Freezing in games with new Radeon GPU, MCE-WHEA CPU Bus Error

[A Computer Guy]

So I had the time and decided to swap motherboards in my secondary PC, and went for the RX480 along the way.

Current setup is the same Win10 installation, now with a Seasonic Focus PX-750W PSU, the Radeon RX480 GPU and I kept 128GB@3600MT DOCP.

I'm sorry if I missed it but did you try my suggestion of just setting the DOCP and downclocking it to DDR4-3200 then progressively downclocking the RAM until the errors stop?

The 128GB is maximum strain on the CPU memory controller and the AM4 CPU is only certified for DDR4-3200 anyway. Although the AM4 IMC has proven quite well at exceeding DDR4-3200 with two dimms , at four and maximum capacity YMMV and the chance for difficulty emerges. Sometimes it's also just a compatibility issue that can't seemingly be resolved for example I used to run 128GB Nemix RAM but after some troubleshooting I couldn't overcome idle time failures but hour long stress tests all passed no problem. I had to try other brand that managed to fix my problem nicely. Sometimes only the right combination of Motherboard-CPU-RAM (and whatever else is putting stress on the system) will work as you approach the extremes of supported features.

 

[Vincero]

Have you tried adjusting the PCIe interface in the BIOS to use just gen3 instead of gen4?

Not a great solution, but worth testing - you will not lose much in real performance terms - wouldn't be the first CPU/GPU/motherboard combo to not like each other

 

[Zach_01]

I'm sorry if I missed it but did you try my suggestion of just setting the DOCP and downclocking it to DDR4-3200 then progressively downclocking the RAM until the errors stop?

The 128GB is maximum strain on the CPU memory controller and the AM4 CPU is only certified for DDR4-3200 anyway. Although the AM4 IMC has proven quite well at exceeding DDR4-3200 with two dimms , at four and maximum capacity YMMV and the chance for difficulty emerges. Sometimes it's also just a compatibility issue that can't seemingly be resolved for example I used to run 128GB Nemix RAM but after some troubleshooting I couldn't overcome idle time failures but hour long stress tests all passed no problem. I had to try other brand that managed to fix my problem nicely. Sometimes only the right combination of Motherboard-CPU-RAM (and whatever else is putting stress on the system) will work as you approach the extremes of supported features.

Absolutely right^^

And the latest AM4 CPUs (5800X3D, 5800XT, 5900XT) that have refreshed data regarding their DDR support are showing

2x1R DDR4-3200
2x2R DDR4-3200
4x1R DDR4-2933
4x2R DDR4-2667

The same is valid for the rest desktop 5000
Pretty much anything above 3200 is blind shooting
Although the last 2~3years of AM4 life things have improve significantly with newer BIOS versions, still... trying to run 3600 with 4x2R configuration is steep at least.

And on the question:
Why does it run well with RX480?
I'm saying the same as my first post in this thread.
Most likely the RX480 is a big bottleneck for gaming and the CPU (its cores and memory subsystem) are sitting and waiting for the GPU to "send" data.
The 6700XT is 2.5x the performance of RX480 and can put much greater load on the CPU and DDR data transfer.

 

[Bytorane]

I'm sorry if I missed it but did you try my suggestion of just setting the DOCP and downclocking it to DDR4-3200 then progressively downclocking the RAM until the errors stop?

The 128GB is maximum strain on the CPU memory controller and the AM4 CPU is only certified for DDR4-3200 anyway. Although the AM4 IMC has proven quite well at exceeding DDR4-3200 with two dimms , at four and maximum capacity YMMV and the chance for difficulty emerges. Sometimes it's also just a compatibility issue that can't seemingly be resolved for example I used to run 128GB Nemix RAM but after some troubleshooting I couldn't overcome idle time failures but hour long stress tests all passed no problem. I had to try other brand that managed to fix my problem nicely. Sometimes only the right combination of Motherboard-CPU-RAM (and whatever else is putting stress on the system) will work as you approach the extremes of supported features.

I think there was a reason, I kept it at the back of my head, but now I forgot, I think it was due to just how the results ended up happening.

RAM didn't seem to make a difference, I ran 1866MT for a while and it still kept happening, perhaps it wasn't enough, perhaps the "whatever BUS between GPU/CPU" was still hit too hard with the better GPU.

