unprovable by blind tests and objectively give no significant information. Plus there is the thing that everyone hears differently (still within the limits of scientifically established limits of the human hearing) so subjective opinions on the audio quality of a piece of equipment can differ wildly from person to person, while objective measurements are just that - objective measurements.

For example, if I had to select between two DACs, one using a linear phase filter and the other one a minimum phase filter, without the option to change them, both measuring approximately the same but "audiophiles" praising the latter one as having a better "soundstage" and "micro-detail retrieval" and what not, I would simply ignore those opinions and buy the one that uses a linear phase filter, because I objectively know that minimum phase filters cause phase shifts in the audible band, while linear do not and I do not care about "pre-ringing" above 20KHz, as that is inaudible. Which brings me to one thing I was unable to find in this review - information about digital filters. But I assume that as with most Topping DACs with a remote, one can simply select the filter they want from a selection of all the available ones for the specific DAC chip, right?

Excuse my slightly ranty tone, it's just that as someone who considers themselves an "objectivist audiophile", I wish there was more objective technical information about audio equipment in all the reviews online, instead of opinion-based subjective observations...
 
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There are well-established parameters as to what human ear can hear/detect and what it cannot. Objective measurements simply tell the truth, while audiophile blabber like "wider soundstage", "better micro-detail retrieval", "more open midrange", "analytical sounding" and similar nonsense tell nothing, are most often based on feelings / observations and presumptions, are unprovable by blind tests and objectively give no significant information. Plus there is the thing that everyone hears differently (still within the limits of scientifically established limits of the human hearing) so subjective opinions on the audio quality of a piece of equipment can differ wildly from person to person, while objective measurements are just that - objective measurements.

For example, if I had to select between two DACs, one using a linear phase filter and the other one a minimum phase filter, without the option to change them, both measuring approximately the same but "audiophiles" praising the latter one as having a better "soundstage" and "micro-detail retrieval" and what not, I would simply ignore those opinions and buy the one that uses a linear phase filter, because I objectively know that minimum phase filters cause phase shifts in the audible band, while linear do not and I do not care about "pre-ringing" above 20KHz, as that is inaudible. Which brings me to one thing I was unable to find in this review - information about digital filters. But I assume that as with most Topping DACs with a remote, one can simply select the filter they want from a selection of all the available ones for the specific DAC chip, right?

Excuse my slightly ranty tone, it's just that as someone who considers themselves an "objectivist audiophile", I wish there was more objective technical information about audio equipment in all the reviews online, instead of opinion-based subjective observations...
While I agree with you a 100% (no sarcasm), I must also agree with @VSG here. If the above is what you seek, then you should probably not find it here. Not anytime soon anyway.
And trust me, apart from being a huge hobby of mine and also one of my majors, and apart from hurting me deeply that I don't see proper scientific reviews here, I must admit it's a good starting point for many people. Also, I take certain enjoyment from reding such reviews with my Sunday coffee. And that comes from a guy with gear that most people can't afford in several consequtive lifetimes.
 
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While I agree with you a 100% (no sarcasm), I must also agree with @VSG here. If the above is what you seek, then you should probably not find it here. Not anytime soon anyway.
And trust me, apart from being a huge hobby of mine and also one of my majors, and apart from hurting me deeply that I don't see proper scientific reviews here, I must admit it's a good starting point for many people. Also, I take certain enjoyment from reding such reviews with my Sunday coffee. And that comes from a guy with gear that most people can't afford in several consequtive lifetimes.

It's just that there's this contrast between almost all of the other kinds of reviews on Techpowerup having tons of measurements and graphs and data while audio equipment reviews have just one FR graph and that's it. I of course appreciate all the work that went into the writing of the review and all of the aspects of the devices that were written about in detail. I just wish I did not have to wait for a review on audiosciencereview or archimago's blog to see the THD and noise values of these Toppings.
Here's hoping that one day VSG will be able to get an audio analyzer and we'll have the pleasure of seeing some nice graphs and hard data in addition to VSG's eloquent and detailed verbal review!
 
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It's just that there's this contrast between almost all of the other kinds of reviews on Techpowerup having tons of measurements and graphs and data while audio equipment reviews have just one FR graph and that's it. I of course appreciate all the work that went into the writing of the review and all of the aspects of the devices that were written about in detail. I just wish I did not have to wait for a review on audiosciencereview or archimago's blog to see the THD and noise values of these Toppings.
Here's hoping that one day VSG will be able to get an audio analyzer and we'll have the pleasure of seeing some nice graphs and hard data in addition to VSG's eloquent and detailed verbal review!

I hope he gets one as well but high end audio gear and audio stuff in general is in a different class of price than what it takes to review computer stuff.

There are well-established parameters as to what human ear can hear/detect and what it cannot. Objective measurements simply tell the truth, while audiophile blabber like "wider soundstage", "better micro-detail retrieval", "more open midrange", "analytical sounding" and similar nonsense tell nothing, are most often based on feelings / observations and presumptions, are unprovable by blind tests and objectively give no significant information. Plus there is the thing that everyone hears differently (still within the limits of scientifically established limits of the human hearing) so subjective opinions on the audio quality of a piece of equipment can differ wildly from person to person, while objective measurements are just that - objective measurements.

