Why doesn't every house have solar installed?

[Space Lynx]

Solar panels installed in France in 1992 found to retain a remarkable 79% of original output

In 1992, a small 1-kilowatt solar array called Phébus 1 was connected to the French grid by Hespul, a nonprofit renewable energy association based in Lyon, France....

www.techspot.com

According to this article here, even after 31 years solar panels retain 79% of their charge, and I can only assume that has even improved since then. As a supplemented measure of electricity, feeding the grid, it makes so much sense. Even in the United Kingdom when driving around I was surprised by how so many houses had solar panels, for such a cloudy country. Take for example the midwest in the USA though, true its cloudy most of winter, but when is electricity needed most? In the summer months when air conditioners are cranked, and the sun is damn near 24/7 in the summer months. If solar panels were feeding into the grid it would take so much relief off customers bills in the summer and not strain the system at peak times.

I would need to see some strong evidence that 31-40+ years of a single solar panels benefits are outweighed by the carbon damage it causes to make it... I find that really really hard to believe. Hell, imagine if we had spent 7 trillion Covid money on building a giant solar panel making factory in Nevada where the sun never stops shining, and solar panels ended up powering the factory over time (this is not far fetched, many factories in Nevada run on solar power only already). We could have literally solved climate change fast, solved the EV charging overloading the grid problem fast (although I still believe cars like Aptera with 1000 mile range and 40 miles of charging per day from the sun will change the world for a lot of people in certain sunny regions anyway), and the list goes on and on.

 

[ty_ger]

One big hurdle is regulations.

If you want solar, you need to draw up plans, get a building permit, get an electrical permit, and get approval from your power company. You need UL certified devices with certified protections, and then the electrical company replaces your meter, does tests, and approves it. It takes months and it isn't a sure thing.

Don't want to do that? Tough! They can turn off your power.

You can do it yourself. I did. But often people end up giving up and just paying someone else. Then only big installations are cost-effective and the cost balloons like crazy.

If USA is going to have more homeowners install solar, they are going to have to relax regulations for small solar generators like Germany's balcony solar rules.

I installed just a small 1kW because it was cheap and effective for $2000ish. I only wanted to put a dent in my usage, not go all crazy and expensive.
I got a couple other estimates. Contractors would not install less than 4kW, and the price was around $16000, if I remember correctly.

 

[stinger608]

Yeah, I have a set for my travel trailer that are about 4 years old, and still doing amazing.

Wouldn't go without them!!!!!!

 

[Chrispy_]

With modern heatpump heating/cooling for homes, LED lighting, and the rising popularity of low-power mobile devices as the primary means of entertainment and information, you actually don't need much solar panel per person in the warmer seasons where heating water can be done directly with solar water heaters.

In the winter, you kind of need to rely on the grid - shorter daylight with the sun lower in the sky, coupled with lower temperatures that require people to use far more power heating their home and water.

 

[Space Lynx]

One big hurdle is regulations.

If you want solar, you need to draw up plans, get a building permit, get an electrical permit, and get approval from your power company. You need UL certified devices with certified protections, and then the electrical company replaces your meter, does tests, and approves it. It takes months and it isn't a sure thing.

Don't want to do that? Tough! They can turn off your power.

You can do it yourself. I did. But often people end up giving up and just paying someone else. Then only big installations are cost-effective and the cost balloons like crazy.

If USA is going to have more homeowners install solar, they are going to have to relax regulations for small solar generators like Germany's balcony solar rules.

Yeah, some states in the USA do it better than others that is for sure. The ones that don't will actively kneecap it as long as they can to make sure their profits stay hi. To be clear I am not very hopeful we will see meaningful change on these matters, at least in some states. It really needs to come from the top down, we need a proactive leadership to actually talk about these kinds of things, but that will never happen either, they love distracting us with nonsense, instead of things that will actually improve our lives.

I hope other countries however approach solar panels in a more open way, I am pretty sure the EU is and the UK mostly.

