Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[the54thvoid]

Hmmm ... Not sure Yamaha is owned by Toy' ?

Yamaha have worked on engines for Toyota (who hold a 5% stake in Yamaha). But as far as I can see, correct, Yamaha its own company.

 

[KrazyT]

Yamaha have worked on engines for Toyota (who hold a 5% stake in Yamaha). But as far as I can see, correct, Yamaha its own company.

Yes, and what engines ! (The V10 for the LFA )
Didn't know for the 5% stake

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Yamaha have worked on engines for Toyota (who hold a 5% stake in Yamaha). But as far as I can see, correct, Yamaha its own company.

3.74%...in Toyota and 4.67% Yamaha itself. Other percentage to 100% are in other investors.

 

[Space Lynx]

from the White House:

Seven billion dollars of this program is going towards the development of the regional clean hydrogen hubs that will catalyze multistate hydrogen ecosystems that ultimately will expand and connect to form a national hydrogen economy.

https://www.science.org/content/article/u-s-hands-out-7-billion-hydrogen-hubs

I think this is a good thing, its as I said several times earlier in this thread, there is no one answer, some areas will be hydrogen areas, gas will still be everywhere since its already established, some electric, some solar powered cars, depending where you live. if you want to do a long trip and you don't have gas, well fly and rent a car, which is what you should prob do anyway for very long trips.

a lot of gas users should be happy about this honestly. remember how cheap gas was during covid? that was because less usage. supply and demand, so the more and more adoption of EV and hydrogen offsets demand prices should come down for everyone, unless its all corrupt/greed (which it most likely is based on what I just watched of the latest episode from John Oliver on the McKinsey Consulting Firm) lol

Spoiler: for those interested

 

[mplayerMuPDF]

Toyota is trying to leapfrog the competition by going straight to EVs based on more advanced battery technology (developed in-house, so they can become vertically integrated like China's BYD): Toyota nears production of solid-state battery, claiming 700+ km EVs coming soon with better fire safety and faster charging I am not sure that it is accurate to say that they are behind just yet. If their ambitious projects fail, then it will be clear. We can also say that Toyota is betting on multiple horses at this point.

 

[Shrek]

White hydrogen

They went hunting for fossil fuels. What they found could help save the world | CNN

 

[mb194dc]

Sold state batteries are vapoware. Nowhere near possible in the cost envelope for a mass market vehicle and unlikely to be for decades. BEV generally has massive practical drawbacks outside of some very narrow use cases.

Hydrogen fcEV vehicles already exist. Just need to have h2 available at gas stations and you're good to go.

They have the practical benefits of ICE and the environmental benefits of BEV. I reckon Japan goes first with them and also crucially fcEV will work for trucks easily as well. So Toyota probably will dominate the market for decades to come.

 

[Space Lynx]

White hydrogen

They went hunting for fossil fuels. What they found could help save the world | CNN

yeah I read this recently, thanks for posting it here. This is my point in regards to targeted environmental changes, so that area of the world should look into transitioning to hydrogen, southwest USA/Mexico should do massive amounts of solar panels in the desert and go EV, and many others stay on cars or hybrids... its such a shame we can't come together as a species and fix this. Greed truly has blinded us too much and it makes me sad.

I have decided I am going to save up some money and put some solar panels on my roof and possibly make the move to EV in about 4 or 5 years. For now I am happy with cheap car though

 

[Shrek]

I still think it a better idea if the generating companies build and maintain their own solar fields; but this thread is about hydrogen as the energy carrier.

 

[Space Lynx]

I still think it a better idea if the generating companies build and maintain their own solar fields; but this thread is about hydrogen as the energy carrier.

Companies have a bad habit of gouging people, I'd like to have my own solar roof to have some leverage of their greed, especially to offset the air conditioner usage in the summer months when the solar would generating at max, so win win.

As far as hydrogen goes though, I am glad Toyota never gave up on and still isn't giving up on it. I think they were smart, hybrid cards make a lot of sense, but in time we need to transition, so keep developing out those other areas of hydrogen and ev nice and slow, they get criticism, but honestly I think they deserve praise for this type of business model, it makes a lot of sense to me anyway.

 

[Shrek]

I am reluctant to buy new; by keeping my 25 year old car running, the money to buy a new car can stay in investments and that generates the repair and running costs of my old clunker; same argument for solar cells.

 

[onemanhitsquad]

Toyota's ammonia engine is making waves...it may push past hydrogen or get squashed like hydrogen.

White hydrogen

They went hunting for fossil fuels. What they found could help save the world | CNN

The world doesn't need us to "save" it...it will save itself as it has done for 3 billion years...humans on the other hand have always been at risk of exstinction.

 

[Shrek]

There is an interesting, if somewhat flawed argument that one is most likely to be born into a time of the largest population; if true then we are near the end; but this is off topic.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

Sold state batteries are vapoware. Nowhere near possible in the cost envelope for a mass market vehicle and unlikely to be for decades. BEV generally has massive practical drawbacks outside of some very narrow use cases.

