Next-gen AM5 Motherboard Platforms Could Support USB4

[Wirko]

We don't know how much space is left on 1718 pins to add more x4 PCIe PHY.

What's your opinion, it the pin chart at Wikichip based on reliable sources? It doesn't show any pins for PCIe left, the socket is basically fully utilised.

I believe the next generation of chipsets will have a Gen5 x4 link, not Gen4 x8. On the short path to CPU from chipset, there will be no need for redrivers or retimers. x8 would be a waste of lanes.

Now why haven't they already done that in the X670? Just speculating here as I can't find any info: they're made on 12 nm process and would be extremely hot in operation. I'm taking the Phison E26 SSD controller as a reference here, maybe not the best reference but it's the only piece of consumer tech (apart from CPUs themselves) that runs a Gen5 x4 link. It's made on 12nm process and it's known to be *very* hot and power hungry.

 

[Tek-Check]

What's your opinion, it the pin chart at Wikichip based on reliable sources? It doesn't show any pins for PCIe left, the socket is basically fully utilised.

I believe the next generation of chipsets will have a Gen5 x4 link, not Gen4 x8. On the short path to CPU from chipset, there will be no need for redrivers or retimers. x8 would be a waste of lanes.

Now why haven't they already done that in the X670? Just speculating here as I can't find any info: they're made on 12 nm process and would be extremely hot in operation. I'm taking the Phison E26 SSD controller as a reference here, maybe not the best reference but it's the only piece of consumer tech (apart from CPUs themselves) that runs a Gen5 x4 link. It's made on 12nm process and it's known to be *very* hot and power hungry.

It's strange to me that the first iteration of 1718 socket already has all pins busy. Where is the space for improvement with Zen5, and maybe Zen6? Can they re-map some pins with new Zen5 architrecture or utilize some ground pins? How flexible this is? I have little knowlegde about repurposing pins. There must be a way, no?

Next gen chipset link will only have x4 Gen5 speed when AsMedia redevelops Promo21 chipset and upgrades it to x4 Gen5. This may take more than one year form now, as it needs to be tested and certified by USB-IF. The issue with this is that there are still four physical PCIe lanes of traffic, no matter which generation of PCIe data run through it. Intel has eight lanes on DMI and it's more flexible for upgrades. AMD needs to upgrade the chipset link on desktop to x8 lanes. They have this already on TR system.

If NVMe SSD is a primary drive with OS, then data run through it at all times and this generates heat. On the chipset link side, the lanes are not utilised fully at all times, depending on which peripherals are engaged in traffic, so there is relatively less heat in this area.

 

[AnotherReader]

It's strange to me that the first iteration of 1718 socket already has all pins busy. Where is the space for improvement with Zen5, and maybe Zen6? Can they re-map some pins with new Zen5 architrecture or utilize some ground pins? How flexible this is? I have little knowlegde about repurposing pins. There must be a way, no?

Next gen chipset link will only have x4 Gen5 speed when AsMedia redevelops Promo21 chipset and upgrades it to x4 Gen5. This may take more than one year form now, as it needs to be tested and certified by USB-IF. The issue with this is that there are still four physical PCIe lanes of traffic, no matter which generation of PCIe data run through it. Intel has eight lanes on DMI and it's more flexible for upgrades. AMD needs to upgrade the chipset link on desktop to x8 lanes. They have this already on TR system.

If NVMe SSD is a primary drive with OS, then data run through it at all times and this generates heat. On the chipset link side, the lanes are not utilised fully at all times, depending on which peripherals are engaged in traffic, so there is relatively less heat in this area.

Four lanes of PCIe5 is plenty for a desktop chipset. The number of downstream lanes from the chipset can be up to 16 PCIe 3.0 or 8 PCIe 4 before running into bandwidth contention under 100% utilization (a rather artificial scenario). In actual practice, the number of downstream lanes could be increased substantially.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

This may take more than one year form now, as it needs to be tested and certified by USB-IF.

Um, a connection between a south bridge and a north bridge is effectively internal. Why in this part require a certificate from USB-IF?

 

[trsttte]

@8:12 Wendel tested this board with Registered ECC, and it works for the X670 Steel Legend. A little later in the video Wendel confirms that Registered ECC also works with the X670 Taichi @11:00

You're confusing things, AM5 supports Unbuffered/Unregistered (same thing) ECC which is NOT the same as registered ECC. It basically has the same ECC support AM4 already had - variable depending on motherboard implementation - but now with DDR5. Registered DIMMs are a different ball game and are basically never supported on desktop platforms because there's really not that much need for it, they're designed for systems with MUCH higher ammounts of ram which only happens on server grade hardware.