With modern heatpump heating/cooling for homes, LED lighting, and the rising popularity of low-power mobile devices as the primary means of entertainment and information, you actually don't need much solar panel per person in the warmer seasons where heating water can be done directly with solar water heaters.

In the winter, you kind of need to rely on the grid - shorter daylight with the sun lower in the sky, coupled with lower temperatures that require people to use far more power heating their home and water.

YES YES YES! exactly, thank you for posting this, we truly live in a moment time where vast majority of people could actually get by with almost no electricity for actual personal use, its really quite amazing how far we have come. I would add to that list, even air conditioners. I know it sounds silly, but I have done research recently on modern air conditioners and they are sooo damn efficient these days, the newest models. It's really amazing.

We need again a top down solution though, such as heat pumps, we need to really advertise this to young people considering going to community colleges, etc. There needs to be money put in it, maybe free community college for people willing to major in in-demand fields? Then we create a list for people to pick from. That would be very well spent money as far as progressing ones civilization goes anyway.

 

[JWNoctis]

Beyond the regulatory labyrinth, I understand that distributed solar panel setups currently can have problem feeding back power into the grid - which I think is what much of the regulation and certification is about, by allowing the grid operator to reliably turn them off if they would otherwise overload the grid - during peak sunny hours, though that should be changing for the better.

No reason not to maybe allow some kind of simpler small-scale setup to at least offset base loads like refrigerator and maybe HVAC as long as you have a roof (i.e. not living in an apartment) though. One kWh from local solar is more than one kWh less from something else, accounting for grid losses.

 

[Space Lynx]

Beyond the regulatory labyrinth, I understand that distributed solar panel setups currently can have problem feeding back power into the grid - which I think is what much of the regulation and certification is about, by allowing the grid operator to reliably turn them off if they would otherwise overload the grid - during peak sunny hours, though that should be changing for the better.

No reason not to maybe allow some kind of simpler small-scale setup to at least offset base loads like refrigerator and maybe HVAC as long as you have a roof (i.e. not living in an apartment) though. One kWh from local solar is more than one kWh less from something else, accounting for grid losses.

The famous youtuber marqee brownee puts his electricity back into the grid and doesn't seem to have a problem at all in the state of Delaware I think he mentions in the video. I am not saying you are wrong, most states probably are ass backwards in this regard.

Also, utility companies exist for us as citizens, they aren't supposed to be rich aristocratic institutions with fat salaries, which a lot of them are because they only hire their friends and family, at least where I am from. lol

He says at the very beginning he has not paid for electricity in a year. He plays games, has a EV car, etc. So, it's kind of impressive really.

 

[DaemonForce]

but when is electricity needed most? In the summer months when air conditioners are cranked, and the sun is damn near 24/7 in the summer months.

I used to play around with an idea like this tumbling around in my head and opted to use TECs in an experiment that's basically a solar powered chiller. I used to spend a lot of time on the road and it turns out there are portable refrigerator products that address the problem of keeping perishable items cold when you're a bit like me and tend to hoard everything for long trips. It sounds so dumb but it's so cool. Dumb inventions lead to ideas for really good ones so we definitely need way more of this. I definitely don't want to return to making solar panels though. That is legitimately a death walk.

 

[Mister300]

Professional scientist here, solar is not efficient and subject to physical damage. Remember the grid in PR was demolished by a hurricane.
Plus here in Texas a insurance company will deny you coverage since the install damages the roof. (They claim).
Plus the power utilities do not like competition and play games when it comes to reducing your bill. Similar to the fight between legal weed and alcohol industries.

 

[Frick]

Professional scientist here, solar is not efficient and subject to physical damage.

I'm not sure what to make of this.

Yeah it's a good idea and it's a good thing they're getting cheaper. What we need in northern Sweden is long term storage, in the summer (when power use is down) they are producing 24/7 and in the winter (when power use is high) nothing at all.