Sure, I could have also played with CPB and PBO and other CPU settings, but I read on other sites turning those things off sacrifices a lot of performance that makes 5900 the 5xxx series and you get 3900x performance, which is really kinda not my fault, it should work for how it comes out the factory.

Also, remember, I was testing exclusively with RX7800XT while being hooked up to Seasonic Vertex GX-850W, not RX6700XT.

Have you tried adjusting the PCIe interface in the BIOS to use just gen3 instead of gen4?

Not a great solution, but worth testing - you will not lose much in real performance terms - wouldn't be the first CPU/GPU/motherboard combo to not like each other

Kinda great idea, not exactly as a solution if it affect performance, but a good troubleshooting trick.

Absolutely right^^

And the latest AM4 CPUs (5800X3D, 5800XT, 5900XT) that have refreshed data regarding their DDR support are showing

2x1R DDR4-3200
2x2R DDR4-3200
4x1R DDR4-2933
4x2R DDR4-2667

The same is valid for the rest desktop 5000
Pretty much anything above 3200 is blind shooting
Although the last 2~3years of AM4 life things have improve significantly with newer BIOS versions, still... trying to run 3600 with 4x2R configuration is steep at least.

And on the question:
Why does it run well with RX480?
I'm saying the same as my first post in this thread.
Most likely the RX480 is a big bottleneck for gaming and the CPU (its cores and memory subsystem) are sitting and waiting for the GPU to "send" data.
The 6700XT is 2.5x the performance of RX480 and can put much greater load on the CPU and DDR data transfer.

Can you guys post these "revised timings", did AMD officially say anywhere?

I could as a last resort buy brand new 2x8GB 3600MT kit, quick search

G.SKILL F4-3600C16D-16GVK 2x 8GB SS Samsung 16-16-16-36 1.35 Ryzen™ 5000-Series CPU 3600 3600 ● ● ●
The model I can order right now from a local shop is slightly different, C at the end. G.SKILL F4-3600C16D-16GVKC - good enough?

I'll keep browsing more stuff and doing some comparisons with QVL ... ofcourse I could target 3200MT not necessairly 3600MT.

 

[Vincero]

Kinda great idea, not exactly as a solution if it affect performance, but a good troubleshooting trick.

You'll be fine (https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4090-pci-express-scaling/):

AM4 peaked with PCIe Gen4 anyway, and apart from M.2 SSDs, I doubt most GPUs would ever benefit.

 

[Zach_01]

I think there was a reason, I kept it at the back of my head, but now I forgot, I think it was due to just how the results ended up happening.

RAM didn't seem to make a difference, I ran 1866MT for a while and it still kept happening, perhaps it wasn't enough, perhaps the "whatever BUS between GPU/CPU" was still hit too hard with the better GPU.

Sure, I could have also played with CPB and PBO and other CPU settings, but I read on other sites turning those things off sacrifices a lot of performance that makes 5900 the 5xxx series and you get 3900x performance, which is really kinda not my fault, it should work for how it comes out the factory.

Also, remember, I was testing exclusively with RX7800XT while being hooked up to Seasonic Vertex GX-850W, not RX6700XT.


Kinda great idea, not exactly as a solution if it affect performance, but a good troubleshooting trick.




Can you guys post these "revised timings", did AMD officially say anywhere?

I could as a last resort buy brand new 2x8GB 3600MT kit, quick search

G.SKILL F4-3600C16D-16GVK 2x 8GB SS Samsung 16-16-16-36 1.35 Ryzen™ 5000-Series CPU 3600 3600 ● ● ●
The model I can order right now from a local shop is slightly different, C at the end. G.SKILL F4-3600C16D-16GVKC - good enough?

I'll keep browsing more stuff and doing some comparisons with QVL ... ofcourse I could target 3200MT not necessairly 3600MT.

Before spending more money...

When you say you run 1866MT it means that you set the speed in BIOS to 933MHz?
To all MCLK, FCLK, UCLK?

Also it would be good to see the below screenshots of yours

This is ThaiphoonBurner and it does not matter how is the current DRAM settings
Its DRAM specs


And a ZenTimings screenshot with the crushing 3600MT/s settings

 

[eidairaman1]

Id try the 6700xt in a totally different system...

 

[Bytorane]

Before spending more money...

When you say you run 1866MT it means that you set the speed in BIOS to 933MHz?