Either way, cool to see some boards validated early-ish on, though not unexpected, I believe Asrock is usually very good about ECC support

 

[Tek-Check]

Um, a connection between a south bridge and a north bridge is effectively internal. Why in this part require a certificate from USB-IF?

It does not need one, you are right. A page or two ago another member mentioned intergrating USB4 in future chipset. This solution would need certification process to meet minimal requirements.

Four lanes of PCIe5 is plenty for a desktop chipset. The number of downstream lanes from the chipset can be up to 16 PCIe 3.0 or 8 PCIe 4 before running into bandwidth contention under 100% utilization (a rather artificial scenario). In actual practice, the number of downstream lanes could be increased substantially.

Right. Do you have any diagram or spec of the chipset link on AM5?

 

[ADB1979]

You can find ECC UDIMM on NewEgg.

So I see. They list a total of 4 options, whereas I found 35 options under the "Server DDR5" section, so yes, whilst they may exist, they are far from the norm, unlike earlier DDR versions., but as you say, veering off topic.

You're confusing things, AM5 supports Unbuffered/Unregistered (same thing) ECC which is NOT the same as registered ECC. It basically has the same ECC support AM4 already had - variable depending on motherboard implementation - but now with DDR5. Registered DIMMs are a different ball game and are basically never supported on desktop platforms because there's really not that much need for it, they're designed for systems with MUCH higher ammounts of ram which only happens on server grade hardware.

Either way, cool to see some boards validated early-ish on, though not unexpected, I believe Asrock is usually very good about ECC support

Well that sucks Donkey balls considering that "un"registered DDR5 16G DIMM's cost as much as 32G Registered DIMM's (according to NewEgg), which suddenly makes the cost of an EPYC/TR platform look look a whole lot more reasonable compared to AM5, "if" ECC RAM is a requirement.

Does this board with two PCIe switches meet your requirements?
View attachment 306093

TBH, I do not like the layout on the basis of using a graphics card that realistic uses 3-slots, so in the above layout you lose an x16 slot and an x8 slot.

I have thought for sometime that the best option would be a total overhaul the ATX standard, just effecting the motherboard layout and case standards, leaving everything else as is. A large part of today's problems come from the GPU cooler often being larger than the CPU cooler, and being badly positioned from the perspective of cooling. I have some plans, and even tried to (repeatedly) contact GamersNexus when they announced they were looking for plans as they were working with a case manufacturer for a new product. I never heard back.!!!

I might want to see if a patent is a real-world option before I discuss anything here, no offence. If someone is reading this from a company that makes cases, or sells cases made by an OEM, feel free to contact me.

 

[Wirko]

It's strange to me that the first iteration of 1718 socket already has all pins busy. Where is the space for improvement with Zen5, and maybe Zen6?

Yes, it is strange. When I first saw the huge increase in pins in both AM5 and Intel's LGA1700, I thought they made space for a third memory channel, to feed a powerful IGP. As it turns out, it's mostly for power pins. Zen 5 and Zen 6 cores will be pushed to their limits just like Zen 4, and there may be more cores, which all means that peak currents can only go up (even if average consumption doesn't). That's why we see power delivery strengthened so much.

Can they re-map some pins with new Zen5 architrecture or utilize some ground pins? How flexible this is? I have little knowlegde about repurposing pins. There must be a way, no?

High speed signals have a specific arrangement of pins, with many ground pins (or Vdd supply pins) which separate lanes. A 4-lane PCIe requires 16 signal pins plus twice as many ground pins around them - that's a lot! The only other pins with the same or similar arrangement are DP and USB-C. So I'd say repurposing is out of question in this case.

Um, a connection between a south bridge and a north bridge is effectively internal. Why in this part require a certificate from USB-IF?

The same chips also carry USB interfaces. New chip, new USB certification.

 

[Tek-Check]

TBH, I do not like the layout on the basis of using a graphics card that realistic uses 3-slots, so in the above layout you lose an x16 slot and an x8 slot.

It was just an example of possible layout. The layout can easily change and you can have primary GPU slot in the third position and the other two above it. For one or two slots a short raiser cable can be used too, need there be. It's a space trade-off on semi-HEDT system.
In terms of PCIe connectivity, that's about the best you could squeeze out from X670E platform; quite decent actually.

