Intel Statement on 13th and 14th Gen Core Instability: Faulty Microcode Causes Excessive Voltages, Fix Out Soon

[fevgatos]

I got a beta Bios a week after Zen 3 release for my MSI B350 board. Think i'm still on it as it goes as if it's not broke don't fix it. My sons got it now. Working fine with no problems. I do know other boards took quite a while to get updates.

So you seem quite a principled guy and this Intel situation is not ethically challenging for you. It's okay to effect other people as long as you're okay?

Groucho Marx:

These Are My Principles. If You Don’t Like Them I Have Others.​

I don't see anything unethical here. They **cked up, happens to every company. Every single one. Unethical would be them trying to ruin your cpu on purpose, which is not what happened.

Tired of you changing the goal posts . You are the one who claimed AMD did the same thing. They did not. 3D cache chips where a different animal. Because of the cache overlaying the core, overvolting the cache resulted in some shorts through the vertical layer. TOTALLY different than Intel overclocking the whole chip to compete, Get real man.

Indeed, amd immolating themselves and your motherboard is fine, intel crashing to desktop is bad. Gotcha.

 

[Daven]

I got a beta Bios a week after Zen 3 release for my MSI B350 board. Think i'm still on it as it goes as if it's not broke don't fix it. My sons got it now. Working fine with no problems. I do know other boards took quite a while to get updates.

So you seem quite a principled guy and this Intel situation is not ethically challenging for you. It's okay to effect other people as long as you're okay?

Groucho Marx:

These Are My Principles. If You Don’t Like Them I Have Others.​

The grand majority of us here understand how badly Intel is behaving. TPU is awesome for reporting on bad company behavior regardless of the source. And given TPU website polling and the switch to AMD chips by numerous game tournament and other service-related companies, many individuals and entities are taking notice of recent Intel failings. A few brand loyalists aside, the general response to this bad behavior is reassuring and I hope will help change the corporate culture at Intel.

By the way, Arrow Lake is a telling product that Intel is changing its ways. The chip is being made wholly on TSMC processes which are far better. The chip is being clocked down and buggy parts such as HT are being stripped out. I hope Intel continues to clean up its products so that it can make good on its claims that their chips are stable and high quality. This was not the case with Raptor Lake. The release of discrete graphics products with numerous day 0 driver bugs was also very disappointing.

 

[fevgatos]

In competition, every seller sells the best, that's competion, but in true competition only winner has, the best. Also 120w 7800x3d Vs. 400w is 4x less the best comparing to watts.

Needless to say that a 13900k at 120w is way faster than the 7800x 3d at 120w. One is a playmobile and the other a workstation, please keep this fanboy stuff out of this thread.

 

[pavle]

Even if it is just a re-calibrated microcode that's missing the processors have been running at an over-voltage for quite a while now, I wonder if material is still the same/good (semiconductor and connections).

 

[Daven]

I don't see anything unethical here. They **cked up, happens to every company.

Except for AMD. The BIOS thing you mentioned was intentional to maliciously hurt their customers right?

Needless to say that a 13900k at 120w is way faster than the 7800x 3d at 120w. One is a playmobile and the other a workstation, please keep this fanboy stuff out of this thread.

Oh and please stop policing thread content. That's for the moderators to decide.

 

[Hecate91]

Off topic man, can we stay on topic?

Short answer and let's not spend 50 pages arguing, the whole treatment we got with x370 / b350 / x470 mobos, not giving bios support for zen 3, then deciding to take it back, then waiting 2 years to release proper bios was absolutely horrible. Especially considering we were first adopters buying cpus that weren't really ready for release just to support the company.

You brought it up in the first place, don't play that game.

The bios updates weren't AMD's fault, that was a motherboard maker fault because they decided to go cheap on UEFI chips, and literally didn't have enough room to store the extra AGESA code required for Zen 3.

I don't see anything unethical here. They **cked up, happens to every company. Every single one. Unethical would be them trying to ruin your cpu on purpose, which is not what happened.


Indeed, amd immolating themselves and your motherboard is fine, intel crashing to desktop is bad. Gotcha.

The part in bold is EXACTLY what Intel did, Intel decided to push their high end parts as hard as they could just to claim higher benchmark scores.
What AMD did has nothing to do with this, they took the blame for Asus and a few other motherboard makers setting voltages too high and offered everyone affected with a damaged or degraded CPU a full RMA, meanwhile Intel is trying to convince everyone a microcode update will fix everything and hasn't said anything regarding cpu's that have already been degraded needing replacement.

