14900k - Tuned for efficiency - Gaming power draw

[Assimilator]

Its not, for the sake, you turn on the PC, hit del after 1 sec UEFI shows up, short cut to "HT off preset" - save - restart on PCIe NVMe 8 sec later you are good to go with HT off with 5-20% more fps (min/max/avg) for your own pesronal preference. Why? Because you paid the $$$ for it.

Its not dumb at all, it is just an individual use / show case.

Sorry kid, it's objectively dumb to pay $600 for a CPU if you're only using $300 of its features. No amount of Intel kool-aid can change that.

 

[AusWolf]

Sorry kid, it's objectively dumb to pay $600 for a CPU if you're only using $300 of its features. No amount of Intel kool-aid can change that.

Almost as dumb as buying a 24-core 250+ W CPU purely for gaming, and/or not considering a proper cooling solution around it.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Do you know that 4 E cores fit in the area of 1 P core and the E core has approx. 70% performance of the P core at the same frequency and they have similar energy efficiency?

E cores running at 4.4 GHz compared to P cores at 5.7 GHz cause approx. DOUBLE heat output per silicone area of the P cores. You have to be very careful about what frequency you make E cores run at.

E cores at 4700 MHz have approx. 2.4 higher heat output per silicone area compared to P cores running at 5.7 GHz.

E cores got their name from SILICONE AREA EFFICIENCY, not energy efficiency. You get a lot more performance from a given area of silicone from E cores than from P cores.

Yes actually I have read this information and is super valuable. Glad you have come to discuss more technical details rather than make this AMD vs Intel which is something I'm really trying to avoid here.

Effectively, I turn off the E-cores quite a bit for competitive benchmarking. However they are useful for some benchmarks that are sensitive to thread count, then I use them.

Stability, at least for my cpu I have, is much better with e-cores running a lower speed such as 4ghz vs say 4.3ghz.

One thing that I wish is they had their own v-core register so they could be better tuned for thermal output when the e-cores don't really need 1.40v I may run the cpu at while Pcores at 5.7ghz (as an example)

Yes I'm accomplished these numbers on an air cooler because my ambient temps are low enough for it. Rig is parked in the garage.

Seems some think I haven't the cooling capability, the issue is more so the density of the transistor count. Having a loop would net me a whopping 5.9ghz all core. And the Stability would be questionable even with cool temps.

Contemplated going direct die, but nah. If I want to go crazy, I'd just slap the dryice pot. I have a venom. It works extremely well for LN2 and DryIce actually. But this is hardly the forum for extreme cooling. I get beat up enough for running air cooling as it is.

 

[AusWolf]

Seems some think I haven't the cooling capability, the issue is more so the density of the transistor count.

If your CPU runs at Tjmax and has to throttle, or to take a few turbo bins back with out-of-the-box settings, then it means that your cooling is inadequate. If a custom loop is needed for a 14900K, then that's what's needed, period. It's poor design by Intel, but that's the truth. You either need to upgrade your cooling, or you should have bought a less hungry CPU. Sure, power/thermal limiting is an option, but if you're not using your CPU to its fullest, then you might have as well not spent so much on it in the first place.

TLDR: Blaming the transistor count won't cool your CPU better.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Its not, for the sake, you turn on the PC, hit del after 1 sec UEFI shows up, short cut to "HT off preset" - save - restart on PCIe NVMe 8 sec later you are good to go with HT off with 5-20% more fps (min/max/avg) for your own pesronal preference. Why? Because you paid the $$$ for it.

Its not dumb at all, it is just an individual use / show case.

This is pretty accurate. You paid for it, do what you want with it. Don't worry about what these guys say. You're not dumb for turning off and on features. That's why the adjustments are supplied in the bios.

Those kind of people make me think they buy a car, leave it completely stock and use it to its full potential every key cycle. Also, they don't tint the windows, leave the spare tire in the car, won't modify the stereo for sub woofers and think everyone should be like them.