For example, if I had to select between two DACs, one using a linear phase filter and the other one a minimum phase filter, without the option to change them, both measuring approximately the same but "audiophiles" praising the latter one as having a better "soundstage" and "micro-detail retrieval" and what not, I would simply ignore those opinions and buy the one that uses a linear phase filter, because I objectively know that minimum phase filters cause phase shifts in the audible band, while linear do not and I do not care about "pre-ringing" above 20KHz, as that is inaudible. Which brings me to one thing I was unable to find in this review - information about digital filters. But I assume that as with most Topping DACs with a remote, one can simply select the filter they want from a selection of all the available ones for the specific DAC chip, right?

Excuse my slightly ranty tone, it's just that as someone who considers themselves an "objectivist audiophile", I wish there was more objective technical information about audio equipment in all the reviews online, instead of opinion-based subjective observations...

Those "blabber" terms do translate to something. I'm going to use headphones and IEMs as they are the easiest way to talk about these terms.

Soundstage is the easiest if you have used open backed vs closed backed headphones you know this one instantly. It's how far out the sound can seem to come from. It's the basic of if you were sitting in a concert hall how cramped does it feel. For gaming I'd say this is the most important thing as hearing how far some is from you vs just their direction is sort of crazy. Micro-detail is the hidden parts of the track or whatever it is you are listening too and while I agree this is often picking nits, if you're in this hobby we've all used a system and heard parts of a song on another system or with new gear that changes the experience. For analytical this is an easy one and it's why Etymotic has two types of their 4 series IEMs. One is straight reference sound and PITA to drive and the other is easy to drive but has a bass boost. Analytical is simple translating to "as flat as possible" and a lot of people don't like this and use the even more mundane term "harsh" for it. Items that are tweaked or tuned for a certain sound style or curve are not analytical. I could go on and on with these terms.

I chose the headphone game for this because it's the most noticable area where nobody can argue that open backed and closed back phones are the same or remotely close. It's also the most obvious to even neophytes. But the same stuff does exist at the DAC and AMP level even if it's vastly more subttle and not nearly as important in most cases.

The catch is at the end of the day everything is going to be more subjective than objective. The end point in this entire audio chain is you! Your ears! That's why I always go with try before you buy and most reputable dealers do have a return policy.

FWIW complaining about VSG on audio is sort of like complaining about monitor reviews here. I haven't seen anyone here with a reference monitor (which also cost 20k+) and proper calibration tools so any review here is going to be subjective. The objective gear is in the "sell your first child" range for all of this stuff even proper power draw measurements of stuff.
 
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I hope he gets one as well but high end audio gear and audio stuff in general is in a different class of price than what it takes to review computer stuff.



Those "blabber" terms do translate to something. I'm going to use headphones and IEMs as they are the easiest way to talk about these terms.

Soundstage is the easiest if you have used open backed vs closed backed headphones you know this one instantly. It's how far out the sound can seem to come from. It's the basic of if you were sitting in a concert hall how cramped does it feel. For gaming I'd say this is the most important thing as hearing how far some is from you vs just their direction is sort of crazy. Micro-detail is the hidden parts of the track or whatever it is you are listening too and while I agree this is often picking nits, if you're in this hobby we've all used a system and heard parts of a song on another system or with new gear that changes the experience. For analytical this is an easy one and it's why Etymotic has two types of their 4 series IEMs. One is straight reference sound and PITA to drive and the other is easy to drive but has a bass boost. Analytical is simple translating to "as flat as possible" and a lot of people don't like this and use the even more mundane term "harsh" for it. Items that are tweaked or tuned for a certain sound style or curve are not analytical. I could go on and on with these terms.

I chose the headphone game for this because it's the most noticable area where nobody can argue that open backed and closed back phones are the same or remotely close. It's also the most obvious to even neophytes. But the same stuff does exist at the DAC and AMP level even if it's vastly more subttle and not nearly as important in most cases.

The catch is at the end of the day everything is going to be more subjective than objective. The end point in this entire audio chain is you! Your ears! That's why I always go with try before you buy and most reputable dealers do have a return policy.

FWIW complaining about VSG on audio is sort of like complaining about monitor reviews here. I haven't seen anyone here with a reference monitor (which also cost 20k+) and proper calibration tools so any review here is going to be subjective. The objective gear is in the "sell your first child" range for all of this stuff even proper power draw measurements of stuff.

I understand the need for audiophool blabber with headphones to a certain degree, as the interaction between a headphone and a human ear is very complex and difficult to measure, different measurement fixtures will produce different results, even moving the same headphone that's being measured on a fixture just a few millimeters can significantly change the measured frequency response, especially in upper treble regions. Therefore, if someone needs to know how a headphone sounds and they cannot try the headphone themselves, a combination of well-made measurements and a verbal review by someone with good ears and experience with audio is needed.

