RAM optimisation (DDR4)

[chrcoluk]

Ok, so I'm still using DDR4 but with a quite nice ram modules (I think): it's G.SKILL F4-4000C16-16GTZR (2x16GB, Samsung B-die).

I managed to run them @3600MHz with timings 14-14-14-34, Gear 1, CR 2T (tried 1T and failed). With current settings they're 100% stable.

Now , I was just wondering - is there any space for improvement here? I'm not an expert but if there's something I could easily change in Bios and make them run even better then why not? This system is used for gaming only.

Any valuable input would be highly appreciated

If its B die I think you could tighten TRFC.

 

[Zach_01]

Samsung B-Die's love voltage, when I have my AM4 setup I daily 3800MT's at cl14 1T @1.5v GDM OFF, on a Z690 Strix D4 I used from a buddy of mine, that same kit did 4266mhz CL15 1T @1.57v.

edit: your kit might not be a Samsung B Die, best to check using Taiphoon burner and read the dimm data using that software, from its default timings it may look like a Samsung C or D Die, normally B Die's have flat timings like CL 16-16-16-36, my GSkill kit Trident Z Neo F4-4000c16D-GTZN is a B-Die kit, it has 16-16-16-36 Timing setup.

Yes B-Die ICs love voltage to do high frequency and low latencies but they also love their temps. At some point they need active cooling up on them to maintain <45C at load.

Are you talking about these below in red box?


Here is my B-die kit (F4-3600C16-16GTZN)
Exactly the same table


This is from AMD AM4 system, just for reference (not to be copied for Intel based system)


If I run 14-14-14-14 then
I would set tRAS: 28 (14+14) and tRC: 42 (28+14)
And if its not stable then
I would set tRAS: 30 (14+14+2) and tRC: 46 (30+14+2)

Is the above calculation valid for Intel system?

Also tRFC can run really low on B-Die. Below 300 is walk in the park.
For under 250 and closer to 200 needs voltage, but be aware of temps (<45C on load)

I can also see tRRDS, tRRDL and tFAW that can be improved
OP has them 7, 10, 38 respectively.
At least he can drop tFAW only to 28 (tRRDS x4)
or do as @Taraquin suggested 4, 6, 16
It can be done with 1.4V

 

[lepudruk]

edit: your kit might not be a Samsung B Die, best to check using Taiphoon burner and read the dimm data using that software, from its default timings it may look like a Samsung C or D Die, normally B Die's have flat timings like CL 16-16-16-36, my GSkill kit Trident Z Neo F4-4000c16D-GTZN is a B-Die kit, it has 16-16-16-36 Timing setup.

Guys, please.. I may be a noobie but I'm not an idiot, if I say it's B-die then I mean it. Thaiphoon Burner info in attachment below.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Guys, please.. I may be a noobie but I'm not an idiot, if I say it's B-die then I mean it. Thaiphoon Burner info in attachment below.

Some B-Die are better than others and some odd kits are not listed on the B-Die Finder page.

If this was my build, and it's for gaming... I'd be trying for higher frequency. 4400mhz should be a breeze. A little work for 4600mhz. At these speeds, the latency difference won't be enough to cry about. Intel on DDR5 is like 5-10% performance increase off the bat. (FYI / FFT)

 

[agent_x007]

I don't have these programs and was unable to find a valid download source of them (for instance Asus is no longer hosting those files).

EDIT : Insert full image of your file "asus_tweak (2).png" in your post below this one.

 

[lepudruk]

@agent_x007 Cool, thanks! Screenshots in attachment below (didn't know which tab you need so I've captured all 4).

Edit: screenshot #2 as requested

 

[agent_x007]

This IS NOT stable 100% for me, however I wanted to show it so that you get an idea of what you have to change :

^2x 16GB B-die, don't worry about memory frequency, that's just how Z490 Dark and 11900k are

 

[Speedyblupi]

edit: your kit might not be a Samsung B Die, best to check using Taiphoon burner and read the dimm data using that software, from its default timings it may look like a Samsung C or D Die, normally B Die's have flat timings like CL 16-16-16-36

That can't possibly be right. Having flat timings usually means that the RAM is B-die, but this doesn't imply that not having flat timings means the RAM isn't B-die. The majority of XMP DDR4 kits with RCD and RP matching their CL are Samsung-B-die, but the majority of Samsung B-die kits still have higher RCD and RP than CL. It's a lower majority than for other DDR4 chips, but still definitely a majority. C-die and D-die don't work with latency timings as low as 14-14-14-34 at DDR4-3600.

