Windows 11 General Discussion

[_JP_]

Got me grubby mitts on it.

View attachment 348751

This is how Windows 11 should've been from the beginning. The only preinstalled crapware is Edge, and it doesn't require a Microsoft account to install.

I might actually use this.

Are you emulating TPM for it to run or were you able to run it past TPM checks?

 

[windwhirl]

Hackers waiting and be like:

Mhm. Personally, only way I'd use Recall is if the machine is permanently offline, never connecting to the Internet for anything.

 

[P4-630]

Mhm. Personally, only way I'd use Recall is if the machine is permanently offline, never connecting to the Internet for anything.

Butt Micro$oft just wants you to use the internet!! They even force you when installing windows...
You need it! You know you can't without it..

 

[sam_86314]

Are you emulating TPM for it to run or were you able to run it past TPM checks?

LTSC doesn't have any checks like that. It even let's you use a local account.

 

[R-T-B]

Good ol' Paul Thurrott is still carrying water for Recall. He thinks that this researcher "needs to find a new line of work" and that Recall is a secure feature. I know the guy has made a living off this stuff, but some days I don't get his position on things. I used to frequent his (ad-riddled, memory-hogging) site more often, but it's like one minute he can see things clearly, then the next he's taking the controversial position like he's running a talk show. I dunno, from what I read of that link, even if that guy is only half right, it's still a feature that places a TON of risk directly on the user.

I'm a security guy by trade and I don't see how Paul could defend an unencrypted sqlite database knowing everything you do literally just sitting there in AppData.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I'm a security guy by trade and I don't see how Paul could defend an unencrypted sqlite database knowing everything you do literally just sitting there in AppData.

He wrote an article that is calling on MS to refute these claims and the doom and gloom, and is wondering why they aren’t. Maybe there’s a reason they haven’t—it’s because they can’t?
It’s hard to put 100% confidence in any company’s security claims. The approach, IMO, is how do you secure the most secure things in case something goes wrong. Recall just seems ripe for the pickings in a bad situation. Once that data is accessed, the damage potential is very high, and all because someone wanted to remember what they were doing 2 weeks ago? Is this really a problem a lot of people have that isn’t already solved somehow?

 

[R-T-B]

He wrote an article that is calling on MS to refute these claims and the doom and gloom, and is wondering why they aren’t. Maybe there’s a reason they haven’t—it’s because they can’t?

They literally claim bitlocker default securing the drive is enough... it's not. I don't know what more he expects them to say. It's engineered this way, it's not going to change easily.

Got me grubby mitts on it.

View attachment 348751

This is how Windows 11 should've been from the beginning. The only preinstalled crapware is Edge, and it doesn't require a Microsoft account to install.

I might actually use this.

I may be requesting this from my enterprise agreement. Tired of bullshit filtering for MS for my coworkers.

EDIT: Requested, and attained. Trialing now.

 

[windwhirl]

Windows won’t take screenshots of everything you do after all — unless you opt in

Microsoft promises changes to Recall after security concerns.

www.theverge.com

Recall will be opt-in, and ship disabled by default, plus some extra security measures have been taken.

I still don't like it. It shouldn't even exist to begin with, and if anyone wants this, they should take the time to go to the Microsoft Store or whatever and install it themselves.

In other news, the fake email account bypass trick won't work anymore and you'll need the OOBE command to bypass the Microsoft Account requirement.

Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local accounts

Many users use an e-mail trick to avoid creating a Microsoft account. This has now apparently been stopped by Microsoft.

www.pcworld.com

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Windows won’t take screenshots of everything you do after all — unless you opt in

Microsoft promises changes to Recall after security concerns.

www.theverge.com

Recall will be opt-in, and ship disabled by default, plus some extra security measures have been taken.

I still don't like it. It shouldn't even exist to begin with, and if anyone wants this, they should take the time to go to the Microsoft Store or whatever and install it themselves.

In other news, the fake email account bypass trick won't work anymore and you'll need the OOBE command to bypass the Microsoft Account requirement.

Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local accounts

Many users use an e-mail trick to avoid creating a Microsoft account. This has now apparently been stopped by Microsoft.

www.pcworld.com

Can you still try to make a local account by either not connecting to a network OOBE or use the CMD line hack?