Know what I say?? Fuck em.

If your CPU runs at Tjmax and has to throttle, or to take a few turbo bins back with out-of-the-box settings, then it means that your cooling is inadequate. If a custom loop is needed for a 14900K, then that's what's needed, period. It's poor design by Intel, but that's the truth. You either need to upgrade your cooling, or you should have bought a less hungry CPU. Sure, power/thermal limiting is an option, but if you're not using your CPU to its fullest, then you might have as well not spent so much on it in the first place.

TLDR: Blaming the transistor count won't cool your CPU better.

I've cooled more processors with every single cooling type, including and not limited to Peltier. Worry about yourself thanks.

 

[AusWolf]

This is pretty accurate. You paid for it, do what you want with it. Don't worry about what these guys say. You're not dumb for turning off and on features. That's why the adjustments are supplied in the bios.

Wanting to turn HT or cores off is not the same thing as having to turn HT or cores off for acceptable thermals.

Those kind of people make me think they buy a car, leave it completely stock and use it to its full potential every key cycle. Also, they don't tint the windows, leave the spare tire in the car, won't modify the stereo for sub woofers and think everyone should be like them.

My car is plenty powerful for my needs at stock and I don't need aftermarket subwoofers to enjoy my music. And your point is...?

I've cooled more processors with every single cooling type, including and not limited to Peltier. Worry about yourself thanks.

I'm not worried. I'm stating facts. Stock performance left on the table is wasted money.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Wanting to turn HT or cores off is not the same thing as having to turn HT or cores off for acceptable thermals.


My car is plenty powerful for my needs at stock and I don't need aftermarket subwoofers to enjoy my music. And your point is...?


I'm not worried. I'm stating facts. Stock performance left on the table is wasted money.

Facts??

Please show my screen shots indicating thermal throttling if you have these facts please.

I don't need e-cores to enjoy computing. Your point is?

 

[InVasMani]

If you step back for a second... you will see that 14th gen is now a 2 year old architecture on a 10nm (7n-mish node) competing with a newer architecture, on a newer 4nm node, and really only loses badly to the model with 3D cache in gaming efficiency.

If you compare it to the non-3d cache parts, or to the 3d cache parts in anything but gaming - it's less efficient, but it's also faster...

The fact that this chip is in contention for anything is nothing short of a miracle. There should be no way team blue is in the top 10 slots for any FPS chart, yet there they are. The only way to really do that is to yeet power until you hit 6ghz.

You don't really need to yeet power quite the way you describe if you don't want to disable 3 out of 4 E-cores in a cluster and you can drop the full power draw a lot yet still get all the upside of the E-cores cache structure being a bit different than the P-core and keeping it's power lower. Yeah you lose a lot of performance on the multi-thread, but it's one bios profile change away from full performance again. The same applies a lot to the P-cores disable all, but the 2 preferred fused max CPU ratio cores for turbo and disable the rest. Once again you lose multi-thread performance, but lower max power draw at load and it obviously runs less hot over time in general as well.

I experimented a bit with 3-P and 3-E on 14700K and it can push 6GHz w/o instantly freezing I even ran ATTO disk bench momentarily at that setting to test some disk compression performance. I could see possibly getting 6GHz or higher stable and I used 3-P cores rather than just 2. I pushed for 61 ratio though and it finally said enough at least a 1.35v CPU VID. Still not too shabby though. I also noticed that if you disable E-cores and P-cores it seemed to lessen vdroop under load a bit so that's neat.

Spoiler: Read

 

[AusWolf]

Facts??

Please show my screen shots indicating thermal throttling if you have these facts please.

You don't have thermal throttling? Cool, I wasn't talking about you, then.

I don't need e-cores to enjoy computing. Your point is?

Then why did you buy a CPU that has so many of them? If you personally didn't, then why would someone else? (edited)

 

[ShrimpBrime]

You don't have thermal throttling? Cool, I wasn't talking about you, then.