I wouldn't keep the RAM, we have 14-day no-reason no-question hassle-free return policy. Plus I'm going to negotiate this test upforont first. Last resort I'll swap to by something else I already planning.

The BIOS setting is literally: DRAM Frequency: DDR4-1866
Which I think is doubled. Also that's the lowest I went.

ThaipoonBurner ... from Softipedia, a bit of a so-so: https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/cc01fc3d50969ed97607bf5b44df56252650cea906583549bbaaeb7ee6d61fab

Update: I think I posted the wrong screenshot, I meant DDR4-1866, not DDR4-3600
Added below:

 

[A Computer Guy]

Not that our settings are very comparable because my RAM is Micron and ECC but I wonder if you might have more stability with a higher or lower PROC ODT combined with a downclock.
I looked at your motherboard ROG Strix X570-E Gaming page it will support ECC btw. You might have some luck with Micron 18ASF4G72AZ-3G2F1.
It's not exactly cheap but this is what I ordered MTA18ASF4G72AZ-3G2R.

Looking at the QVL Asus has some claims of "4x 32GB" DS modules starting from the bottom of page 13. They claim 6 models at DDR4-3600.

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketAM4/PRIME_X570-PRO/Memory_QVL_for_AMD_Ryzen_5000_Series_Processors_X570_0423.pdf?model=ROG%20STRIX%20X570-E%20GAMING

The model Kingston KF3600C18D4/32X does not show up on the list. In fact it seems a poor listing for Kingston modules in the QVL so I think there must be some poor compatibility with Kingston or they just didn't test a lot of them.

 

[Bytorane]

If I do have to replace anything major, I would rather replace the whole PC along the way.

 

[Zach_01]

A question
If you do change to a newer system what is your expectation in terms of DDR5 speed assuming that you will still go for 128GB?

Because both available DDR5 platforms have similar (in logic) support of memory

Ryzen7000 has this support
2x1R DDR5-5200
2x2R DDR5-5200
4x1R DDR5-3600
4x2R DDR5-3600

Ryzen9000
2x1R DDR5-5600
2x2R DDR5-5600
4x1R DDR5-3600
4x2R DDR5-3600

Intel 14th
Up to DDR5-5600

and by "up to" 99.9% means that for high capacity configurations the speed is lower
So you are forgetting going in the 6000+ region of speed when using 128MB with both AM5/LGA1700 platforms.

Most of users on both platforms are going for 32/48GB, 2sticks configuration in order to hit 6000-6400 on AM5 or even more than that on LGA1700

 

[Vincero]

A question
If you do change to a newer system what is your expectation in terms of DDR5 speed assuming that you will still go for 128GB?

Because both available DDR5 platforms have similar (in logic) support of memory

Ryzen7000 has this support
2x1R DDR5-5200
2x2R DDR5-5200
4x1R DDR5-3600
4x2R DDR5-3600

Ryzen9000
2x1R DDR5-5600
2x2R DDR5-5600
4x1R DDR5-3600
4x2R DDR5-3600

Gotta say, that's one thing that puts me off upgrading right now - that hit to memory speeds as the bus gets loaded up with this current / first gen of DDR5 products is quite a big hit - yeah DDR4 systems have an impact but on DDR5 it's no joke.

Have you tried adjusting the PCIe interface in the BIOS to use just gen3 instead of gen4?

Did you actually give this a go? Did it make any difference?

 

[Bytorane]

Ryzen7000 has this support
2x1R DDR5-5200
2x2R DDR5-5200
4x1R DDR5-3600
4x2R DDR5-3600

Ryzen9000
2x1R DDR5-5600
2x2R DDR5-5600
4x1R DDR5-3600
4x2R DDR5-3600

Again, where are you quoting this from???

I can't see it on the official AMD's 5900x page for example, it just says "Up to 3200 MT/s"

Did you actually give this a go? Did it make any difference?

I still have RX480 installed, it's not crashing despite 128GB DOCP 3600MT, going to switch to Nvidia GTX1070 first, and if it does freeze/crash, then one of the things I'll try is configuring for PCIe Gen3 bus.

I can't move that fast, all of this involves quite a bit of work and I'm suppose to be having summer relaxation right now, not stressing out with this, so I'm moving slower intentionally as well, I don't have the time all day to do this, I have other jobs and chores to do besides PC troubleshooting, patience.

 

[Zach_01]

Again, where are you quoting this from???

Sorry I forgot to mention...