Also, my concern with any MS feature that is opt-out is that it might eventually not allow it. For example, you can chose not to use Edge, but you cant uninstall it without considerable effort, and MS claims Edge is necessary for W11 to function. I know Recall isn’t a web browser, but could the same eventually happen here? I also don’t really trust MS that when I opt-out, that the service is fully disabled.

 

[cvaldes]

Also, my concern with any MS feature that is opt-out is that it might eventually not allow it. For example, you can chose not to use Edge, but you cant uninstall it without considerable effort, and MS claims Edge is necessary for W11 to function. I know Recall isn’t a web browser, but could the same eventually happen here? I also don’t really trust MS that when I opt-out, that the service is fully disabled.

I think it is wise to be skeptical about Microsoft's interest in doing the right thing for consumers based on their decades-old track record for doing the opposite.

Hell, they should have known from the start that there would be a LOT of skepticism about Recall and made sure the opt-in was blatantly advertised from the get go. They did not which is so typical of this company.

For many years I have been running Windows debloat utilities to remove a number of sundry "features" from the operating system: remove bloatware, disable telemetry, disable some services, delete Cortana, delete OneDrive, etc. Every time I install a fresh copy of Windows, I spend 45-60 minutes removing crap; I spend like 3-5 minutes on a new macOS installation.

Undoubtedly the day Microsoft releases Recall to the general public, there will be some debloat tool that will entirely remove it from your system.

 

[P4-630]

Windows won’t take screenshots of everything you do after all — unless you opt in​

Microsoft promises changes to Recall after security concerns.

Update on the Recall preview feature for Copilot+ PCs

Update Oct. 31, 2024: We are committed to delivering a secure and trusted experience with Recall. We recently shared updates to the security and privacy architecture for Recall in a

blogs.windows.com

First, we are updating the set-up experience of Copilot+ PCs to give people a clearer choice to opt-in to saving snapshots using Recall. If you don’t proactively choose to turn it on, it will be off by default.

Second, Windows Hello enrollment is required to enable Recall. In addition, proof of presence is also required to view your timeline and search in Recall.

Third, we are adding additional layers of data protection including “just in time” decryption protected by Windows Hello Enhanced Sign-in Security (ESS) so Recall snapshots will only be decrypted and accessible when the user authenticates. In addition, we encrypted the search index database.

 

[cvaldes]

Update on the Recall preview feature for Copilot+ PCs

Update Oct. 31, 2024: We are committed to delivering a secure and trusted experience with Recall. We recently shared updates to the security and privacy architecture for Recall in a

blogs.windows.com

First, we are updating the set-up experience of Copilot+ PCs to give people a clearer choice to opt-in to saving snapshots using Recall. If you don’t proactively choose to turn it on, it will be off by default.

Second, Windows Hello enrollment is required to enable Recall. In addition, proof of presence is also required to view your timeline and search in Recall.

Third, we are adding additional layers of data protection including “just in time” decryption protected by Windows Hello Enhanced Sign-in Security (ESS) so Recall snapshots will only be decrypted and accessible when the user authenticates. In addition, we encrypted the search index database.

See? This is all basic sh!t that should have been an integral part of Recall from the planning phase, not an afterthought after widespread public criticism.

"Gee, someone thinks that the unencrypted search database is a security flaw? Why? OK, we're listening to the explanations. We see. Hmmm, we'll get back to you in a few days... [two days later] OK, we discussed it and yes, we will encrypt the search database."

It is amateur hour over at Microsoft AI Software Engineering. A lot of these demands are extremely basic and not something you need to be a security expert at.

The problem with these sort of F-ups is the loss of trust. If Microsoft can't get this basic sh!t right, how can anyone on earth trust them to properly handle sensitive personal information? It's almost like A.) they don't give a sh!t, B.) they are clowns, or C.) they are both.

They aren't some startup taking their first dip into the operating system waters. They should know this stuff. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the default login credentials for the SQLite database (like scott/tiger).

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

See? This is all basic sh!t that should have been an integral part of Recall from the planning phase, not an afterthought after widespread public criticism.

