Intel Statement on 13th and 14th Gen Core Instability: Faulty Microcode Causes Excessive Voltages, Fix Out Soon

[mxthunder]

As someone who tuned the V/F curve of my 13900KF from day one, I dont really want any microcode updates pushed on me.
I wont be updating my BIOS that is for sure. My chip has been stable since day 1 and still is. Luckily, even being a n3wb to 13th gen at the time, I noticed crazy vcore happening as soon as I installed windows and began to benchmark and check the behavior of the system. I then went down a 2 week rabbit hole of undervolting and checking for stability.

 

[Klemc]

As someone who tuned the V/F curve of my 13900KF from day one, I dont really want any microcode updates pushed on me.
I wont be updating my BIOS that is for sure. My chip has been stable since day 1 and still is. Luckily, even being a n3wb to 13th gen at the time, I noticed crazy vcore happening as soon as I installed windows and began to benchmark and check the behavior of the system. I then went down a 2 week rabbit hole of undervolting and checking for stability.

That means you worked free for Intel for two weeks.

A question, is the microcode a BIOS or MEI thing ?.. i can also imagine update will be forced by OS update(s)...

 

[phanbuey]

Here is how I see this.

1. AMD and Intel are embroiled in a War for users.
2. Intel could not just create a new socket and expect that users would pay for that after AM4.
3. The 12th Gen chip was safe.
4. When the 13th and 14th gen were released they were highly tuned chips from the same generation.

We started hearing about Intel issues from some Tech tubers like Tech Yes City when his 11th Gen chip was faster than his 13th gen chip. Then we had a real issue and Nvidia was quick to blame Intel. There was an update released that lowered the voltage and performance to the point where Reviewers started giving you results with and without the power limits removed. Then Wendell did his video and the flood gates opened. People that try to use AMD as a shield are not looking at the reality of this.

Now Intel have promised a chip with no E cores and no HT. I wonder if that one will support AVX 512.

This battle has been summarily lost by Intel. Let's hope they learn, just be glad the traditional Media is not fully aware of this yet. One thing it has really done is expose the Techtubers that are fanboys with their AMD is failing too videos. It is like how some people use the X3D chips to complain about AMD's heat. As Wattage is the biggest thing that leads to heat. These Intel chips seem to have too much wattage for the package size. I have seen theories like the substrate in construction of the chip but they just turned them up too high. I wonder if that chip that is just cores will be TSMC?

What I found curious about Tech Yes City, is that his 10th gen (he used a 10850K for his work) was snappier than his 13900k - but he ended up going back to that 10th gen intel chip for his work... which is a bit odd, but I know a few people that are still on 10th gen because of the latency of alder/raptor/amd (or so it is claimed).

Intel is definitely in the pain throws, but their general direction is at least pointing towards progress -- there's definitely less marketing boasting and misdirection than there normally is.

As someone who tuned the V/F curve of my 13900KF from day one, I dont really want any microcode updates pushed on me.
I wont be updating my BIOS that is for sure. My chip has been stable since day 1 and still is. Luckily, even being a n3wb to 13th gen at the time, I noticed crazy vcore happening as soon as I installed windows and began to benchmark and check the behavior of the system. I then went down a 2 week rabbit hole of undervolting and checking for stability.

Same here - I looked at why the temps were so high and saw Hwinfo report 1.48v on a 13700KF -- 1.48v for 5.4Ghz...

 

[evernessince]

Intel admitted there was oxidization in 2023 with early raptor lake but didn't bring it up then, it seems like Intel wants to postpone the issue, if intel wants to delay cpu's failing until they are out of warranty then that is even more concerning.

Something doesn't line up here. Intel claims that the oxidation was a separate issue that was root caused and fixed awhile back but no one, not even those in the enthusiast community were made aware. On top of that Raptor lake was released all the way back in October of 2022. It's 2024 now

The first thing I'm gathering from this hidden little press release on a forum is that Intel knew about an issue for what is almost 2 years and did nothing to make customers aware of it and did nothing to notify potentially impacted individuals.