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen.html#tabs-0eb49394b2-item-dfd73644d4-tab

At bottom of page you will see a Specification table for each Ryzen series 4000-9000
You choose the series, then the CPU you want to see and then click the "connectivity" section to expand

For example:

 

[A Computer Guy]

Again, where are you quoting this from???

For AM4 some motherboard vendors were good about communicating these possible tradeoffs in RAM configuration...
for example ASRock Taichi Razor they give you the charts for each CPU series.

I can't move that fast, all of this involves quite a bit of work and I'm suppose to be having summer relaxation right now, not stressing out with this, so I'm moving slower intentionally as well, I don't have the time all day to do this, I have other jobs and chores to do besides PC troubleshooting, patience.

Memory testing/validation is labor intensive regardless if it's troubleshooting or overclocking with stability. If time is critical you would be better of trading kits for one on the QVL to get a greater chance of plug and play success and ebay the kit that isn't working in your situation.

 

[Zach_01]

Memory testing/validation is labor intensive regardless if it's troubleshooting or overclocking with stability. If time is critical you would be better of trading kits for one on the QVL to get a greater chance of plug and play success and ebay the kit that isn't working in your situation.

Still a big gamble I think for such a high density of ranks per channel
Better chances? Maybe...

If this kit isn't even stable at 2666~2933MT/s then maybe its worth the shot of another QVL kit.
Maybe a good compromise would be 2x32GB, but I will not pretend to know @Bytorane needs of RAM.
And when it comes to AM4/DDR4 about Ryzen I trust the most the "G.Skill Trident Z Neo" kits (GTZN)
Specifically designed for Ryzen

Desktop Memory - Trident Z Neo (For AMD) - G.SKILL International Enterprise Co., Ltd.

Designed for performance, G.SKILL desktop memory is engineered from hand-selected components and rigorously tested for stability and compatibility.

www.gskill.com

 

[A Computer Guy]

Still a big gamble I think for such a high density of ranks per channel
Better chances? Maybe...

True, there is still a risk a QVL kit won't work as intended. I wonder how badly OP needs 128GB? There is always Threadripper platform...

 

[Zach_01]

@Bytorane
Have you ever "met"
Ryzen DRAM calculator?

Its a bit outdated, designed for Zen2 (3000) but might help you find stability.
Maybe worth a couple of shots there

It requires though to import DRAM XMP/DOCP profile for better calculation.
The profile can be captured/exported by ThaiphoonBurner with 1 specific setting altered from the default exporting.

If you are interested please do tell

 

[Bytorane]

Running GTX 1070 8GB ... couple of hours of Fortnite, Apex Legends, DCS, Benchmarks ... nothing wrong yet.

Sorry I forgot to mention...

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen.html#tabs-0eb49394b2-item-dfd73644d4-tab

At bottom of page you will see a Specification table for each Ryzen series 4000-9000
You choose the series, then the CPU you want to see and then click the "connectivity" section to expand

For example:
View attachment 358697

Sigh ... this is how my page looks like:

https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/5000-series/amd-ryzen-9-5900x.html

https://www.amd.com/en/support/downloads/drivers.html/processors/ryzen/ryzen-5000-series/amd-ryzen-9-5900x.html#amd_support_product_spec

Can you just please post the direct link as to which URL are you getting that on?

For AM4 some motherboard vendors were good about communicating these possible tradeoffs in RAM configuration...
for example ASRock Taichi Razor they give you the charts for each CPU series.

View attachment 358708


Memory testing/validation is labor intensive regardless if it's troubleshooting or overclocking with stability. If time is critical you would be better of trading kits for one on the QVL to get a greater chance of plug and play success and ebay the kit that isn't working in your situation.

I'm not intentionally trying to tweak/optimize anything, I'm really trying to get out of this situation ASAP without having to fork over for a new PC and sacrificing 128GB of RAM. I don't really care about speed, I never did, I bought 3600 thinking 3200 was mediocre and thought if I'm building a good high-end system I wouldn't want to cheap out on RAM being slow just because it's 128GB, unfortunately I didn't do enoguh research, I saw it "supports 128GB" and there was no warnings or anything in any specs docs about how tricky 128GB could be.

I never knew that deeply about memory ranks, it's really not our customer fault, these things have ZERO documentation ... where is RANK information for the DIMMs, what utility displays this? What manufacturer displays this in any of the documentation.