Then why did you buy a CPU that has so many of them? If you personally didn't, then why would someone else? (edited)

Because I didn't engineer it. So I'm stuck buying it. First.
Second, I wanted the higher binned P cores. And you buy higher end chips for that. So I started with a 13600KF. Was pretty fast, but won't reach the same clocks as the 13700K.

So I've purchased more than one cpu. Cause I can. So I can experience more than one. And for testing. I also have 3 LGA 1700 motherboards.

Because for you (maybe, I don't really know) you only need 1 processor and enjoy gaming and other stuff.

The difference is, I'm here talking about Raptor Lake and my experiences and you are talking about how my experiences are a waste of money.

I'm a PC hobbiest. An enthusiast of overclocking and tweaking.

I also like RC cars, model rockets and car stereo modifications, welding and fabrication.

I've even smelted down aluminum and poured my own Dry Ice pots.

Nice to meet you.

 

[InVasMani]

Next forge some weapons we want over 9000 layers of Damascus get smelting **** needs to be legendary quality.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

If your CPU runs at Tjmax and has to throttle... then it means that your cooling is inadequate.

If your CPU does that it means that it behaves as the producer configured it.

See this video, for example at 5:20

The only difference between Intel and AMD is that Intel CPUs can handle much higher power before they start hitting max temps because they are easier to cool. With 253W power limit and 360 AIO, Intel CPUs will not hit maximal temperature and will not throttle thermally, but due to power limit.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Next forge some weapons we want over 9000 layers of Damascus get smelting **** needs to be legendary quality.

No problem. Don't always have to forge or smelt some shit up.

Here's my 18" DryIce cannon.

This was made from 2" brass hand rail with a copper waterblock base used from an Old ThermalTake BigWaterSE loop.

 

[InVasMani]

I asked for 9000+ layers of Damascus and he offers a potato cannon...

 

[ShrimpBrime]

You don't really need to yeet power quite the way you describe if you don't want to disable 3 out of 4 E-cores in a cluster and you can drop the full power draw a lot yet still get all the upside of the E-cores cache structure being a bit different than the P-core and keeping it's power lower. Yeah you lose a lot of performance on the multi-thread, but it's one bios profile change away from full performance again. The same applies a lot to the P-cores disable all, but the 2 preferred fused max CPU ratio cores for turbo and disable the rest. Once again you lose multi-thread performance, but lower max power draw at load and it obviously runs less hot over time in general as well.

I experimented a bit with 3-P and 3-E on 14700K and it can push 6GHz w/o instantly freezing I even ran ATTO disk bench momentarily at that setting to test some disk compression performance. I could see possibly getting 6GHz or higher stable and I used 3-P cores rather than just 2. I pushed for 61 ratio though and it finally said enough at least a 1.35v CPU VID. Still not too shabby though. I also noticed that if you disable E-cores and P-cores it seemed to lessen vdroop under load a bit so that's neat.

Spoiler: Read

View attachment 326348

Just needs more v-core.

I've observed the following.
All Cores.
5.5ghz will go 100c
5.6ghz will go 90c
Disabled E-cores here.
5.7ghz will go 90c
5.9ghz will go 89c
6.0ghz 85c
6.1ghz 80c
P-core reduction
6.2ghz 79c
6.7ghz -30c


The numbers are where I notice stability losses.
I can also off my head give you all the average voltages for these clock frequencies. And rough guesstimate of wattage as well.
With a grain of salt for ambient temp variations and such.

 

[AusWolf]

Because I didn't engineer it. So I'm stuck buying it. First.
Second, I wanted the higher binned P cores. And you buy higher end chips for that. So I started with a 13600KF. Was pretty fast, but won't reach the same clocks as the 13700K.

So I've purchased more than one cpu. Cause I can. So I can experience more than one. And for testing. I also have 3 LGA 1700 motherboards.