BTW added is a picture of those huge solar farms in china, taken from an airplane.

 

[Space Lynx]

I definitely don't want to return to making solar panels though. That is legitimately a death walk.

What do you mean by this? Like physically making them is hard?

Professional scientist here, solar is not efficient and subject to physical damage. Remember the grid in PR was demolished by a hurricane.
Plus here in Texas a insurance company will deny you coverage since the install damages the roof. (They claim).
Plus the power utilities do not like competition and play games when it comes to reducing your bill. Similar to the fight between legal weed and alcohol industries.

I am not saying solar should be for all electricity.. to be very clear, I mean a few panels on your house roof probably would go a long way to helping the entire system.

Humans not playing nice in Texas? Nothing new there, but don't worry they will keep screaming secession, but then beg us for federal tax payer dollars when a big event happens like they always do. If your goal is to make me cynical on the possible positives of this, you will not win, I assure you, I am well aware we are a failed species, I just like having positive thoughts sometimes so I don't go insane.

This is one of those weird sentences, isn't it?

Yeah it's a good idea and it's a good thing they're getting cheaper. What we need in northern Sweden is long term storage, in the summer (when power use is down) they are producing 24/7 and in the winter (when power use is high) nothing at all.

Yep, and there is nothing at all wrong with that, we should embrace hybrid systems, Bill Gates started building his new nuclear reactor in Wyoming last week too, and I think that is also really important. I hope it goes well, because diversity in the power grid is so important, which is what this thread is really all about.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Are we able to resolve the horrible efficiency and extreme pollution caused by solar manufacturing, _while_ not only keeping prices low, but reducing them over time? Only then could I agree with you. Solar and EVs share the same problem: they may be zero emissions, but they both have an extreme pollutant problem at the manufacturing level. Neither solve any actual problem, it just shifts them elsewhere.

Presently, there's no economic incentive and no technology to achieve this.

 

[Space Lynx]

Are we able to resolve the horrible efficiency and extreme pollution caused by solar manufacturing? Only then could I agree with you. Solar and EVs share the same problem: they may be zero emissions, but they both have an extreme pollutant problem at the manufacturing level. Neither solve any actual problem, it just shifts them elsewhere.

People always say this, but I have never actually researched it. Is it something people say? Or has anyone actually shown you the evidence of how much it pollutes vs say a toy factory in China? I would need to compare it to other industries, we continue to manufacture wasteful items all the time and no one says oh, its terrible for the environment, all the carbon it takes to make those Lego's (just as an example).

I would need to see a clear to understand detailed report on the evidence of what it takes to to make solar panels and compare it to something frivolous that we also do as a species, and go from there. 31+ years is a hell of a long benefit period.

 

[Steevo]

Storage for peak demand is the biggest hurdle. Nuclear base load then put solar on car parks and other large structures, homes that require cooling down south would get the benefit of reduced heat load and electricity saving. Peak load for daily AC and car charging.

 

[Dr. Dro]

People always say this, but I have never actually researched it. Is it something people say? Or has anyone actually shown you the evidence of how much it pollutes vs say a toy factory in China? I would need to compare it to other industries, we continue to manufacture wasteful items all the time and no one says oh, its terrible for the environment, all the carbon it takes to make those Lego's (just as an example).

I would need to see a clear to understand detailed report on the evidence of what it takes to to make solar panels and compare it to something frivolous that we also do as a species, and go from there. 31+ years is a hell of a long benefit period.

No, it's true, look up the chemicals and heavy metals that are necessary for solar panel manufacturing, horrifyingly pollutant. Also, there's the price concern. A solar installation might as well cost more than a lifetime of energy bills to many families. This in turn will require solar energy systems to be subsidized by the government and each new generation must be cheaper to manufacture, it's really not as simple as it sounds.

