Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[dragontamer5788]

@dragontamer5788 he literally shows you the math and the graphs in the video and even shows you his actual bill from the energy department. your refusal to see logic and reason is beyond my ability to fix, good luck to you.

And the contract? Who owns the panels?

This is my primary area of criticism of the SolarCity scam. SolarCity was well known for hawking incredibly awful contracts and pushing you into thinking it was a good deal. Well, its just marketing / bullshittery, but they were especially pushy about this.

There's a reason why this company went nearly bankrupt and cried out to cousin-Elon to buy them out. The fact that they live on in zombie-form inside of Tesla to trick more people into their bad deals is aggravating, they should have just gone bankrupt and disappeared properly, to make room for the legitimate solar companies out there. If anyone is buying a house with a SolarCity lease on the damn roof, it means you don't own the roof despite buying the house. Its awful, stay far, far away from this crap.

-----------

And I'm not watching a 30-minute Youtube influencer try to market / hawk goods out to me. Yeah, he's doing a sales pitch. Welcome to marketing and sales, that's what they do and they do it over Youtube now. I'll read a proper 3rd party review from my trusted sources (Consumer Reports and other such sites) to form my opinion on this matter. In any case, the solar-city leases are some of the worst deals you could sign in the last decade of products offered towards homeowners. I seriously caution everyone away from them.

 

[Space Lynx]

And the contract? Who owns the panels?

you own the panels... that's what buying a new roof is about... who is SolarCity? Tesla makes all of their own solar panel tiles in-house...

And I'm not watching a 30-minute Youtube influencer try to market

take care then.

 

[dragontamer5788]

you own the panels... that's what buying a new roof is about... who is SolarCity? Tesla makes all of their own solar panel tiles in-house...

SolarCity is the company Elon Musk's cousin owned before it got in trouble and cousin-billionare had to rescue them in one of the most corrupt and nepotism based buyouts of the last decade.

How Elon Musk transformed his cousins' solar panel company into Tesla Energy, which has faced lawsuits from angry shareholders and consumers

Tesla bought SolarCity in 2016. The solar company was run by Elon Musk's cousins, and some Tesla shareholders argued the deal was a bailout.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[claes]

Fwiw it looks like they no longer lease panels, but yeah scummy company bought by scummy guy is probably still scummy

 

[Space Lynx]

SolarCity is the company Elon Musk's cousin owned before it got in trouble and cousin-billionare had to rescue them in one of the most corrupt and nepotism based buyouts of the last decade.

How Elon Musk transformed his cousins' solar panel company into Tesla Energy, which has faced lawsuits from angry shareholders and consumers

Tesla bought SolarCity in 2016. The solar company was run by Elon Musk's cousins, and some Tesla shareholders argued the deal was a bailout.

www.businessinsider.com

a lot can change in 7 years. it's probably run by entirely different people. regardless, I can't afford a Tesla roof and neither can you most likely, so this conversation is null anyway. I do think regardless of company, solar roofs should be the future, alongside credit buybacks for the energy you put back into the grid. just makes sense to me, I saw a lot of houses in England of all places with solar roofs, it must work otherwise they wouldn't do it.

but continue to be negative, however if all you can do is share negative energy I am going to have to block you, cause ain't got no time for that mate

Fwiw it looks like they no longer lease panels, but yeah scummy company bought by scummy guy is probably still scummy

well marqee's roof seems to be working just fine and many other customers, they had some bumpy road early on though like solar roofs catching fire, etc. they fixed those issues and are better polished now though. Ford was a shit company not that long ago, but are doing pretty dang good these days fixing customer service complaints, etc. So is your argument that a company can't change and get better ever?

 

[dragontamer5788]

I can't afford a Tesla roof and neither can you most likely

Well that's a weird assumption.

But in any case, community solar is probably the best idea: community run solar panels that are pooled together and owned together. Reduce roof accidents, minimize roof damage. Roofs are for roofs. IMO rooftop solar is mostly stupid because its nailing into your roof and compromising your shingles. I spent good money and research looking for thick, protective, shingles just to have nails or screws ruining it all.

So just fundamentally, solar panels on roofs makes no sense because the land out there in Rural-wherever you are is likely under $50k for dozens of acres. A solar company can install an entire field of solar panels without any risk to roofers (or the insurance costs), or the damage to people's roofs. Then they run a wire from those solar panels back to the grid, and the electricity those panels generate lower your utility bill.