This before you consider that they claim current issues are the result of a micro-code bug and that Laptops are having a separate issue as well. So at the very minimum, according to Intel's own words, there are at least 3 issues running amok right now.

I'll repeat what I put in the forms in regards to questions for Intel to address this situation:

How will Intel remedy customers for the potential damaged caused by the all 3 claimed issues?
Will there be an outreach campaign to notify all customers potentially affected?
Given the permanent damage these issues cause, who qualifies for a replacement / refund? (as in everyone or just those who can demonstrate they are having issues)
What are the product level implication for the fix to these issues (where applicable)? Specifically, how will it impact performance and processor behavior?
What is Intel's proposed solution to it's crashing issue on laptops given Intel has itself claimed that laptops are crashing due to other reasons at an elevated rate? (Intel's press release made it appear to me they were pointing fingers elsewhere again with this one)

I absolutely do not trust Intel with the way this has evolved, particularly because they've now admitted they root caused an oxidation issue awhile back at raptor lake launch and made zero effort to tell customers who received CPUs with oxidation issues.

I'm waiting for the GN analysis on this although at this point given Intel is claiming multiple issues it might be prohibitively expensive for them to send multiple CPUs to a failure analysis lab to fully verify Intel's claims.

 

[Onyx Turbine]

i keep my order intact of the 13100 and dont alter it, i expect customer satisfaction management in case it goes wrong with my tiny 4 pitter

 

[Assimilator]

That means you worked free for Intel for two weeks.

A question, is the microcode a BIOS or MEI thing ?

BIOS and OS; the former provides the "default" microcode and the latter can override it.

 

[Vincero]

But they never promised support bud. Do you get the difference?

I get your point... But Intel have messed up planned updates in the past... LGA 1150 became a bit of a mess... I really thought they wouldn't repeat it with 1151....

 

[Onyx Turbine]

Something doesn't line up here. Intel claims that the oxidation was a separate issue that was root caused and fixed awhile back but no one, not even those in the enthusiast community were made aware. On top of that Raptor lake was released all the way back in October of 2022. It's 2024 now

The first thing I'm gathering from this hidden little press release on a forum is that Intel knew about an issue for what is almost 2 years and did nothing to make customers aware of it and did nothing to notify potentially impacted individuals.

This before you consider that they claim current issues are the result of a micro-code bug and that Laptops are having a separate issue as well. So at the very minimum, according to Intel's own words, there are at least 3 issues running amok right now.

I'll repeat what I put in the forms in regards to questions for Intel to address this situation:

How will Intel remedy customers for the potential damaged caused by the all 3 claimed issues?
Will there be an outreach campaign to notify all customers potentially affected?
Given the permanent damage these issues cause, who qualifies for a replacement / refund? (as in everyone or just those who can demonstrate they are having issues)
What are the product level implication for the fix to these issues (where applicable)? Specifically, how will it impact performance and processor behavior?
What is Intel's proposed solution to it's crashing issue on laptops given Intel has itself claimed that laptops are crashing due to other reasons at an elevated rate? (Intel's press release made it appear to me they were pointing fingers elsewhere again with this one)

I absolutely do not trust Intel with the way this has evolved, particularly because they've now admitted they root caused an oxidation issue awhile back at raptor lake launch and made zero effort to tell customers who received CPUs with oxidation issues.

I'm waiting for the GN analysis on this although at this point given Intel is claiming multiple issues it might be prohibitively expensive for them to send multiple CPUs to a failure analysis lab to fully verify Intel's claims.

As i understood correctly does the microcode issue not affect lower cored cpus of 13.14 line but the oxidation issue affects all cpus of raptor as such a 13100?

 

[Solaris17]

I can sit here and do this all day folks.

 

[the54thvoid]

I can sit here and do this all day folks.

Two bouncers on this door.

