Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[Shrek]

I know for a fact that H2 is a better idea than battery-swap.

Then we don't need to discuss further.

 

[lemonadesoda]

A ship is sinking because of inbuilt battery packs. https://www.dw.com/en/burning-ship-off-dutch-coast-has-more-e-cars-than-thought/a-66375203

Make them modular. Don't care about swapping for long trips, but shipping independently of the car, and in workshop, if batteries need changing, easy to do. As battery technology improves, ability to swap out for higher density and extended range.

The problem is that we are not yet at a point where industry would agree on a standardised modular format because the battery technology is changing so rapidly, and certain manufacturers have their IP in their designs that helps differentiate themselves, incl. need for high amperage in sports models etc.

EU or other regulator/standard authority needs to step in and force a standard, even if that standard changes every couple of years like USB or wifi. Even allow exceptions, but like CAFE rules, create a standard for 85% of cars.

Maybe not today - but they need to start the process - so that it can be implemented in 5-6 years time.

 

[dragontamer5788]

A ship is sinking because of inbuilt battery packs. https://www.dw.com/en/burning-ship-off-dutch-coast-has-more-e-cars-than-thought/a-66375203

Make them modular. Don't care about swapping for long trips, but shipping independently of the car, and in workshop, if batteries need changing, easy to do. As battery technology improves, ability to swap out for higher density and extended range.

The problem is that we are not yet at a point where industry would agree on a standardised modular format because the battery technology is changing so rapidly, and certain manufacturers have their IP in their designs that helps differentiate themselves, incl. need for high amperage in sports models etc.

EU or other regulator/standard authority needs to step in and force a standard, even if that standard changes every couple of years like USB or wifi. Even allow exceptions, but like CAFE rules, create a standard for 85% of cars.

Maybe not today - but they need to start the process - so that it can be implemented in 5-6 years time.

In practice, these 500kg (Tesla) to 800kg (F150) to 1280kg (Hummer EV) are wielded onto the car, because what the hell else can hold that much weight when traveling at 100km/hr or 60mph while braking, turning, etc. etc. ?

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but ugggh. I don't want to think about what kind of connectors could safely hold that kind of weight in car-crash scenarios (ex: 30+ Gs of force). Its not an easy problem, that's for sure. (Plus balance issues, suspension, etc. etc. Lots of issues to think about, I don't envy those guys...)

----------

Transporting the Li-ion separately and assembling inside of the country is probably the best way. Wielders aren't that expensive, in the great scheme of things. A li-ion ship could still catch on fire of course, but presumably better precautions could be taken somehow if its a dedicated vessel. (Much like how oil tankers and their crashes remain an issue, but by centralizing the oil onto dedicated-oil tankers, there's more attention given to the problem and hopefully fewer errors).

 

[tabascosauz]

The standardized battery would be smaller, maybe 100kg; larger vehicles would have more slots than smaller vehicles. For around town use one could leave some slots empty to save weight.

Pickups could have space in the bed for times when extreem range was desired; but normally left empty.

People with access to home electricity would use that most of the time.

A ship is sinking because of inbuilt battery packs. https://www.dw.com/en/burning-ship-off-dutch-coast-has-more-e-cars-than-thought/a-66375203

Make them modular. Don't care about swapping for long trips, but shipping independently of the car, and in workshop, if batteries need changing, easy to do. As battery technology improves, ability to swap out for higher density and extended range.

Given how the prominent EV makers are all going towards structural batteries nowadays, you can dream all you want about these standardized replaceable battery packs, it's just incredibly divorced from reality.

EVs are not empty shells into which you insert x number of standard battery modules. The reason most EVs are in any way tolerable/appealing to drive is because it's designed around the battery. Easy low-effort "electrification" vehicles (Ranger EV, RAV4 EV, F150 Lightning) all died on that hill for good reason, and are all intended as one-offs for good reason.

Have you ever driven meaningful distances with 1000/2000 pounds of payload in the back of a stock F150 or Super Duty? It changes every single one of the vehicle's handling characteristics significantly. It's an entirely different vehicle.

There are a bunch of companies that have shown off their own battery replacement stations/equipment for years, but the only standardization you can hope for in the reasonably near term is in charging.