I never heard back.!!!

They are busy, of course. Keep trying and don't give up. I went for 15 interviews before I got my job...

 

[trsttte]

Well that sucks Donkey balls considering that "un"registered DDR5 16G DIMM's cost as much as 32G Registered DIMM's (according to NewEgg), which suddenly makes the cost of an EPYC/TR platform look look a whole lot more reasonable compared to AM5, "if" ECC RAM is a requirement.

Ram pricing can be very wonky early on and there isn't that much regular unregistered ECC out there as, funny enough, there's less support and demand for it than registered ECC.

Try to check the online store of a memory manufacturer like Crucial, for reference, they're about the same price on the Crucial online store for the same capacity, rank, speed and latency (and yes, they're slow AF but that's ecc modules for you, you're not buying them for the speed - when DDR5 is more mature there will be faster ECC modules but that's not today)

Micron 16GB DDR5-4800 RDIMM 1Rx8 CL40 | MTC10F1084S1RC48BR | Crucial.com

Buy Micron 16GB DDR5-4800 RDIMM 1Rx8 CL40 MTC10F1084S1RC48BR. FREE US Delivery, guaranteed 100% compatibility when ordering using our online tools.

www.crucial.com

Micron 16GB DDR5-4800 ECC UDIMM 1Rx8 CL40 | MTC10C1084S1EC48BR | Crucial.com

Buy Micron 16GB DDR5-4800 ECC UDIMM 1Rx8 CL40 MTC10C1084S1EC48BR. FREE US Delivery, guaranteed 100% compatibility when ordering using our online tools.

www.crucial.com

 

[A Computer Guy]

Well that sucks Donkey balls considering that "un"registered DDR5 16G DIMM's cost as much as 32G Registered DIMM's (according to NewEgg), which suddenly makes the cost of an EPYC/TR platform look look a whole lot more reasonable compared to AM5, "if" ECC RAM is a requirement.

For comparison you can get last gen ECC DDR4-3200 UDIMM 64GB (32GB per module) for about $150 to $200 depending on when it's on sale on newegg.

 

[ADB1979]

They are busy, of course. Keep trying and don't give up. I went for 15 interviews before I got my job...

This was more than a year ago, it's not going to happen.! Sadly.

Ram pricing can be very wonky early on and there isn't that much regular unregistered ECC out there as, funny enough, there's less support and demand for it than registered ECC.

Try to check the online store of a memory manufacturer like Crucial, for reference, they're about the same price on the Crucial online store for the same capacity, rank, speed and latency (and yes, they're slow AF but that's ecc modules for you, you're not buying them for the speed - when DDR5 is more mature there will be faster ECC modules but that's not today)

Thanks, this is far more reasonable, I am still surprised that the desktop/laptop Ryzen CPU's cant use Registered RAM, seems like such a small but important oversight, especially as AMD have intel on the cliff edge and Intel non-server platforms do not support ECC at all.!

For comparison you can get last gen ECC DDR4-3200 UDIMM 64GB (32GB per module) for about $150 to $200 depending on when it's on sale on newegg.

Thanks.

It was just an example of possible layout. The layout can easily change and you can have primary GPU slot in the third position and the other two above it. For one or two slots a short raiser cable can be used too, need there be. It's a space trade-off on semi-HEDT system.
In terms of PCIe connectivity, that's about the best you could squeeze out from X670E platform; quite decent actually.

Yes, the great thing about slots on motherboards is that you can put them almost anywhere you want, but of course there are caveats and drawbacks to certain locations, there are many options and posibilities, certainly enough to fulfil all of the needs of anyone to be able to max-out what is possible on the AM5 platform.

 

[Wirko]

Thanks, this is far more reasonable, I am still surprised that the desktop/laptop Ryzen CPU's cant use Registered RAM, seems like such a small but important oversight, especially as AMD have intel on the cliff edge and Intel non-server platforms do not support ECC at all.!

Hm, is there ANY platform in existence, be it server or WS or consumer, that can take either registered or non-registered memory?

 

[unwind-protect]

Hm, is there ANY platform in existence, be it server or WS or consumer, that can take either registered or non-registered memory?

Up to DD4 you could use unbuffered memory in most registered platforms (up to a smaller number of DIMMs). That trick is no longer possible with DDR5.

 

[trsttte]

Thanks, this is far more reasonable, I am still surprised that the desktop/laptop Ryzen CPU's cant use Registered RAM, seems like such a small but important oversight, especially as AMD have intel on the cliff edge and Intel non-server platforms do not support ECC at all.!