 

[Vincero]

Intel inteligently failed over long usage time.

Here the implication is the chip itself is calling for the failure mode voltage regardless of what the motherboard is thinking.

 

[pressing on]

Can anyone express their view on what they think a 13100 is affected? just ordered one and it will be used for gaming, not necessarily overclocking..

The i3 13100 is based on Alder Lake technology and is not affected. This CPU cannot be overclocked. I don't know what motherboard you are planning to put it in but there may be BIOS options to allow all cores to run at maximum speed which is 4.50 GHz.

 

[Onyx Turbine]

The i3 13100 is based on Alder Lake technology and is not affected. This CPU cannot be overclocked. I don't know what motherboard you are planning to put it in but there may be BIOS options to allow all cores to run at maximum speed which is 4.50 GHz.

ASRock B760M-ITX/D4​

 

[Vincero]

i keep my order intact of the 13100 and dont alter it, i expect customer satisfaction management in case it goes wrong with my tiny 4 pitter

The 13100 is a re-brand of the 12100 with fiddled clockspeeds. It **shouldn't** suffer the same issues with regards to the problems listed by the community / game developers....
Can't guarantee some other wider defect may not become known.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Intel is desperately trying to make this go away but it's not going to, and the more they try to bury it the worse it's gonna be. I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC gets involved now that GN has publicised this problem. Even if they don't, you can bet there will be a class-action lawsuit.


This, exactly this. "Let's clock our CPUs to the bleeding edge to squeeze out a few more points in a benchmark because we are intellectually bankrupt and incapable of building an actually good product" is by far the most stupid race to the bottom that I've yet seen in my 25+ years of PC hardware experience, and I've seen a lot of stupidity. I'm glad it backfired on AMD and I'm glad it's backfiring on Intel, because it seems that getting hit in the wallet is the only way these companies will learn to not do stupid shit like this. BUILD. BETTER. PRODUCTS.

Considering it's still in warranty window idk why there'd be a lawsuit unless they deny a bunch of warranty claims.
I find GN to be kinda annoying in these topics, almost sensational really, they may have found some problem with oxidation but they don't know more than intel themselves. Intel also said it wasn't related and was already addressed so really the GN reaction was a bit sensational.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

The degradation is seemingly being sped up due to the amount of voltage of the i9 and i7. The whole range has that issue so it's a wait and see at the moment.

i keep my order intact of the 13100 and dont alter it, i expect customer satisfaction management in case it goes wrong with my tiny 4 pitter

13100 is H0 stepping silicon. Exactly the same as a 12100, other than slightly increased default clocks.

 

[Klemc]

The 13100 is a re-brand of the 12100 with fiddled clockspeeds. It **shouldn't** suffer the same issues with regards to the problems listed by the community / game developers....
Can't guarantee some other wider defect may not become known.

Yes that's true, CPU suffer and Intel is culprist of mistreatment

 

[RGAFL]

As i understood correctly does the microcode issue not affect lower cored cpus of 13.14 line but the oxidation issue affects all cpus of raptor as such a 13100?

I would say the 13100 would be safe for a while. The 13100 does not need the voltages of the higher end Intel CPUS so should last out for a bit. I think it depends on how long you plan to keep it. If a year or two then should be fine. More than that I would personally get a 12th gen or wait it out and get something new.

 

[Klemc]

I would say the 13100 would be safe for a while. The 13100 does not need the voltages of the higher end Intel CPUS so should last out for a bit. I think it depends on how long you plan to keep it. If a year or two then should be fine. More than that I would personally get a 12th gen or wait it out and get something new.

But he will plug the CPU brand new "after" microcode update, so ?

 

[Vincero]

Considering it's still in warranty window idk why there'd be a lawsuit unless they deny a bunch of warranty claims.
I find GN to be kinda annoying in these topics, almost sensational really, they may have found some problem with oxidation but they don't know more than intel themselves. Intel also said it wasn't related and was already addressed so really the GN reaction was a bit sensational.