 

[Verpal]

I imagine price of used 13/14th gen still gonna suffer even if this is a full fix, since many chip have suffered from accelerated degradation, even if not to the point of unstable at stock.

 

[eidairaman1]

They are all related.... Ohm's Law. As you increase voltage and resistance stays the same, amperage (current) goes up. Too much voltage will definitely kill chips and produce more heat in the process. Ahhh the smell of a burning chip and the magic smoke that follows upon death.

And to boot corrosion does cause resistance

 

[john_]

if intel wants to delay cpu's failing until they are out of warranty then that is even more concerning

In this case it will be a repeat of Nvidia's bumpgate where 8000 and 9000 series GPUs where eventually going to fail because of bad soldering of the GPU. Nvidia's fix back then was a new fan profile, pushing fan to remain spinning at higher speeds, to at least secure that GPUs will start failing after the warranty period.

As with Intel today, Nvidia also didn't had to face hostile press and consumers, so nothing really happened to them. No recalls, or huge fines/refunds to pay. The same will happen with Intel now. While press and consumers are criticizing Intel, it's more like scolding a child that did a mistake.
All will be forgiven/forgotten in 6-12 months from now.

 

[RGAFL]

By the way, Arrow Lake is a telling product that Intel is changing its ways. The chip is being made wholly on TSMC processes which are far better. The chip is being clocked down and buggy parts such as HT are being stripped out. I hope Intel continues to clean up its products so that it can make good on its claims that their chips are stable and high quality. This was not the case with Raptor Lake. The release of discrete graphics products with numerous day 0 driver bugs was also very disappointing.

It's quite telling that AMD have no trouble with HT and AVX-512 but the company who started them are having trouble. My how the tables have turned.

AMD, taking Intels junk and making it gold.

 

[john_]

Nvidia Bumpgate ~2008. Permanently ruined their relationship with Apple. Nvidia blamed TSMC for it.

But not with consumers. Consumers, even after bumpgate was out, where still focusing on laughing at AMD. Because even back then Nvidia was the premium brand and we never REALLY blame the premium brand.

 

[Vincero]

In this case it will be a repeat of Nvidia's bumpgate where 8000 and 9000 series GPUs where eventually going to fail because of bad soldering of the GPU. Nvidia's fix back then was a new fan profile, pushing fan to remain spinning at higher speeds, to at least secure that GPUs will start failing after the warranty period.

As with Intel today, Nvidia also didn't had to face hostile press and consumers, so nothing really happened to them. No recalls, or huge fines/refunds to pay. The same will happen with Intel now. While press and consumers are criticizing Intel, it's more like scolding a child that did a mistake.
All will be forgiven/forgotten in 6-12 months from now.

Difference being nvidia (then) didn't really sell direct to consumers (no FE cards, etc.) - any issues with a product was the product OEM problem, which nvidia then took the hit for - even the Quadro cards technically were manufactured by some OEM (PNY I think).
Intel don't have that luxury - the Dell's/HP's/IBM's will have to manage end-user warranty issues (maybe) for their products, but Intel will not be able to shirk direct buyer warranty claims

 

[Daven]

It's quite telling that AMD have no trouble with HT and AVX-512 but the company who started them are having trouble. My how the tables have turned.

AMD, taking Intels junk and making it gold.

What's even worse is that Intel released Raptor Lake...TWICE!!!

Once shame on me. Twice shame on you Intel.

 

[john_]

Difference being nvidia (then) didn't really sell direct to consumers (no FE cards, etc.) - any issues with a product was the product OEM problem, which nvidia then took the hit for - even the Quadro cards technically were manufactured by some OEM (PNY I think).
Intel don't have that luxury - the Dell's/HP's/IBM's will have to manage end-user warranty issues (maybe) for their products, but Intel will not be able to shirk direct buyer warranty claims

You do have a point in the first paragraph, but was there just one manufacturer of Nvidia graphics cards? If it was, OK. But if there where two or more, they where probably following Nvidia's guidelines.
In the second paragraph you contradict a little. When we are talking about Dell/HP/IBM/Any OEM, it doesn't really matter if the hardware problem is the CPU or another component, or even the software. They will have to deal with that problem themselves because companies like Dell not only sell PCs, they also sell their reputation of on site warranty.