Registered memory only really matter for servers, the dimms have an extra microcontroller doing error correction shifting the load from the CPU to the actual DIMM. It's not like it woulnd't be nice in the desktop, but when you're running 2 or 4 dimms and at most 128gb of memory it doesn't matter. It was never supported in desktop/laptops and there's no reason to expect it to suddenly start being supported.

Intel has ECC on workstation platforms, now including the regular core series processors if you spring the extra money for a W680 motherboard (which is absurd since the memory controller is in the cpu but that's segmentation for you :facepalm

Hm, is there ANY platform in existence, be it server or WS or consumer, that can take either registered or non-registered memory?

Yes, threadripper pro does and I believe saphire rapids does to, certainly not at the same time of course but they're compatible with both

 

[ADB1979]

Registered memory only really matter for servers, the dimms have an extra microcontroller doing error correction shifting the load from the CPU to the actual DIMM. It's not like it woulnd't be nice in the desktop, but when you're running 2 or 4 dimms and at most 128gb of memory it doesn't matter. It was never supported in desktop/laptops and there's no reason to expect it to suddenly start being supported.

Intel has ECC on workstation platforms, now including the regular core series processors if you spring the extra money for a W680 motherboard (which is absurd since the memory controller is in the cpu but that's segmentation for you :facepalm



Yes, threadripper pro does and I believe saphire rapids does to, certainly not at the same time of course but they're compatible with both

I haven't checked, but either TR gen 1 does not, or my TR gen 1 motherboard does not (I bought it second hand, and looked at upgrading the RAM to ECC, but it only takes ECC Unregistered, which for DDR4 is very poor value, especially compared to Registered DDR4. I don't "need" it, but I want it. Also, the used market for "server" DDR4 is (a) almost all Registered, and (b) is often very slow, and (c) if it comes from a manufacturer like Dell, HP, or IBM might not be standard, and as such might simply not work.! Therefore I was looking at new 3200 DDR Unregistered RAM, and it's pricey (FYI, 3200 is cheaper than 2933, and barely any more than anything slower). I ultimately never bought any because I do not "need" it, and the price put me off.

 

[trsttte]

I haven't checked, but either TR gen 1 does not, or my TR gen 1 motherboard does not (I bought it second hand, and looked at upgrading the RAM to ECC, but it only takes ECC Unregistered, which for DDR4 is very poor value, especially compared to Registered DDR4. I don't "need" it, but I want it. Also, the used market for "server" DDR4 is (a) almost all Registered, and (b) is often very slow, and (c) if it comes from a manufacturer like Dell, HP, or IBM might not be standard, and as such might simply not work.! Therefore I was looking at new 3200 DDR Unregistered RAM, and it's pricey (FYI, 3200 is cheaper than 2933, and barely any more than anything slower). I ultimately never bought any because I do not "need" it, and the price put me off.

Threadripper is different than threadripper pro, not to mention the bs amd pulled with tr40 and strx40. There's less demand for unregistered ecc because fewer platforms use it - most desktops run non ecc and servers go with registered or lrdimms. The used marked being filled with registered dimms from big server oems just illustrates this point.

 

[ADB1979]

Threadripper is different than threadripper pro, not to mention the bs amd pulled with tr40 and strx40. There's less demand for unregistered ecc because fewer platforms use it - most desktops run non ecc and servers go with registered or lrdimms. The used marked being filled with registered dimms from big server oems just illustrates this point.

Really off topic, so my last post on this here. I see that the DIMM's I looked at previously for my TR system are priced sensibly (for ECC RAM, surprised that is is a little cheaper than Registered, probably for the reasons noted above) and I just bought a pair, yes just 2, I really dont need the bandwidth, at least for now... I can get more as it is Crucial so easy to find. £42.99 per 16G 3200 ECC non-registered DIMM.

This discussion has led me to a positive upgrade, and not just for this system, but for then next one in line that will get its (two 16G DIMM's).

Crucial part number MTA9ASF2G72AZ-3G2R

 

[trsttte]

Really off topic, so my last post on this here. I see that the DIMM's I looked at previously for my TR system are priced sensibly (for ECC RAM, surprised that is is a little cheaper than Registered, probably for the reasons noted above) and I just bought a pair, yes just 2, I really dont need the bandwidth, at least for now... I can get more as it is Crucial so easy to find. £42.99 per 16G 3200 ECC non-registered DIMM.