Guess how much this community solar costs me?

$0.

Zip. Nada. Absolutely no cost to me what so ever.

My Utility bill is 10% lower and my house is powered by Solar now, no roof damage required or large-scale investments from me personally. All I've done is sign a few contracts stating that I'll pay for my electricity from these Solar Panels and they've switched my electric bills to be 10% less than whatever my utility company would have billed me. (So I'm saving 10% off of all my electricity-generation portion of my utility bill all for the low-low cost of just signing a few papers and handling this paperwork)

----------

There's other ways to skin a cat and switch to solar power. I've done my research and have chosen my methodology. There's lots of good options out there, but I must emphasize that the one you decided to back is among the worst possible solar I can think of on the market. Choose anything else, literally anything else, and you'll do better than them.

Community solar "is bad" because you don't get to brag to your neighbors or show off your $expensive solar panels. But I don't give a crap about keeping up with the Joneses. Community solar just obviously is a better model. But if you really do want to own your own panels, then be sure to buy from a respectable company.

 

[AusWolf]

I wonder if in like two hundred years other humans will look back on us and be like how were they so dumb, all they had to do was use these giant magnets in a push pull setup to move the pistons... haha jk I have no idea.

We can look back at any past and find all sorts of dumb things. That's why I don't think judging the past is wise. Everyone has gone through stupid phases, even humanity as a whole. I could point out MANY things in our present day that I'm 100% certain people a few hundred years from now will find utterly idiotic and nonsensical, but I won't, as it would be seriously off topic.

Back on topic though, I would like to remind everyone that I think the greatest thing would be for hydrogen to power the big heavy stuff, like semi-trucks, since all semi-trucks typically only stop at specific sites on their path, it would be a much easier rollout and easier to manage distribution system of hydrogen tank stations to fill up. Then regular gas cars in the northern states (because you still need plastics from left over oil byproduct anyway and EV doesn't do well in the northern cold), solar paneled EV in places like Nevada/Arizona... the Aptera car comes to mind if I lived in that area, and if toyota comes through with solid state tech - then that would be for everyone else. Also diversifying the countries energy like this is probably a great benefit to national security.

Whether hydrogen or electric, I think large corporations have to pioneer it anyway. They've got the money for adopting new tech, not common people, so if something drives the infrastructure forward, it should be them. I didn't ask for a world where almost everybody works away from home 5 days a week without a choice for good public transport, or one where people order useless stuff with home delivery every single day, but here we are. Companies wanted it like that, so let them deal with the consequences first.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Whether hydrogen or electric, I think large corporations have to pioneer it anyway. They've got the money for adopting new tech, not common people, so if something drives the infrastructure forward, it should be them. I didn't ask for a world where almost everybody works away from home 5 days a week without a choice for good public transport, or one where people order useless stuff with home delivery every single day, but here we are. Companies wanted it like that, so let them deal with the consequences first.

For better or worse, we have a military-industrial complex. And that complex was invoked to create many things recently, including supporting the COVID19 vaccine.

Free-market innovation has its place. But we shouldn't ignore government-sponsored innovation. Manhattan project, Moon Program, strategic supercomputers (used for COVID19 modeling), etc. etc. Private companies can create huge infrastructure projects (ex: Bath County Pumped Hydro). Government research can split the atom and provide research for companies to use.

------------

Public Transit is controlled, by and large, by the government. There are companies / free-market actors, but if we expect innovation in the public-transit space it almost certainly must start with Government action. (or at very least, its the easiest way I can think of moving forward).

There's also public-private partnerships. Such as GM's Hydrogen Fuel Cell for the US Army. Army requested a Fuel Cell to power remote army bases in Afghanistan, and private-companies delivered. I dunno how successful it was but I do remember hearing of its deployment and experimentation. The Army constantly has to innovate and (at least during peacetime) it just makes sense for the Army to experiment with these kinds of technologies. If it doesn't work, no harm no foul, just use the old stuff.

 

[claes]

So is your argument that a company can't change and get better ever?