This is 99%+ a Samsung B-die kit (Thaiphoon does occasionally misidentify chips, so it's not 100%), but if it's not Samsung B-die, it's an unusually good kit of either Micron 16Gb Rev B (getting dual-rank 16GB modules using 16Gb chips requires a weird config with half of the RAM disabled, but there are a few kits with 16Gb Rev B that do that. 8Gb Rev B chips are much weaker) or Rev E, or Hynix CJR or DJR. But if you have DDR4 that runs at 3600 CL14-14-14-34, you'd be insane to bet against it being B-die unless you have a specific reason to think it's something else.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

This IS NOT stable 100% for me, however I wanted to show it so that you get an idea of what you have to change :
View attachment 358480
^2x 16GB B-die, don't worry about memory frequency, that's just how Z490 Dark and 11900k are

If you want this faster, needs more v-dimm. Start at 1.8v, get it closer to 4000. Fan em. Then you'll be Ballin.

 

[agent_x007]

If you want this faster, needs more v-dimm. Start at 1.8v, get it closer to 4000. Fan em. Then you'll be Ballin.

Uh... I don't have VCCIO2 (and yes, I did tried going further on "VCCIO" - but board isn't having it), more memory voltage doesn't help in my case (I'm at 1.5V currently).

@lepudruk As others mentioned previously, the most important thing for you, is to drop both tRRDs (SG + DG), tWR, and tFAW to more reasonable level.

 

[harm9963]

That can't possibly be right. Having flat timings usually means that the RAM is B-die, but this doesn't imply that not having flat timings means the RAM isn't B-die. The majority of XMP DDR4 kits with RCD and RP matching their CL are Samsung-B-die, but the majority of Samsung B-die kits still have higher RCD and RP than CL. It's a lower majority than for other DDR4 chips, but still definitely a majority. C-die and D-die don't work with latency timings as low as 14-14-14-34 at DDR4-3600.

This is 99%+ a Samsung B-die kit (Thaiphoon does occasionally misidentify chips, so it's not 100%), but if it's not Samsung B-die, it's an unusually good kit of either Micron 16Gb Rev B (getting dual-rank 16GB modules using 16Gb chips requires a weird config with half of the RAM disabled, but there are a few kits with 16Gb Rev B that do that. 8Gb Rev B chips are much weaker) or Rev E, or Hynix CJR or DJR. But if you have DDR4 that runs at 3600 CL14-14-14-34, you'd be insane to bet against it being B-die unless you have a specific reason to think it's something else.

3600cl14 16 16 16 7.8 1.45v or 4000cl16 16 16 16 1.45v , that's the two choices have in the BIOS

 

[lepudruk]

@lepudruk As others mentioned previously, the most important thing for you, is to drop both tRRDs (SG + DG), tWR, and tFAW to more reasonable level.

Ok, I will play with it tomorrow.

Just one more thing: since I've never used that app (ASUS Mem TweakIT), can you tell me how it works? (in general)
I suspect I have to change some values and then restart the system to take effect, right? Or it works in some other way?

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Uh... I don't have VCCIO2 (and yes, I did tried going further on "VCCIO" - but board isn't having it), more memory voltage doesn't help in my case (I'm at 1.5V currently).

@lepudruk As others mentioned previously, the most important thing for you, is to drop both tRRDs (SG + DG), tWR, and tFAW to more reasonable level.

1.5v is a starting voltage with B-Die kits 4266mhz CL19... you essentially haven't over-volted yet lol.

 

[Zazigalka]

Gear2 basically halves your memory controller frequency, avoid it with ddr4.

Some B-Die are better than others and some odd kits are not listed on the B-Die Finder page.

If this was my build, and it's for gaming... I'd be trying for higher frequency. 4400mhz should be a breeze. A little work for 4600mhz. At these speeds, the latency difference won't be enough to cry about. Intel on DDR5 is like 5-10% performance increase off the bat. (FYI / FFT)

anything over 4200 is not possible in 1:1 mode on alder lake and newer, and even that is really hard. ddr5 can compensate for that at +5600, ddr4 can't.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Gear2 basically halves your memory controller frequency, avoid it with ddr4.

anything over 4200 is not possible in 1:1 mode on alder lake and newer, and even that is really hard. ddr5 can compensate for that at +5600, ddr4 can't.

No it's not. But not always is 1:1 relevant outside cpu benchmarks. And even then would be questionable. Is system tuning only primaries? Is latency the only goal.

What's wrong with 4400mhz? This kit would do 4600mhz, but for whatever reason the relaxed timings bench fine.