It's a bit like people who bitch about phones and laptops not being completely modular. Yes, the manufacturers' argument that it's impossible to do is also hogwash, anything is doable. But you can't expect to do all that without making sacrifices, and those sacrifices can't be dealbreakers (ie. preserve same build quality and svelte form factor you've come to love in normal laptops and phones). Fairphone is great but design and hardware-wise it's not even remotely competitive with anything from the upper-midrange and up. Framework is great but it's not cheap, build quality has never been its strong suit (in the 13), and about as chunky as you'd expect (in the 16).

 

[Space Lynx]

Given how the prominent EV makers are all going towards structural batteries nowadays, you can dream all you want about these standardized replaceable battery packs, it's just incredibly divorced from reality.

I think this is true for North America, but other countries are already doing battery swap locations for their EV scooters (I know Taiwan is 100%), I could see Asian small car economies also going this route eventually. If Toyota lands a solid state battery doing 725 miles and a 10 minute charge as they claim in 2027 though... then we can throw all this out the window... time will tell.

 

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
you need to get away from thinking of "just" batteries (by themselves).
dji has made Li-ion use on gear pretty save, by putting the controls in the pack.
sure it adds cost, but battery life is usually longer than plain packs (unless user mistreats on purpose).

my friend wasted almost 300$ (4 packs) for his drone because he left them below storage charge for month.
dji batteries self discharge to storage voltage (if left charged too long),
will show charge lvl on unit, so i know when i have to refill to keep it from degrading.
i spend the same for just 3 packs, but mine were still in like new condition after 1y, when selling the drone.

its easy to have packs coming with status leds, and incl some stats a tech can pull up on a diag system, and remove "bad" packs from
(circulation) use.
it probably will go in that direction, as recharging is useless for things like (e-) racing, short of things like caps being used (not batteries).

Ah, yes, even more hassle. Thanks, but no thanks, I say to EVs. I'm out (that is, nothing will convince me to buy one as long as ICE is available).

We need the same price and convenience as ICE offers right now. Until then, all the "but but..." comments will be moot.

 

[Waldorf]

not sure why some expect that everyone needs to be able to drive +200mls, when +90% dont.
this changes how many batteries a vehicle needs, ignoring that even if i add a small 3 cyl diesel to run as a generator (not driving car directly),
im still better off with those, than gasoline driven cars, so we can do something now to reduce emissions...

you can do those few long distance trips with bus/train/plane, doesnt have to be a 3t F150 with 1T of batteries...

my personal problem with toyota is they arent the "first", other brands did it 20y ago, nor are they offering anything substantially "better",
nor is 1 company enough to change the market, seen as their own line-up isnt fully hybrid/e-car.
we dont need "come look at me" crap they can do in 20y, we need viable solutions NOW.

 

[KrazyT]

not sure why some expect that everyone needs to be able to drive +200mls, when +90% dont.

Here in Europe, i'm agree with you, but it seems 200 mls in the US is too short.
Doen't seems unusual there to make +200 mls to go to the Mall, or other activities ...

do you really think no german car maker is using hydrogen, because its the best solution?

Well ... BMW do some researchs in hydrogen cars with fully working protoypes, (and even tried this +10 years ago)
And it's seems they'll working with Toyota to produce some cars by 2025 ...
here (in french-sorry)

 

[Waldorf]

except the US is only 5% of the planets population, so not really the calibration point for driving distances

thats my point, they did it 20y, and Toyota acts like they invented the wheel (PR wise).

 

[defaultluser]

How does charging work? and by that I meant $$

well, since theyre aiming at long-haul and local trucking, it will likely need to be as-seamless-as Tesla's system (but with less up-charge, becaus the feds are covering the research costs, so just install plus supply costs?)

 

[AusWolf]

not sure why some expect that everyone needs to be able to drive +200mls, when +90% dont.
this changes how many batteries a vehicle needs, ignoring that even if i add a small 3 cyl diesel to run as a generator (not driving car directly),
im still better off with those, than gasoline driven cars, so we can do something now to reduce emissions...

you can do those few long distance trips with bus/train/plane, doesnt have to be a 3t F150 with 1T of batteries...

Not sure why you expect the 10% to change their job, lifestyle, hobbies, move houses, etc. to justify a technology that only works with the other 90% when we already have a technology that works with 100%.
Not to mention, that 10% is closer to 40-50% here in the UK, the nation of terraced houses.