No it’s that Elon is a greasy crook and will likely continue to be a greasy crook

 

[Space Lynx]

No it’s that Elon is a greasy crook and will likely continue to be a greasy crook

I'm not a fan of Elon, but he doesn't even barely do anything at Tesla anymore. I bet he hasn't even visited that solar factory once since Tesla bought it, Elon is one person, these companies employ thousands upon thousands with a hierarchical structure. It's the problem with our society, we generalize way too much about an entire entity over one single person. This can be applied to just about every topic we face in modern society. Be more objective, you of all people know this.

 

[dragontamer5788]

I'm not a fan of Elon, but he doesn't even barely do anything at Tesla anymore.

Elon is literally the CEO and largest shareholder, and his cousin sits on the board of directors (and the board of directors have never punished Elon for doing anything).

Tesla is in absolute, and complete, control by Elon.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Most cars still cost more to charge than to fill up with gas — when you take other expenses like home charging and fees into account

Fueling a regular F-150 and charging a Lightning may cost the same, but fueling smaller cars may still costs less than plugging in, on average.

www.businessinsider.com

This one popped up for me today. Worth a read.

 

[Space Lynx]

Most cars still cost more to charge than to fill up with gas — when you take other expenses like home charging and fees into account

Fueling a regular F-150 and charging a Lightning may cost the same, but fueling smaller cars may still costs less than plugging in, on average.

www.businessinsider.com

This one popped up for me today. Worth a read.

I'm not sure how this is possible, I did the math myself, and my electricity rate 14 cents a kilowatt hour, and its 70 kwh to charge a Tesla Model 3, so that is $10 rounded up for a full charge on the Model 3. Round it up again to about 15 dollars to match a gas powered 13 gallon car.

My math indicates its still about 1/3 the cost of charging vs gas prices, not to mention we haven't even added in all the maintenance costs, oil changes every 3000 miles, etc that that EV will never need. Might as well add in a mechanic who is going to scam you out of a couple hundred for some of those gas car repair bills too, never met an honest one yet.

 

[Shrek]

I think the charging stations may charge more than 14c a KWh

 

[Space Lynx]

I think the charging stations may charge more than 14c a KWh

well, I am not stupid, and would be charging at home. so the charging stations can suck it. its not like Americans get longer than one week vacations anyway, so just charge at home, lol

 

[AusWolf]

Most cars still cost more to charge than to fill up with gas — when you take other expenses like home charging and fees into account

Fueling a regular F-150 and charging a Lightning may cost the same, but fueling smaller cars may still costs less than plugging in, on average.

www.businessinsider.com

This one popped up for me today. Worth a read.

A colleague of mine told me he once got billed £150 at a public charger. His Nissan Leaf has a range of about 100 miles.

As a comparison, a tank of petrol costs me £60, and I can go almost 400 miles on it.

 

[defaultluser]

A colleague of mine told me he once got billed £150 at a public charger. His Nissan Leaf has a range of about 100 miles.

As a comparison, a tank of petrol costs me £60, and I can go almost 400 miles on it.

I can see this, as long as gas prices remain subsidized; its hard to imagine Tesla Supercharger getting anything but a minimum-subsidy for the next decade! But, that doesn't mean that most overnight home chargers are so much more expensive, right?

once demand for gas drops, the the drop in mass-production, plus increase in subsidy given for NACS (from future infrastructure improvement bills), the difference will more-than match gas stations!

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

I'm not sure how this is possible, I did the math myself, and my electricity rate 14 cents a kilowatt hour, and its 70 kwh to charge a Tesla Model 3, so that is $10 rounded up for a full charge on the Model 3. Round it up again to about 15 dollars to match a gas powered 13 gallon car.

My math indicates its still about 1/3 the cost of charging vs gas prices, not to mention we haven't even added in all the maintenance costs, oil changes every 3000 miles, etc that that EV will never need. Might as well add in a mechanic who is going to scam you out of a couple hundred for some of those gas car repair bills too, never met an honest one yet.

That's a pretty decent rate for your electricity.

 

[Space Lynx]

That's a pretty decent rate for your electricity.

I live close to a coal powered power plant, the cheap electricity probably comes with some diseases, lmao

 

[AusWolf]

I can see this, as long as gas prices remain subsidized; its hard to imagine Tesla Supercharger getting anything but a minimum-subsidy for the next decade! But, that doesn't mean that most overnight home chargers are so much more expensive, right?

once demand for gas drops, the the drop in mass-production, plus increase in subsidy given for NACS (from future infrastructure improvement bills), the difference will more-than match gas stations!