16 threads. All are welcome to beat it.
NoT b-D¡£ !!

 

[agent_x007]

1.5v is a starting voltage with B-Die kits 4266mhz CL19... you essentially haven't over-volted yet lol.

My kit is rated at 4000MHz CL16 @ 1.45V - it will not boot at 3200MHz at Gear 1, regardless of settings used.
Z490 Dark + 11900k is just that cursed, I can point to BZ comment about this setup if you want his thought about this ?

 

[ShrimpBrime]

My kit is rated at 4000MHz CL16 @ 1.45V - it will not boot at 3200MHz at Gear 1, regardless of settings used.
Z490 Dark + 11900k is just that cursed, I can point to BZ comment about this setup if you want his thought about this ?

Nope, I know the deal. My A2s wouldn't do it either. On Maximus Hero even.

 

[agent_x007]

Nope, I know the deal. My A2s wouldn't do it either. On Maximus Hero even.

Not going to push 1.8V on vDIMM, when I know it's VCCIO2 that is the issue (since it's at 1.2V along with VCCIO and can't go higher) - Sorry.
I hope we didn't misunderstand each other due to MHz vs. MT/s thing...

EDIT : Same kit "works fine" on another platform BTW

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Not going to push 1.8V on vDIMM, when I know it's VCCIO2 that is the issue (since it's at 1.2V along with VCCIO and can't go higher) - Sorry.
I hope we didn't misunderstand each other due to MHz vs. MT/s thing...

I've been at 1.9v trying that CL12 4000mhz deal. Had a few chats with people that have far deeper knowledge than myself. It just happens the hardware mix I had wasn't good. CL 14 all day. 14-14-14-44 is nice place to be. But that was 14nm 8th gen 8700K. I guess the IMC might have needed cold, but that didn't help either.

Luck of the draw. It's not like we have trays of memory and processors like some guys out there. Spend a fortune just to get a good one? Man funk that. Work with what you got.

But my original point is bandwidth on Intel 12th gen AlderLake and up is where it's performance is at. I'd shoot for frequency here honestly.

Most gamers should Not go past Vccsa 1.205v anyways to keep their systems safe. You and I are starting to talk deep benchmarking PiMod on stripped operating systems looking for golds lol. I'm sorry for that.

 

[Taraquin]

@agent_x007 Cool, thanks! Screenshots in attachment below (didn't know which tab you need so I've captured all 4).

Edit: screenshot #2 as requested
View attachment 358484

Try the timings I suggested.

 

[lepudruk]

Try the timings I suggested.

Yes, I will try them today. Do you think I can use that soft (ASUS Mem TweakIT) or should I change them straight in BIOS? (to some of them, as mentioned before, I have no access through BIOS however)

 

[Taraquin]

Yes, I will try them today. Do you think I can use that soft (ASUS Mem TweakIT) or should I change them straight in BIOS? (to some of them, as mentioned before, I have no access through BIOS however)

If you can use asus app try with that

 

[lepudruk]

If you can use asus app try with that

Ok, it seems the values you have provided passed. Right now it looks like this:

However, I couldn't find 2 parameters (in my BIOS) that you've mentioned: 'TDWR' nor 'WRRD'. In Mem TweakIT I can see tRDWR_dr & _dd (value 18), few rows below there is also tWRRD_dr & _dd (value 16) - are those you were refering to?

 

[Taraquin]

Ok, it seems the values you have provided passed. Right now it looks like this:
View attachment 358562View attachment 358563

However, I couldn't find 2 parameters (in my BIOS) that you've mentioned: 'TDWR' nor 'WRRD'. In Mem TweakIT I can see tRDWR_dr & _dd (value 18), few rows below there is also tWRRD_dr & _dd (value 16) - are those you were refering to?

Good they passed Try upping tREFI to 65535. Yeah, but I can't remember how to best tweak them on Intel. I sold my 12400F a few months ago so I'm rusty on Intel-tertiary timings.

The settings you have changed so far should give you up to 10% free performance

 

[lepudruk]

Good they passed Try upping tREFI to 65535. Yeah, but I can't remember how to best tweak them on Intel. I sold my 12400F a few months ago so I'm rusty on Intel-tertiary timings.

The settings you have changed so far should give you up to 10% free performance

I updated tREFI value and performed some tests. Funny, cause right now I have same results as with default XMP profile @4000MHz.

For instance Cyberpunk 2077 had score of 88 fps with XMP@3600 and 83,5 fps with XMP@4000. Right now it's 84 fps. Not much gain if any I would say.