"Gee, someone thinks that the unencrypted search database is a security flaw? Why? OK, we're listening to the explanations. We see. Hmmm, we'll get back to you in a few days... [two days later] OK, we discussed it and yes, we will encrypt the search database."

It is amateur hour over at Microsoft AI Software Engineering. A lot of these demands are extremely basic and not something you need to be a security expert at.

The problem with these sort of F-ups is the loss of trust. If Microsoft can't get this basic sh!t right, how can anyone on earth trust them to properly handle sensitive personal information? It's almost like A.) they don't give a sh!t, B.) they are clowns, or C.) they are both.

They aren't some startup taking their first dip into the operating system waters. They should know this stuff.

Yeah, MS is the king of “release it now, let the users tell you want’s wrong and then fix it later (maybe).” That’s basically what Windows has turned into, where the consumer is the QA and Security police.

 

[InVasMani]

Option D) Both plus they feel like throwing ads in our faces.

 

[cvaldes]

Yeah, MS is the king of “release it now, let the users tell you want’s wrong and then fix it later (maybe).” That’s basically what Windows has turned into, where the consumer is the QA and Security police.

Many people online (including some people here) love to talk smack about Apple but at least those guys put some thought into this stuff BEFORE releasing it.

The problem with doing it the 2024 Microsoft Way is that it squanders trust and goodwill.

In fact, they have repeatedly done this so many times they have basically thrown away their entire consumer presence (with the exception of Xbox which is floundering badly).

Basically everything Microsoft sets out to do in their consumer efforts is WRONG. They might have the right initial intentions but all of their decision making ends up being wrong for the consumer marketplace.

The AI Era is approaching and Microsoft is going to end up being the forlorn IT department for Enterprise AI. Five years from now Microsoft AI Engineering will just be a bunch of guys wearing Azure polo shirts reading Dell & Nvidia manuals, plugging boards into sockets, and stringing up networking cables in some datacenter based in Boondocks County, USA.

 

[R-T-B]

See? This is all basic sh!t that should have been an integral part of Recall from the planning phase, not an afterthought after widespread public criticism.

"Gee, someone thinks that the unencrypted search database is a security flaw? Why? OK, we're listening to the explanations. We see. Hmmm, we'll get back to you in a few days... [two days later] OK, we discussed it and yes, we will encrypt the search database."

It is amateur hour over at Microsoft AI Software Engineering. A lot of these demands are extremely basic and not something you need to be a security expert at.

The problem with these sort of F-ups is the loss of trust. If Microsoft can't get this basic sh!t right, how can anyone on earth trust them to properly handle sensitive personal information? It's almost like A.) they don't give a sh!t, B.) they are clowns, or C.) they are both.

They aren't some startup taking their first dip into the operating system waters. They should know this stuff. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the default login credentials for the SQLite database (like scott/tiger).

Yes, it certainly does not inspire confidence.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Many people online (including some people here) love to talk smack about Apple but at least those guys put some thought into this stuff BEFORE releasing it.

The problem with doing it the 2024 Microsoft Way is that it squanders trust and goodwill.

In fact, they have repeatedly done this so many times they have basically thrown away their entire consumer presence (with the exception of Xbox which is floundering badly).

Basically everything Microsoft sets out to do in their consumer efforts is WRONG. They might have the right initial intentions but all of their decision making ends up being wrong for the consumer marketplace.

The AI Era is approaching and Microsoft is going to end up being the forlorn IT department for Enterprise AI. Five years from now Microsoft AI Engineering will just be a bunch of guys wearing Azure polo shirts reading Dell & Nvidia manuals, plugging boards into sockets, and stringing up networking cables in some datacenter based in Boondocks County, USA.

Yeah, Apple is typically late to the party, but they usually come out with something well laid out. I personally don’t care to be at the edge of technology anymore. There are too many companies having the users be the beta testers. It’s true in hardware as much as software, all the way down to GPU 12V connectors. That’s one thing that made Apples jump to ARM so impressive, as you really didn’t give up much to gain a lot in return. It’s taken MS a lot of attempts to do the same, and it still remains to be seen if Snapdragon X is going to be well-received. MS completely bungling one of the exclusive launch features might have sunk whatever excitement it did have going for it. I mean, I heard local radio jocks talking about how concerned they were about Recall.