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, I'm happy with what I have.

 

[dragontamer5788]

well, I am not stupid, and would be charging at home. so the charging stations can suck it. its not like Americans get longer than one week vacations anyway, so just charge at home, lol

• Entry-priced cars and crossovers: In the entry-priced segment, gas-powered cars were the most economical to fuel at around $9.78 per 100 purposeful miles. That’s significantly more affordable than an entry-priced EV charged mostly at home ($12.55), and it’s a dramatic savings over an EV charged mostly at commercial charging stations ($15.97).

Hmm, I'll have to look into this more. This study isn't what I expected. I ran the numbers on various cars and have found that Hybrids / PHEVs seem cheaper to fill up with electricity.

 

[defaultluser]

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, I'm happy with what I have.

if you live in the middle of nowhere, gas costs nothing- you pay nowhere near the correct price, or-else then nobody would bother collecting-then gassing-up five diesel trucks-per--household in the Midwest?

instead,you get a controlled price nationwide, and only see a small discount if you live five miles from a refinery, while big cities plus California end-up subsidizing things for the rest of us

I mean, why else do major brands in the USA all have multiple breweries per-state in many populated areas? because the cost is too high to ship liquid across borders (it needs to be liquor before they make money shipping overseas)



by the time you take-into-account the spread-out oil refineries in this country, plus the fact so much barley and hops equivalent (see: light and heavy crude ) are shipped from overseas, its amazing we pay so little for gas in this country! there massive subsidies moving these mountains, sand if you doont think there cant be similarly-cheap electric wireless networks built exclusively for long-distance trucking,under interstates then you lack imagination!

 

[AusWolf]

if you live in the middle of nowhere, gas costs nothing- you pay nowhere near the correct price, or-else then nobody would bother collecting-then gassing-up five diesel trucks-per--household in the Midwest?

instead,you get a controlled price nationwide, and only see a small discount if you live five miles from a refinery, while big cities plus California end-up subsidizing things for the rest of us

I mean, why else do major brands in the USA all have multiple breweries per-state in many populated areas? because the cost is too high to ship liquid across borders (it needs to be liquor before they make money shipping overseas)



by the time you take-into-account the spread-out oil refineries in this country, plus the fact so much barley and hops equivalent (see: light and heavy crude ) are shipped from overseas, its amazing we pay so little for gas in this country! there massive subsidies moving these mountains, sand if you doont think there cant be similarly-cheap electric wireless networks built exclusively for long-distance trucking,under interstates then you lack imagination!

Trucking, sure, that's a great idea! Like I said earlier, I expect companies to try new stuff and build new infrastructure first.

I was talking more on a personal level. As long as I'm happy with petrol, and as long as the problems I discussed above (or a few pages earlier) don't get solved, I'll keep using it.

 

[defaultluser]

Trucking, sure, that's a great idea! Like I said earlier, I expect companies to try new stuff and build new infrastructure first.

I was talking more on a personal level. As long as I'm happy with petrol, and as long as the problems I discussed above (or a few pages earlier) don't get solved, I'll keep using it.

trucks are a necessary first step in any country, but upside to semis first is, once they figure-out wireless real-time charging for peak stuff like the winter package rush then they will finally offer cheap real-time charge during the off-season for everyone who suddenly don't need the massive peak-capacity for nine more months! expect new consumer cars to offer compatible charge rings soon AFTER THIS PEAK!

then,once this massive charge network started to add way-more peak off-season demand (things like multi-state bus/coach roads-trips, OR ELECTRIFIED Uber LOAD), then the demand will be self-driving,and stabilizing to be ready for things like federal regulation for rates (see: TVA for previous justification for nationalization of the NETWORK!/negotiating those rates for all those users!

https://www.tva.com/newsroom/press-releases/tva-board-holds-base-rates-steady-increases-customer-credits-for-fy23

once the entire interstate has massive wireless-plate electrical supplies, then nationalization of the network is the only efficient way-forward! HAT,ANDF ALSO THE ONLY WAY TO COMETE WITYH THE MASSIBVE GTESLA NETWOPRK

 

[claes]

All seems silly to me to speculate about, things work from the bottom-down in this world. The rich’ll have their conveniences and then decide what’s best for us pleebs