I don't need a 3t F150, but I do need a small runabout that lasts me a full week of travelling to work (240-250 miles per week) on a single charge/fill, and doesn't screw me over on road trips.

 

[Waldorf]

i should have said "per day".
its an issue when ppl have to drive +80 mls to get to/from work, nothing to do +300 mls range on a single charge.

big part of the problem with emissions is ppl driving large distances (especially N.A.) instead of living closer
(or stores carrying stuff from the other side of the planet, that need to be shipped long distances, e.g. Fidji water)

ignoring that, even if your not coming home (after work) for a week, you will stay/sleep somewhere,
so partial charging pur EVs during non-work hours is possible...

 

[AusWolf]

i should have said "per day".
its an issue when ppl have to drive +80 mls to get to/from work, nothing to do +300 mls range on a single charge.

big part of the problem with emissions is ppl driving large distances (especially N.A.) instead of living closer
(or stores carrying stuff from the other side of the planet, that need to be shipped long distances, e.g. Fidji water)

ignoring that, even if your not coming home (after work) for a week, you will stay/sleep somewhere,
so partial charging pur EVs during non-work hours is possible...

"Per day" only applies to people who can charge per day, for which you need your own charging infrastructure at home, which many people (myself included) can't have. Even though I use that 250-ish miles on a weekly basis, I need to do it on a single charge/fill. Stopping at a station after work and waiting for hours to charge every single day is not an option.

Working away from home is an issue, but it is a large-scale societal one. Many people can't find a suitable job close to home these days, and many others pursue careers that bring them further away from home. This is an essential feature of modern-day capitalism, which won't be solved by EVs, neither would it be fair to force everybody to change everything about their lives to adopt a massive inconvenience. Society (more precisely: the job market) forced most of us into a lifestyle that's not very good (working away from home), and now the EV industry says that it's our own fault. Do you see the hypocrisy here?

 

[Waldorf]

sure, but for those +200 mls stuff its easy to put a small (diesel) engine to work as a generator (able to run at specific rpm for most efficiency).

never said anything to the contrary, nor did i say evs are for everything or everyone, but need to match the use, and most will need less mls/charge,
so forcing all EVs to cover that, is wrong, the same way not every car has 7 seats or space like a delivery truck (because "a few" need it).

 

[AusWolf]

sure, but for those +200 mls stuff its easy to put a small (diesel) engine to work as a generator (able to run at specific rpm for most efficiency).

never said anything to the contrary, nor did i say evs are for everything or everyone, but need to match the use, and most will need less mls/charge,
so forcing all EVs to cover that, is wrong, the same way not every car has 7 seats or space like a delivery truck (because "a few" need it).

Diesel pollutes more than petrol (gasoline), but this is besides the point.

If you mean we should change the slogan "the future is electric" to "the future is hybrid", I guess I'm not against that.

 

[Waldorf]

depends what your accounting for, i go by overall emissions, from producing until after use, and even varies depending on source.
well electric as means of running a motor, definitely is, but yeah.

a larger network of stations to charge (over night at parking of big stores/shopping center etc.) makes more sense, then to increase range (first).
would you need +300 mls range, if you can (wirelessly) charge everywhere you can "publicly" park?!

 

[AusWolf]

depends what your accounting for, i go by overall emissions, from producing until after use, and even varies depending on source.
well electric as means of running a motor, definitely is, but yeah.

a larger network of stations to charge (over night at parking of big stores/shopping center etc.) makes more sense, then to increase range (first).
would you need +300 mls range, if you can (wirelessly) charge everywhere you can "publicly" park?!

Nobody parks at a shopping centre overnight.

What EVs need to become mainstream, imo, is
1. 300+ miles range,
2. Extremely quick charge times (15-30 minutes at most),
3. A battery technology that is weight-efficient, easy and environmentally friendly to produce and recycle, doesn't degrade, or at least doesn't cost an arm and a leg to replace if it does,
4. A unified charging standard across all manufacturers, and
5. To be cheap.

Until all of these conditions are met, EVs will be a niche/fad. Hybrid could be a good middle ground.