There's also other auxiliary power generations options on the table although they are still further out or at the proof of concept stage, such as miniaturized nuclear that could be used to locally boost the capacity of the power grid, that would be cleaner and with much lower maintenance. Nuclear power's concern is almost always the toxic radioactive waste, there's no way to dispose of it other than special landfills designed for this purpose, as the material will remain lethal for a probably longer time than mankind has left on the planet.

 

[Steevo]

Are we able to resolve the horrible efficiency and extreme pollution caused by solar manufacturing, _while_ not only keeping prices low, but reducing them over time? Only then could I agree with you. Solar and EVs share the same problem: they may be zero emissions, but they both have an extreme pollutant problem at the manufacturing level. Neither solve any actual problem, it just shifts them elsewhere.

Presently, there's no economic incentive and no technology to achieve this.

It’s true, it’s a “not in my backyard” issue. When the Denver/front range needed more power natural gas turbines were installed out on the plains and it caused haze

No, it's true, look up the chemicals and heavy metals that are necessary for solar panel manufacturing, horrifyingly pollutant. Also, there's the price concern. A solar installation might as well cost more than a lifetime of energy bills to many families. This in turn will require solar energy systems to be subsidized by the government and each new generation must be cheaper to manufacture, it's really not as simple as it sounds.

There's also other auxiliary power generations options on the table although they are still further out or at the proof of concept stage, such as miniaturized nuclear that could be used to locally boost the capacity of the power grid, that would be cleaner and with much lower maintenance. Nuclear power's concern is almost always the toxic radioactive waste, there's no way to dispose of it other than special landfills designed for this purpose, as the material will remain lethal for a probably longer time than mankind has left on the planet.

Breeder reactors can use waste, and their final byproducts are much safer, plus we can make plutonium for deep space missions

 

[Dr. Dro]

It’s true, it’s a “not in my backyard” issue. When the Denver/front range needed more power natural gas turbines were installed out on the plains and it caused haze

Breeder reactors can use waste, and their final byproducts are much safer, plus we can make plutonium for deep space missions

It becomes an even worse once you consider the modern housing reality. Due to property prices, most people have been living their entire lives unable to afford a home of their own - and they struggle to pay rent as it is. Landlords are simply not going to be installing such expensive systems to the benefit of others if they are not compensated by it, if I make $800 a month on rent in a property and the solar system is $35K to install, that's 44 months to break even, ~4 years round accounting for income taxes levied. Families who own property and have a good foothold are a smaller slice of the market these days, and the only to which a solar installation currently could make sense, and that's depending on how expensive energy is in the given region, in general, it will still come off as a long-term investment on your property that will carry little weight to its market value.

Breeder reactors are good stuff, hopefully, the technology will advance enough to make self-contained miniaturized reactors a possibility.

 

[wolf]

I have them on my house, 6.6kw of panels, 5kw inverter. I spent over an hour a few months ago running the numbers extensively and it has paid for itself in less than 3 years since installation in 2019.

My only regret is not doing it sooner.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

They require it out here in California on all new construction usually you have to buy or lease it but I used my incentive on it. My Builder had 40k incentives that you could use on solar and closing.

A 5KW systemt is around 22k out here a 7.5 is 30K...

Plus the government gives you back 35% as long as you pay enough federal tax to cover the rebate.

 

[N/A]

Unless it rotates with the sun like a sunflower you're not getting paid off. Ever. I'd like to see a more sincere evaluation. At least most people in cities and multi storey buildings can't benefit more than a few hours.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I have them on my house, 6.6kw of panels, 5kw inverter. I spent over an hour a few months ago running the numbers extensively and it has paid for itself in less than 3 years since installation in 2019.

My only regret is not doing it sooner.

Nem 3 really screwed us out in California if I had purchased mine out of pocket it would take 8-10 years to break even. If you dont factor in tax credits which not everyone makes enough to take full advantage of.

Unless it rotates with the sun like a sunflower you're not getting paid off. Ever. I'd like to see a more sincere evaluation. At least most people in cities and multi storey buildings can't benefit more than a few hours.