Because for you (maybe, I don't really know) you only need 1 processor and enjoy gaming and other stuff.

The difference is, I'm here talking about Raptor Lake and my experiences and you are talking about how my experiences are a waste of money.

I'm a PC hobbiest. An enthusiast of overclocking and tweaking.

I also like RC cars, model rockets and car stereo modifications, welding and fabrication.

I've even smelted down aluminum and poured my own Dry Ice pots.

Nice to meet you.

Point taken, welcome to the "I spend more money on my PC than I need to or what is generally considered sensible" club.

Next forge some weapons we want over 9000 layers of Damascus get smelting **** needs to be legendary quality.

I'd love that!

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Point taken, welcome to the "I spend more money on my PC than I need to or what is generally considered sensible" club.


I'd love that!

Plural, PC with an S at the end. I have several.

 

[phill]

Wow that was a thread and a half to get through... All I can think about is that Meme of the Dark Knight films and the Joker in it saying everyone loosing their minds type thing..... Can fill in the blanks there I think....

As long as the performance is what you want, does it matter about the wattage it uses?? I mean I have various systems/setups/whatever you wish to call them same as @ShrimpBrime but when you are doing specific tasks, each one can be tailored to get the best out of what you have for the use case your using it for. Doesn't matter about what as such I don't think....

I mean that said, right now I'm doing what I need to on a Intel 10500T, I could use my 5950X or my Threadripper or even my SR-2 build to do the same thing, but why would I when the 10500T consumes so much less power... Hell its displaying a 2D image, I'd be able to run it on a potato I guess....

We buy hardware, we tweak it, we use it, we should enjoy it. Shouldn't need to be a debate of what's better or worse. Its not life threatening that I'm aware of if you use a little more power than your neighbour... At least I don't think it is??!

 

[InVasMani]

Just needs more v-core.

I've observed the following.
All Cores.
5.5ghz will go 100c
5.6ghz will go 90c
Disabled E-cores here.
5.7ghz will go 90c
5.9ghz will go 89c
6.0ghz 85c
6.1ghz 80c
P-core reduction
6.2ghz 79c
6.7ghz -30c


The numbers are where I notice stability losses.
I can also off my head give you all the average voltages for these clock frequencies. And rough guesstimate of wattage as well.
With a grain of salt for ambient temp variations and such.

It could be the power limits for PL1/PL2 that I set getting in the way I tried like 1.4v on CPU vid and it would still instant freeze. I don't think it's the temps with my AIO 240 push/pull and icy ambient temps currently. It's well below those temps listed. It'll set 6GHz it just won't valid at 6GHz unfortunately or not on win11 and with Asus AI bloatware running maybe if I had set and closed that immediately after it would've helped for stability since their lighting software is like CPU utilization malware.

I was just curious if I could get it to go or not honestly. I don't think I'd even aim for more than like 5.7 or 5.8 if I could get it stable with the added volts it seemed to require. I'd rather try to get the E-core ratio stable at something more like x45 or x46 all core even if I have to drop all P-core ratio down to more like 5.4 or possibly as low as 5.2. The amount of MT uplift you get out of E-cores on a 14700K is quite a bit from bumping up ratio by x1.

 

[RandallFlagg]

This is pretty accurate. You paid for it, do what you want with it. Don't worry about what these guys say. You're not dumb for turning off and on features. That's why the adjustments are supplied in the bios.

Those kind of people make me think they buy a car, leave it completely stock and use it to its full potential every key cycle. Also, they don't tint the windows, leave the spare tire in the car, won't modify the stereo for sub woofers and think everyone should be like them.

Know what I say?? Fuck em.



I've cooled more processors with every single cooling type, including and not limited to Peltier. Worry about yourself thanks.