Well, double checked and now I found one mention in Thaiphoon's SPD Report:

PDF Report attached below

JEDEC Raw Card Designer: Samsung
Module Nominal Height: 31 < H <= 32 mm
Module Thickness Maximum, Front: 1 < T <= 2 mm
Module Thickness Maximum, Back: 1 < T <= 2 mm
Number of DIMM Ranks: 2
Address Mapping from Edge Connector to DRAM: Mirrored
DRAM Device Package: Standard Monolithic
DRAM Device Package Type: 78-ball FBGA
DRAM Device Die Count: Single die

I had no idea it's THAT complicated and so poorly communicated regarding down to the SPECIFIC DIMM SLOT, that was never a thing to my knowledge back in DDR2 and DDR3 days. Or I'm just not ... yes, I was never seriously overclocking anything, I cared more about practical and functional tweaks rather than pure performance. I have more experience tweaking and troubleshooting OS, software and repairing many of those issues that would make other people unnecessairly reinstall the whole system.

Really no fast solution here, other than to keep pressing on with the testing unfortunately.

 

[Zach_01]

There is a misunderstanding...
I mentioned it earlier/yesterday, maybe not very clear

For the 5900X I get the same as you "up to 3200" because some employee is too lazy or deliberately doesnt change the memory specs to a more detailed ones.
The 5800XT, 5800X3D, 5900XT have them in more detail

This:
Up to 3200MT/s

and this:
2x1R DDR4-3200
2x2R DDR4-3200
4x1R DDR4-2933
4x2R DDR4-2667

Is exactly the same!
Those are the up to 3200MT/s specs

 

[Bytorane]

I just updated the previous post with the word on Rank stuff.

Okay so where's an explanation what 2x1R stuff means? I'm suppose to know that from where? AMD's University of Processor Wisdom

Does it mean Ryzen, Riser, Router, Reserved ... it could mean freaking anything in the tech world, but oh just maybe it means Rank?

Sorry that I'm asking in such a way, but I'm not trying to fool around, we have to get down to details like this.

 

[Zach_01]

Its Ranks

In you case your sticks are DualRanked (DR) or 2R each.
You can see it on ThaiphoonBurner specs and ZenTimings (bottom)

1R or SR is when the DRAM stick has chips only on 1 side (Single Ranked)
And its not possible yet for 32GB on 1 side, I guess...

My RAM is 16GB each stick and also DR (older chips)

 

[Bytorane]

So mine aren't Quad Rank like we initially thought? Or is perhaps the Quad coming from when you combine "two DIMMS per channel" or whatever are those confusing doublings again.

 

[Vincero]

I just updated the previous post with the word on Rank stuff.

Okay so where's an explanation what 2x1R stuff means? I'm suppose to know that from where? AMD's University of Processor Wisdom

Does it mean Ryzen, Riser, Router, Reserved ... it could mean freaking anything in the tech world, but oh just maybe it means Rank?

Sorry that I'm asking in such a way, but I'm not trying to fool around, we have to get down to details like this.

https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/what-is-a-memory-rank

Basically the more storage modules on the RAM DIMM stick the bigger the amount of RAM blocks presented to the memory controller.
Modules which are single rank appear as a single 64-bit block, dual rank 128-bit, etc., normally reffered to as 1R, 2R, 4R, and so on - you usually only see 1R or 2R for normal desktop devices.

The notation of a) 2x1R, b) 2x2R for example means a) 2 sticks of single rank, b) 2 sticks of dual rank

The more ranks essentially the more work/load the memory controller needs to manage and this has a knock on effect on the speed. Keep in mind we are at memory capacities where once a upon a time (not that long ago) you'd have needed registered/buffered memory modules to manage this - yeah things improve but it doesn't negate the added complexity.

Spec sheets within system motherboard manuals (if you still get one these days) usually list a table of memory slot usage and optimal configurations, as well as scenarios where "if x slots are populated the speed will default to xxx MHz" (assuming the module doesn't have a lower speed limit on the SPD which it will probably then drop to).

 

[Zach_01]

So mine aren't Quad Rank like we initially thought?

Its 4x2R, the worst-case configuration
The best are only 2 sticks SR(1R) or DR(2R)

The first 2 configurations

2x1R DDR4-3200
2x2R DDR4-3200
4x1R DDR4-2933
4x2R DDR4-2667