This discussion has led me to a positive upgrade, and not just for this system, but for then next one in line that will get its (two 16G DIMM's).

Crucial part number MTA9ASF2G72AZ-3G2R

I bought a similar model not long ago from them. If you want an even sweeter deal register for the newsletter (on a disposable email or whatever) to get a 10% discount code, the discount might not work on checkout because ecc memory is categorized as server memory but you can contact support and ask for the discount anyway and they'll refund you the difference

 

[A Computer Guy]

Really off topic, so my last post on this here. I see that the DIMM's I looked at previously for my TR system are priced sensibly (for ECC RAM, surprised that is is a little cheaper than Registered, probably for the reasons noted above) and I just bought a pair, yes just 2, I really dont need the bandwidth, at least for now... I can get more as it is Crucial so easy to find. £42.99 per 16G 3200 ECC non-registered DIMM.

This discussion has led me to a positive upgrade, and not just for this system, but for then next one in line that will get its (two 16G DIMM's).

Crucial part number MTA9ASF2G72AZ-3G2R

Also Micron 18ASF2G72AZ-2G6B1 or Micron 18ASF2G72AZ-2G6D1 should also work although these are DDR4-2666 modules they may run at DDR4-3200 with a simple bump in DRAM voltage to 1.35v and possibly a bump in SOC voltage to 1.1v depending on your board and chip. So far 3 kits (2 sticks) I have used of this model will do that even when combined to 64GB (4 dimms).

 

[ADB1979]

Also Micron 18ASF2G72AZ-2G6B1 or Micron 18ASF2G72AZ-2G6D1 should also work although these are DDR4-2666 modules they may run at DDR4-3200 with a simple bump in DRAM voltage to 1.35v and possibly a bump in SOC voltage to 1.1v depending on your board and chip.

Thanks for the info, but as I have already ordered the RAM, and it should turn up tomorrow, I wont be buying these. Also, I would never choose to overclock ECC RAM on the principle that is has been bought for stability.! Also the price difference for 2666 is $40 vs 3200 for £42, so it's not even worth bothering about. Still, it is good to know that you can actually overclock ECC RAM on some motherboards.

 

[Tek-Check]

The support is there because now, as you can see from the mobile implementation, it just doesn't have the desktop hardware installed on the board. Given the wishful tone of the news, it shouldn't be. The presence of USB4 is mandatory. I wouldn't buy an AM5 platform while it continues to be cut. A 10Gb/s internet controller, standard on all motherboards except those with the lowest budget class A720 "chipset", is also mandatory. We are not in the stone age, riding it with slow retro links.

I agree about USB4. AsMedia did not have the controller ready for AM5 launch.
Now, it is ready for prime time and it will feature in many X770 and some B750 boards.

As ragards to 10 GbE, this is not going to happen any time soon on a larger scale. Forget about it. Not needed for most users.
External WAN ports on routers bring mostly up to 1 Gbps, as hardly any internet provider offers anything above that.
Internally, on home devices, this depends on needs. Most 4K TVs and AVRs still have 100 Mbps LAN port, so there is that.
2.5 Gbps ports has become a standard on all B650 and X670 boards, to connect to NAS, switches, etc.
In next 5 years, those ports will move to 5 Gbps, and more higher end boards will have 10 Gbps, not just halo models.
Arrow Lake motherboards and other devices with Thunderbolt 5 ports will support 20 Gbps network traffic.

Despite pretty widespread adoption of USB-C by peripherals, it's just amazing to me how glacially slow the uptake USB-C (USB4 and Thunderbolt) has been in the PC desktop world. I've got all of these lanes dedicated to PCIe 1x slots that I'm never going to use, yet only a single USB-C 3.1 port (itself using shared bandwidth via the chipset)? There's a whole world of fast external storage (SSDs, memory cards, RAID) that most desktop users have to jump through hoops to connect. Even Thunderbolt displays -- not that there are many -- offer some nice conveniences (especially if your machine is under a desk and not accessible.) Intel definitely has some blame here, but AMD and their weird chipset design decisions continue to baffle.

You need to know which board to buy. I have Asus ProArt B550 with two Thunderbolt 4 ports, both 40 Gbps, exactly for fast SSDs. Several AM5 boards from Asrock and Asus also have TB4/USB4 ports.

i assume this is utilizing controller into the cpu pcie4x4 lanes.
those graphics are very old, mid 2022

AMS4242 host controller was not ready for AM5 release. It is ready now and it will come with next chipset.