People said the same thing of lithium ion powered cars, hydrogen fuel cells, rockets escaping the atmosphere, ece.

They are, by definition, not vaporware. Both NASA and toyota have functioning examples. Now building them at any sort of scale, that is currently an issue. But the tech is real, if still a prototype.

Hydrogen fcEV vehicles already exist. Just need to have h2 available at gas stations and you're good to go.

They have the practical benefits of ICE and the environmental benefits of BEV. I reckon Japan goes first with them and also crucially fcEV will work for trucks easily as well. So Toyota probably will dominate the market for decades to come.

Hydrogen will make far more sense in trucks then it will cars, I could see most big rigs running hydrogen.

 

[Shrek]

This all begs the question as to why LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) is still a niche product, and it is easier to contain than hydrogen.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

This all begs the question as to why LPG (Liquid Petoleoum Gas) is still a niche product, and it is easier to contain than hydrogen.

The answer is in the name, IMO. LPG isnt a green source, so unless you are somewhere with dirt cheap LPG, it makes 0 sense. "LPG is prepared by refining petroleum or "wet" natural gas, and is almost entirely derived from fossil fuel sources, being manufactured during the refining of petroleum (crude oil), or extracted from petroleum or natural gas streams as they emerge from the ground." - wikipedia

Side note, an extended family member has a van converted to LPG. His biggest complaint is that, for MPG, its WAY more expensive then gasoline, and there is only a single station within 500 miles that can fill him up.

 

[Shrek]

1 gal popane ~ 0.74 gal gas

but it is cheaper

Can't see how mile for mile it is way more expensive

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

1 gal popane ~ 0.74 gal gas

but it is cheaper

Can't see how mile for mile it is way more expensive

Because it isnt cheaper? At least here, he pays more per gallon for LPG then you would gasoline, and you get significantly worse fuel mileage, nearly half in some cases, 2/3rds in others.

It doesnt change much anyway, its still a fossil fuel, and LPG is more useful as a home heating fuel around here as opposed to a road fuel.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

There seems to be no difference in subject matter between methane and unrefined natural gas extracted from fields. Although there are no major natural gas fields in operation in my state. In my country, too, methane filling stations are few and far between, and this gas is unreasonably expensive. They try to claim its value by saying that it is produced by rotting plant matter in factories, ie. that it is from a renewable cycle. Very few people are interested in them, also the prefix "bio" (methane) because it is unprofitable to use. On the other hand, natural gas is almost twice as cheap per mile as cheap gasoline and nearly three times as cheap as the highest octane gasoline and diesel with additives.
We live in a world where money is everything. If we can't afford something financially, it won't be used, despite all the sweet talk about ecology.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

We live in a world where money is everything. If we can't afford something financially, it won't be used, despite all the sweet talk about ecology.

Well, short of using slave labor you have to pay SOMEONE to build and maintain the facilities and make the fuel, and all the pretty flowers dont buy you a week's worth of food.

 

[Space Lynx]

Well, short of using slave labor you have to pay SOMEONE to build and maintain the facilities and make the fuel, and all the pretty flowers dont buy you a week's worth of food.

I think the idea with hydrogen, is that if everyone did it and it became the new standard the volume production of it would lower cost for everyone. Everything about the free markets basically boils down to volume sales. It's probably too late to do this now though I admit. If we had done it like 40 years ago, and everyone was in the hydrogen car ecosystem right now, and solar panels on every roof, the world might have been saved. I don't think we are going in to a Venus run away greenhouse gas scenario, but humans are in for one hell of a bumpy ride.

 

[Space Lynx]

Hydrogen isn't dead? I am so confused by this decision by BMW. Even Germany did a hydrogen powered train recently, but took it out of commission after its first few runs, just no market for it I guess. Seems like companies keep trying their hardest though... I don't get it really.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/bmw-plans-bring-its-first-hydrogen-car-onto-market-2028-2024-09-05/

 

[dgianstefani]

Hydrogen isn't dead? I am so confused by this decision by BMW. Even Germany did a hydrogen powered train recently, but took it out of commission after its first few runs, just no market for it I guess. Seems like companies keep trying their hardest though... I don't get it really.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/bmw-plans-bring-its-first-hydrogen-car-onto-market-2028-2024-09-05/

View attachment 364385

Tax rebates or government grants.

 

[Space Lynx]

Tax rebates or government grants.

Good point, it is possibly just fluff because "that money has to go somewhere" so people can pat themselves on the back, well, that was dissappointing. I wish we could get some details on why Germany had a working and running hydrogen powered train, but decided to stop using it. It just would be nice to know why.

 

[Macro Device]

nice

What's nice is that you're still with us. I was afraid you were in some trouble. Didn't see ya in a while.