It's a funny thing. As a car enthusiast, going to a forum on cars it's full of people modding and upgrading their rides. Truck people with their 30" tires, car people with their exhaust systems and tunes. Sometimes, people even mod to get better MPG, or talk about hyper-miling. They can peacefully co-exist with those trying to get a better 0-60 or be able to 4-wheel up a sheer rock face in Utah. Any bashers immediately get beat down, so it's rare.

Long time ago, these tech sites used to be the same. Not any more. Now every time someone mods their PC rig, whether for performance or efficiency, there's always a band of self-righteous toxic people whose only input is 'why would you want to do that?' or 'you bought the wrong brand'. I think you can pretty much track the fall of tech enthusiast sites - which were much more active and informative 20 years ago than they are today - to the emergence of these joy killing toxic Karens.

 

[Toothless]

Its not, for the sake, you turn on the PC, hit del after 1 sec UEFI shows up, short cut to "HT off preset" - save - restart on PCIe NVMe 8 sec later you are good to go with HT off with 5-20% more fps (min/max/avg) for your own pesronal preference. Why? Because you paid the $$$ for it.

Its not dumb at all, it is just an individual use / show case.

Or.. hear me out and the other 20+ people that agree..

buy an i5

 

[Gica]

And I have a reserve of extra gaming power. If you can show me what else I could ever need in a gaming PC, I'll be happy to consider it.

It is debatable. The 5800X3D, last year's gaming king at over $400, is now on par with the 7600X@$200 at 720p at 4K, with the most powerful card of the moment (see TPU review at 14900K).
You can't talk about longevity in this field. You buy a "king" and in a very short time he turns into the king's jester.

 

[Toothless]

It is debatable. The 5800X3D, last year's gaming king at over $400, is now on par with the 7600X@$200 at 720p at 4K, with the most powerful card of the moment (see TPU review at 14900K).
You can't talk about longevity in this field. You buy a "king" and in a very short time he turns into the king's jester.

720p or 4k? Never seen a monitor 720p at 4k.

Also.. at 4k it's not really a battle between any chip when they're all GPU limited. 5800x3D is just a fantastic value with the current pricing.

 

[Gica]

Sorry to cut in here.

77w And the score is 10k low. I demonstrated an all core 4000mhz at 120w with the same score.

Can you fill me in what happened, was that a tuned all core run or something?

IccMax limitation.
By limiting the amount of current to a K processor (completely unlocked leads to a huge waste of electricity), the driver will treat it as a non-K processor.
Light tasks will not be affected because there is enough power for them. The heavy loads will be solved by the driver (via W11) by balancing P+E cores to fit within the allocated amperage limit and obtain the maximum possible performance. You don't have to beat your head with billions of settings, anyway you will be below the performance obtained by the driver. Thanks to those E-cores, blamed by many, the 14700K@~80W crushes the 7800X(3D) in all CPU-intensive tasks.

720p or 4k? Never seen a monitor 720p at 4k.

Also.. at 4k it's not really a battle between any chip when they're all GPU limited. 5800x3D is just a fantastic value with the current pricing.

720p, 1080p, 1440p and 4K. It is good like this?

You got the review wrong. I don't see the new processors in that capture.
See below where the 5800X3D is now

 

[Toothless]

IccMax limitation.
By limiting the amount of current to a K processor (completely unlocked leads to a huge waste of electricity), the driver will treat it as a non-K processor.
Light tasks will not be affected because there is enough power for them. The heavy loads will be solved by the driver (via W11) by balancing P+E cores to fit within the allocated amperage limit and obtain the maximum possible performance. You don't have to beat your head with billions of settings, anyway you will be below the performance obtained by the driver. Thanks to those E-cores, blamed by many, the 14700K@~80W crushes the 7800X(3D) in all CPU-intensive tasks.


720p, 1080p, 1440p and 4K. It is good like this?

You got the review wrong. I don't see the new processors in that capture.
See below where the 5800X3D is now

View attachment 326393View attachment 326394

eeeeehhhhhhh different cards were used in the reviews. That's why the 5800x3D is behind in the newer ones.