 

[Waldorf]

@AusWolf
again, sure for you, but not everyone on the planet is "you" as target customer.
e.g. many in N.A. do, nor is it limited to those places, just trying to look at it globally, not a single market.
just something that most 1st world cities have (in some form), and for all i care it can be dedicated charging places,
but those areas with little (free) space left, are better off "converting" existing places.

how about having embedded chargers for street parking, anywhere we have powerlines for trams,
especially at night is usually reduced service, allowing for some "drain" from cars charging.

ionce your car can get a charge virtually anywhere you can park, single charge range isnt that important anymore.
in short, we should have priorities based on what gives the most bang for the buck (to improve/upgrade), vs fixating on a single thing (only).

 

[dragontamer5788]

sure, but for those +200 mls stuff its easy to put a small (diesel) engine to work as a generator (able to run at specific rpm for most efficiency).

I'm perfectly cool with people buying PHEVs with 40-mile range and generators. In fact, I plan to buy such a car as my next vehicle. Minimize the expensive battery pack, maximize the efficacy of charging. The new Prius has over 200HP of power, a good 7-seconds zero-to-sixty time, etc. etc.

But I also see potential in using excess H2, gathered from the ammonia production cycle necessary for fertilizer, as a mode of transportation. So I'm also supportive of hydrogen. Especially on the heavy-end where H2 has advantages.

 

[claes]

I liked this thread more when it was about new transportation tech and less about city planning. A better solution than cars is already available if we’re talking about scale, but it’d be more if an investment than anyone’s willing to make.

 

[Space Lynx]

Nobody parks at a shopping centre overnight.

What EVs need to become mainstream, imo, is
1. 300+ miles range,
2. Extremely quick charge times (15-30 minutes at most),
3. A battery technology that is weight-efficient, easy and environmentally friendly to produce and recycle, doesn't degrade, or at least doesn't cost an arm and a leg to replace if it does,
4. A unified charging standard across all manufacturers, and
5. To be cheap.

Until all of these conditions are met, EVs will be a niche/fad. Hybrid could be a good middle ground.

same, I agree with this, if Toyota is not lying and really can produce this new solid state breakthrough they have had in 2027 it will be game changing, it exceeds all your expectations you have listed, range and charging too, also including the cheap part, as they said it will be cheaper to manufacture than current EV cars the way they are designed. I really hope its not hyperbole and they come through in 2027, it will shatter the market, and all these billions Ford and Tesla have invested in traditional EV batteries will be completely useless... why would anyone in their right mind buy a 40k Tesla that gets 400 mile range, takes an hr to charge, when you can get a 25k toyota that gets double the range and 10 min charge time.

that being said, even if toyota is successful, it will be years before any of us can get our hands on one because they will be sold out constantly if they manage to pull this off.

 

[Waldorf]

@claes
well ignoring things wont help, cars are here to stay for now, and infrastructure etc, is part of it, if we like it or not..

@Space Lynx
too many ifs (for now), and its a couple of years, so tech others are using, can still "change" till then.

 

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
again, sure for you, but not everyone on the planet is "you" as target customer.
e.g. many in N.A. do, nor is it limited to those places, just trying to look at it globally, not a single market.
just something that most 1st world cities have (in some form), and for all i care it can be dedicated charging places,
but those areas with little (free) space left, are better off "converting" existing places.

how about having embedded chargers for street parking, anywhere we have powerlines for trams,
especially at night is usually reduced service, allowing for some "drain" from cars charging.

ionce your car can get a charge virtually anywhere you can park, single charge range isnt that important anymore.
in short, we should have priorities based on what gives the most bang for the buck (to improve/upgrade), vs fixating on a single thing (only).

Of course not everyone is me, but as long as there is a layer in society that EVs don't satisfy, petrol and diesel will stay relevant. I'm only an example.

EVs in their current state are not good. More investment is needed, either in them, or in alternative technologies (like hydrogen).

Charging when parked anywhere is not a solution as long as you don't park at a shopping centre (example) long enough to get a full charge. Many people use their cars only for work.

The new Prius has over 200HP of power, a good 7-seconds zero-to-sixty time, etc. etc.

What? Seriously?

 

[Shrek]

Not bad looking either

 

[Waldorf]

would love to see some polo/golf (sized stuff) as ev, with a big cap for acc like overtaking on hwg, and a small generator engine as backup.
and with blutec, it would get at least 80 mpg on diesel alone.