But DACs and amps are a different thing - they simply either convert a digital signal to analog or amplify an analog signal. Those devices only serve to feed a speaker or a headphone with a signal, the signal ideally being as close to the recorded signalas possible. Two DACs that measure close to each other enough (in terms of SINAD, FR, channel crosstalk) and use similar digital filters, cannot be different in terms of soundstage, (micro/macro) dynamics/detail, "analyticality" of the sound etc. If the reviewer compares two such DACs and mentions one of them having better details or a warmer sound, for example, it is most likely because they are imagining things based on what they know about the product (example: DAC A is made by comany X so it should sound better than DAC B made by company Y) or they have not properly matched the volume between the two DACs (ideally using a level meter or a similar precise method). You would be surprised how much of a difference increasing the volume by just 1 dB does to perceived "dynamics, clarity, details" etc, instead of being heard as a difference in volume, which is the only thing it really is.

In conclusion, human hearing is a very subjective thing, closely connected to our thoughts and emotions, and it is very easy to fool our brain into thinking we hear things that are not really there. I do not care how much experience someone has or if they have "golden ears". Hard data and measurements will always be more precise and valuable than anyone's subjective listening impressions. Take for example bluetooth audio and LDAC vs SBC. People will keep claiming how great LDAC sounds and how bad SBC is, while in reality, they are very likely listening to LDAC at 330 Kbps, which is measured to be worse than SBC (most headphones support SBC's High Quality profile with which the noise/distortion is below human audibility threshold). (sources 1 2 3)

This is not meant to be directed against VSG, their review of the Topping DACs/amps or anyone in particular, just my general opinion on audio equipment reviews
 
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I understand the need for audiophool blabber with headphones to a certain degree, as the interaction between a headphone and a human ear is very complex and difficult to measure, different measurement fixtures will produce different results, even moving the same headphone that's being measured on a fixture just a few millimeters can significantly change the measured frequency response, especially in upper treble regions. Therefore, if someone needs to know how a headphone sounds and they cannot try the headphone themselves, a combination of well-made measurements and a verbal review by someone with good ears and experience with audio is needed.

But DACs and amps are a different thing - they simply either convert a digital signal to analog or amplify an analog signal. Those devices only serve to feed a speaker or a headphone with a signal, the signal ideally being as close to the recorded signalas possible. Two DACs that measure close to each other enough (in terms of SINAD, FR, channel crosstalk) and use similar digital filters, cannot be different in terms of soundstage, (micro/macro) dynamics/detail, "analyticality" of the sound etc. If the reviewer compares two such DACs and mentions one of them having better details or a warmer sound, for example, it is most likely because they are imagining things based on what they know about the product (example: DAC A is made by comany X so it should sound better than DAC B made by company Y) or they have not properly matched the volume between the two DACs (ideally using a level meter or a similar precise method). You would be surprised how much of a difference increasing the volume by just 1 dB does to perceived "dynamics, clarity, details" etc, instead of being heard as a difference in volume, which is the only thing it really is.

In conclusion, human hearing is a very subjective thing, closely connected to our thoughts and emotions, and it is very easy to fool our brain into thinking we hear things that are not really there. I do not care how much experience someone has or if they have "golden ears". Hard data and measurements will always be more precise and valuable than anyone's subjective listening impressions. Take for example bluetooth audio and LDAC vs SBC. People will keep claiming how great LDAC sounds and how bad SBC is, while in reality, they are very likely listening to LDAC at 330 Kbps, which is measured to be worse than SBC (most headphones support SBC's High Quality profile with which the noise/distortion is below human audibility threshold). (sources 1 2 3)

This is not meant to be directed against VSG, their review of the Topping DACs/amps or anyone in particular, just my general opinion on audio equipment reviews

I agree with all this to a point but there are still differences. One of the issues I have with DAC and AMP reviews is this leaves out the power quality and they all perform different with different headphones and end points. Most of the objective measurements get so stupidly small that there is no way in hell most people are going to notice them. It's not snake oil. It's just overly built stuff because "fuck you! it's awesome! and we could! so we did!" that's really common in this hobby and I find it sort of fun. Do you need to hit an ant farm with a 2000 lb bomb? No. But it's awesome!

There's not a good way to do all this which is why people argue about it all the time. At the end of the day most people end up with multiple DACs and AMPs on the headphone/iem side of things because they all play different with different stuff. It's also why you get stuff that's tweaked for specific headphones. That makes it an easy recommend. Even if you have direct objective measurements on something it's always going to boil down to the subjective "what headphones do you have, what do you listen to, how is your hearing" level.

Plus at the end of the day most of us are reading all this for fun and enjoyment. There are items that will fall into impulse buy for people, and there are people looking to jump in and hear "it's good, this is a good value" from someone they trust rather than going off Amazon reviews. Then there are the halo items which are just fun to drool at but way out of most peoples range and those who have the cash and could buy it while knowing enough about the hobby to want to spend the cash already have what they want.
 
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