 

[Klemc]

Needless to say that a 13900k at 120w is way faster than the 7800x 3d at 120w. One is a playmobile and the other a workstation, please keep this fanboy stuff out of this thread.

YOU fanboy, i just written an exemple i'm talking about competition, don't try to be grating idm, it's not play/fan here. Just an exemple, and no, nobody goes in BIOS to set a CPU power limit except geeks, that's what i'm when i open a TPU page i become a geek that knows about BIOS thingies that shouldn't even exist in the first place, except needed options tho...

 

[Vincero]

What's even worse is that Intel released Raptor Lake...TWICE!!!

Once shame on me. Twice shame on you Intel.

13th Gen..... Unlucky for some....

 

[RGAFL]

Typical Intel, took another company (AMD) to clean up HT and AVX-512 among other things. Will take TSMC to make their chips to show them how it's done properly.

 

[fevgatos]

Except for AMD. The BIOS thing you mentioned was intentional to maliciously hurt their customers right?

Yes, obviously. Do you think they accidentally said that they are not going to support zen 3 on x370

 

[Vincero]

You do have a point in the first paragraph, but was there just one manufacturer of Nvidia graphics cards? If it was, OK. But if there where two or more, they where probably following Nvidia's guidelines.
In the second paragraph you contradict a little. When we are talking about Dell/HP/IBM/Any OEM, it doesn't really matter if the hardware problem is the CPU or another component, or even the software. They will have to deal with that problem themselves because companies like Dell not only sell PCs, they also sell their reputation of on site warranty.

I can see how it would appear contradictory but my reasoning is this gives Intel some buffer / headroom.
If a PC/laptop with a (what is fairly standard these days) one year warranty fails within the warranty period then the OEM will need to fix it and will charge back to Intel / get the replacement part from Intel. Outside of this period though.... relying on good will.
Business customers will probably have better warranty terms generally but normal personal customers usually need to elect for a longer warranty package.
If you buy a CPU at retail and it has a 3/5 year warranty for example, then you're in a better position by default and can go direct to Intel.

 

[Vincero]

Yes, obviously. Do you think they accidentally said that they are not going to support zen 3 on x370

To be fair AMD actually said they wouldn't because the size of the AGESA to accomodate wouldn't fit most motherboard BIOS chips. They were pretty up front about that very early on - and I can see why they went with the 'not possible' approach initially... flashing a BIOS and then needing to power off and replace CPU and hope it all works after is 'not ideal'.
They then left it to the motherboard makers to release BIOS update with either old or new CPU support which fit in the Mbit capacity limit.

Now, I'm not saying they definitely wouldn't, but historically Intel would probably not be that helpful - decision would be made, end of.... unless you can show me an official Intel 100 series chipset board running a Coffee Lake CPU....

 

[fevgatos]

To be fair AMD actually said they wouldn't because the size of the AGESA to accomodate wouldn't fit most motherboard BIOS chips. They were pretty up front about that very early on.
They then left it to the motherboard makers to release BIOS update with either old or new CPU support which fit in the Mbit capacity limit.

Now, I'm not saying they definitely wouldn't, but historically Intel would probably not be that helpful - decision would be made, end of.... unless you can show me an official Intel 100 series chipset board running a Coffee Lake CPU....

The size of the agesa had noting to do with it. Proof? The fact that after the outcry mobos got support, it took 2 years but it happened. Did the bios chips get bigger in the meanwhile.

Come on, let's not try to sugarcoat it.

 

[Vincero]

The size of the agesa had noting to do with it. Proof? The fact that after the outcry mobos got support, it took 2 years but it happened. Did the bios chips get bigger in the meanwhile.

Come on, let's not try to sugarcoat it.

But it happened... meanwhile where is that 1st gen LGA 1151 board running last gen 1151 CPU (unmodded)??

 

[RGAFL]

Fevgatos at this moment.

 

[Klemc]

Fevgatos at this moment.

View attachment 356091

He dropped his gun ?

 

[Evrsr]

So how is that W series and other locked chipsets also killing these CPUs

There are reports even Supermicro boards are pushing voltages to very unsafe levels. Well, reading Intel's report it would be the CPU that is requesting them.