Semi-agree... I wouldn't offer a particular "this is what we're looking for" approach - I'd mention it as a possibility.... to be honest I'd be more interested if the failure analysis manage to find some other production level or rapid aging type of failure such as damaged / burnt out interconnects or maybe breakdown of the materials within the chip silicon.

 

[Onyx Turbine]

The 13100 is a re-brand of the 12100 with fiddled clockspeeds. It **shouldn't** suffer the same issues with regards to the problems listed by the community / game developers....
Can't guarantee some other wider defect may not become known.

ok thank you all, its interesting my intuition i had a 13700f measured its power draw and passed the info to dell during one of their surveys of my product experience or what not it was (cpu was part of a desktop cpu) that in my opinion it was a very fluctuating power draw with high spikes even in idle, as such took the 13100 as i had a great long term experience with a 3770.

some multicore above 4 like e.g. 6 benchmarks are misleading btw. as for gamers they logically give a cpu a much higher rating in multicore score but not necessary a better gaming increase uplift in terms of fps. the 13100 still can go to 110 watt tdp with only 4 cores!

therefore the 13100 i deem as a closure of the 4 core era for intel. why not the 14100 you ask me, this because it has a ridiculous high idle power draw in idle.

 

[HD64G]

IF Intel is sincere in that only the higher than it should voltage kills or degrades their high-end CPUs and the reason is a faulty microcode that exists for over 2 years now mean 2 thinks:
1) Their incompetency to find and fix that in the first few months show indifference to quality (big-) , or
2) Their desperation to win some benchmarks vs AMD CPUs made them totally unscropulous towards their customers to give them expensive CPUs that will detonate themselves sooner than ever.
I wonder now that all know that only Intel is responsible for this fiasco, will they recall those CPUs as they should do? My guess is they will offer some compensation to the owners to lame them switch to their upcoming platform for less money. And I bet anyone that there will be more than enough to accept that and advertise this "kind" act of Intel...

 

[RGAFL]

13100 is H0 stepping silicon. Exactly the same as a 12100, other than slightly increased default clocks.

That's true. Forgot about that. Then he's good to go. Unless there is other changes. I'd still go 12th gen and get a higher core count if possible but if he has the 13100 already then should be hunky dory.

 

[Klemc]

IF Intel is sincere in that only the higher than it should voltage kills or degrades their high-end CPUs and the reason is a faulty microcode that exists for over 2 years now mean 2 thinks:
1) Their incompetency to find and fix that in the first few months show indifference to quality (big-) , or
2) Their desperation to win some benchmarks vs AMD CPUs made them totally unscropulous towards their customers to give them expensive CPUs that will detonate themselves sooner than ever.
I wonder now that all know that only Intel is responsible for this fiasco, will they recall those CPUs as they should do? My guess is they will offer some compensation to the owners to lame them switch to their upcoming platform for less money. And I bet anyone that there will be more than enough to accept that and advertise this "kind" act of Intel...

If they loose money on that, they will do all possible to grab back on next gen, yes.

 

[Vincero]

ok thank you all, its interesting my intuition i had a 13700f measured its power draw and reported it to dell that in my opinion it was a very fluctuating power draw with high spikes even in idle, as such took the 13100 as i had a great long term experience with a 3770.

some multicore above 4 like e.g. 6 benchmarks are misleading btw. as for gamers they logically give a cpu a much higher rating in multicore score but not necessary a better gaming increase uplift in terms of fps. the 13100 still can go to 110 watt tdp with only 4 cores!

therefore the 13100 i deem as a closure of the 4 core era for intel. why not the 14100 you ask me, this because it has a ridiculous high idle power draw in idle.

I assume that the 13100 is still using the same die as the Alder Lake 'H0' die chips.... so in theory you can find <=12600 (non-K) 6-cores (which aren't harvested from C0 dies) and lower which are using the exact same silicon. Can't say for sure about 14100 but seeing as it's same die size it also probably same.