 

[cvaldes]

Yeah, Apple is typically late to the party, but they usually come out with something well laid out. I personally don’t care to be at the edge of technology anymore. There are too many companies having the users be the beta testers. It’s true in hardware as much as software, all the way down to GPU 12V connectors. That’s one thing that made Apples jump to ARM so impressive, as you really didn’t give up much to gain a lot in return. It’s taken MS a lot of attempts to do the same, and it still remains to be seen if Snapdragon X is going to be well-received. MS completely bungling one of the exclusive launch features might have sunk whatever excitement it did have going for it. I mean, I heard local radio jocks talking about how concerned they were about Recall.

Apple has their own reasons for the timing of their feature rollouts. As you say, they are often late to the party but certainly not exclusively so.

I'm not convinced that in ten years time Windows on Arm will be such a revolutionary moment.

The big reason is that the world of computing has changed. Smartphones are the primary computing modality for consumers in 2024. When Apple launched the iPhone is 2007, Steve Jobs famously described it as "the computer for the rest of us." He was prescient yet spot on.

Five years later in 2013 Apple had their hardware mic drop moment when they announced the Apple A7, the first 64-bit SoC to be deployed in a consumer phone, the iPhone 5s. The rest of the semiconductor industry was speechless and dumbfounded. It was evident to many pundits that the possibility of an Arm processor in a Mac was conceivable.

Today smartphones drive major advances in consumer technology not PCs. And not just CPUs. Display technology, battery technology, user interface, biometric identification, camera modules, photo/video post-processing, OCR, and more. Everyone walking on the street use wireless earbuds in 2024, no one uses wires.

Microsoft -- by the bungling of two CEOs (Ballmer and Nadella) -- no longer have a physical presence in mobile.

All of the great success Apple has enjoyed with M-series SoCs in their Macs was laid out by 15+ years of iPhone and iOS engineering. Apple thinks of itself as primarily a software company whose software (and services) run best on their proprietary hardware. So while Apple books most of their revenue from hardware sales, in their hearts they are software people.

Their features are typically well thought out from a software perspective, they would never consider this half-baked Copilot+ Recall approach.

Still it's good to see Microsoft make a go at it. AI is already being welcomed with open arms by Fortune 100 companies, some of them have embraced it for nearly a decade. Eventually useful consumer-focused features of generative AI will make it to the consumer marketplace but as always, the initial rollouts are squarely biased towards programmers and forward-thinking enterprise customers.

My guess is that next week's Apple WWDC will appear to be underwhelming to many and some people online (including a few here) will point and jeer at Apple. It's not a race, there is no finish line.

Apple has a long history of holding sensitive things close before eventually letting others get access. They did this with geolocation APIs, Apple Pay APIs. There are probably doing the same with Spatial Computing APIs and they will definitely do it with GenAI APIs. They will keep the most sensitive APIs for their own exclusive use before they allow third-party developers access to these, maybe in 2025, maybe later.

Being early out of the gate with a thoughtless offering is not a great way to nurture trust and confidence, either in your developer partners, your big enterprise customers, or Joe Consumer.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Apple has their own reasons for the timing of their feature rollouts. As you say, they are often late to the party but certainly not exclusively so.

I'm not convinced that in ten years time Windows on Arm will be such a revolutionary moment.

The big reason is that the world of computing has changed. Smartphones are the primary computing modality for consumers in 2024. When Apple launched the iPhone is 2007, Steve Jobs famously described it as "the computer for the rest of us." He was prescient yet spot on.

Five years later in 2013 Apple had their hardware mic drop moment when they announced the Apple A7, the first 64-bit SoC to be deployed in a consumer phone, the iPhone 5s. The rest of the semiconductor industry was speechless and dumbfounded. It was evident to many pundits that the possibility of an Arm processor in a Mac was conceivable.

Today smartphones drive major advances in consumer technology not PCs. And not just CPUs. Display technology, battery technology, user interface, biometric identification, camera modules, photo/video post-processing, OCR, and more. Everyone walking on the street use wireless earbuds in 2024, no one uses wires.