It saves me $150-200 a month with closer to 100 in the winter and 300 in the summer.

So probably 2000 year +/- 10% so around a 8-10 year roi the thing is electricity is getting more expensive yearly so the system becomes more valuable as it ages average cost per KW has almost doubled in California in the the last decade.

If you factor in the 7000 tax credit I got probably 6-7 year ROI but that's assuming I paid for my system it was technically free as I used one of my new home incentives on it.

 

[wolf]

Price talk in the US seems absolutely crazy to me, my system was on the cheaper side, but was $2,795 AUD in 2019, with higher end going for $4-6k at the time, up to the skies the limit of you want to go crazy big, but 6.6/5kw (panels/inverter as you're allowed to oversize panels relative to inverter by 33%) is the max size you can put on residential properties and still get a tariff for feeding in power to the grid. $20k++ USD seems absolutely bonkers to me.

 

[Steevo]

Nem 3 really screwed us out in California if I had purchased mine out of pocket it would take 8-10 years to break even. If you dont factor in tax credits which not everyone makes enough to take full advantage of.



It saves me $150-200 a month with closer to 100 in the winter and 300 in the summer.

So probably 2000 year +/- 10% so around a 8-10 year roi the thing is electricity is getting more expensive yearly so the system becomes more valuable as it ages average cost per KW has almost doubled in California in the the last decade.

If you factor in the 7000 tax credit I got probably 6-7 year ROI but that's assuming I paid for my system it was technically free as I used one of my new home incentives on it.

The tax credit was others investment, I’m not attacking you at all, I write off all the energy saving measures I have been upgrading our home with.

Nuclear base load is the only viable option we have.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Because it's stupid.

If you want a more complex answer then maybe ask a more complex question.



I'll take a crack at a more complex answer now....so that I'm at least a little fair.
1) The Midwest has this thing called hail. It has feet of snow. The reason that wood and shingles are common materials is that they are very durable and can take massive temperature changes without issues...while also taking impact energy over almost that entire range. Copper and glass plates usually not so much.
2) The 1kilowatt is the maximum that array can output....but the math there sucks. You're looking at 1000 watts for a part of each sunny day....or on average probably about 1/3 to 1/4 that. 1/2 day lost due to night. The rest lost due to non-optimal angles and coverage. Yay....your average 333 watt platform only lost 21% of its capacity...or 60 watts rounded way down. Holy crap...that sucks. No lightbulb in the bathroom for you anymore.
3) The fact that you generate it, then need storage to meter it out, is not accounted for in costing. Let's say it's only every 3 years to replace batteries, and only uses 4 car batteries. 2024-1992 = 32 years. (32/3)*4 = 44 batteries replaced. At the average cost of about $80 that'd be $3520. That is pure cost...so be prepared for that to go up over time. Remember, lead acid is cheap but is using both sulfuric acid and lead.
4) "Modern stuff is more efficient" is a stupid non-starter. Let me be clear here...I work in manufacturing. Calculated failure dates, and planned obsolescence, is a thing. Nothing quite like a solar array bolted onto a house that requires tooling and hardware to be replaced after a decade to make you appreciate the 90's for them still building things to last...and that's almost a punchline to a joke there.

So...no. Solar is stupid for most home owners. It's costly, complex, and it breaks even only if you can get somebody else to pay for it (subsidies and tax credits). So we are clear, even then the "best" spots for solar might not be great for solar panels. If you want to go down the rabbit hole of real workable solar check out the plans for a molten salt reactor in the desert...which is truly something I could get behind as both energy storage and energy creation. That said, every few years the solar insanity comes back and demonstrates why green guilt is still a thing. That doesn't make it any smarter of an idea to slap solar panels where they don't belong.

 

[FoulOnWhite]

In the UK imo all new builds should have solar panels as standard. I know it is not the sunniest place but i'm sure there must be some pretty good panels out there by now.