Microsoft -- by the bungling of two CEOs (Ballmer and Nadella) -- no longer have a physical presence in mobile.

All of the great success Apple has enjoyed with M-series SoCs in their Macs was laid out by 15+ years of iPhone and iOS engineering. Apple thinks of itself as primarily a software company whose software (and services) run best on their proprietary hardware. So while Apple books most of their revenue from hardware sales, in their hearts they are software people.

Their features are typically well thought out from a software perspective, they would never consider this half-baked Copilot+ Recall approach.

Still it's good to see Microsoft make a go at it. AI is already being welcomed with open arms by Fortune 100 companies, some of them have embraced it for nearly a decade. Eventually useful consumer-focused features of generative AI will make it to the consumer marketplace but as always, the initial rollouts are squarely biased towards programmers and forward-thinking enterprise customers.

My guess is that next week's Apple WWDC will appear to be underwhelming to many and some people online (including a few here) will point and jeer at Apple. It's not a race, there is no finish line.

Apple has a long history of holding sensitive things close before eventually letting others get access. They did this with geolocation APIs, Apple Pay APIs. There are probably doing the same with Spatial Computing APIs and they will definitely do it with GenAI APIs. They will keep the most sensitive APIs for their own exclusive use before they allow third-party developers access to these, maybe in 2025, maybe later.

Being early out of the gate with a thoughtless offering is not a great way to nurture trust and confidence, either in your developer partners, your big enterprise customers, or Joe Consumer.

No argument about MS completely bungling their mobile efforts. I was a Windows Phone die hard. I loved the Lumia phones, and I thought MS was on to something with the tiles, where it made sense on mobile. The Lumia 950 was the last hope, and it was a nice device with a great camera, but W10M was terrible. There'd be times you'd pick it up and it would be white hot, I guess because of some runaway process. Battery life was terrible. It was a shame, because they had a decent vision, just horrid execution.

 

[londiste]

See? This is all basic sh!t that should have been an integral part of Recall from the planning phase, not an afterthought after widespread public criticism.

Recall isn't out yet, is it? It is in preview and Insider builds can play around with it. This is quite clearly in some prerelease stage.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Recall isn't out yet, is it? It is in preview and Insider builds can play around with it. This is quite clearly in some prerelease stage.

I think the problem is MS's current approach to launching new software has severely tarnished Recall. They made it part of a bigger announcement, and one of the key new features of these "AI PCs." Before it's even out of preview, it has gotten a LOT of bad press. Some of that is because they didn't actually make the so-called hardware requirements real requirements, so people have been getting it to run on unqualified PCs and started shooting holes in it. Some of it is MS not actually following their own encryption promises, from what I gather. MS has already had to backtrack and do damage control before it has even launched. Even if they do get it secured, the damage might already be done.

 

[jarablue]

I guess corp customers wants this to watch remote employees. Regular customers sure as heck don't. Nice to see who they cater to.

If I can't disable or opt out of using it, I will ditch win11 completely. I literally do not want this junk on my pc.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I guess corp customers wants this to watch remote employees. Regular customers sure as heck don't. Nice to see who they cater to.

If I can't disable or opt out of using it, I will ditch win11 completely. I literally do not want this junk on my pc.

I get the feeling a lot of telemetry in W10 was for corporate "monitoring" of employees. For example, I started getting automated emails about "who I collaborated with most" at least a couple years ago. I turned off that useless email, as MS was sending them at 5AM in the morning. Even if I'm not getting that notification, there's no doubt that MS collects much data on corporate users and feeds that back to the hatchet man. MS probably used all that data for their recent rounds of internal "house cleaning." It certainly makes me think twice about anything I say or do on the work PC, and I was already pretty reserved.

 

[londiste]

I get the feeling a lot of telemetry in W10 was for corporate "monitoring" of employees.

I do not see that being the case. Information gathering in Windows itself is in large part just the telemetry for Microsoft.
If there is a corp customer there are other, better tools to monitor/spy on work machines.

 

[Ivan Bliminse]

Installed win11 >>> don't like it !