Why everyone say Zen 5 is bad ?

[TheDeeGee]

Because people expect double the performance each generation.

And probably the ones complaining are the ones wasting money upgrading their PC every year, it's their own doing.

 

[Carillon]

Because people expect double the performance each generation.

And probably the ones complaining are the ones wasting money upgrading their PC every year, it's their own doing.

I was expecting the performance that was promised by the manufacturer.

 

[phanbuey]

I was expecting the performance that was promised by the manufacturer.

yeah exactly -- the expectations were not from nowhere.

 

[ARF]

Really? Well. Most programs even don't utilitize the existing amount of cores.

Wrong.

Do you need "moar corez"? Personally, I don't. For me, whatever the 7800X3D offers, both in single-core, and multi-core performance, is plenty.

What other means do you offer in order to increase the performance ? It's quite obvious that you have already hit a performance wall with 16 cores. Next step is 20 cores, 24 cores. You need WIDER CPUs, if you even understand what that means.
See Threadripper, for a reference

Review: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7000 Series

AMD does it again with a phenomenal new workstation processor that combines high frequencies with buckets of cores

develop3d.com

 

[Zach_01]

Wrong.



What other means do you offer in order to increase the performance ? It's quite obvious that you have already hit a performance wall with 16 cores. Next step is 20 cores, 24 cores. You need WIDER CPUs, if you even understand what that means.
See Threadripper, for a reference

Review: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7000 Series

AMD does it again with a phenomenal new workstation processor that combines high frequencies with buckets of cores

develop3d.com

View attachment 359372View attachment 359373

And why should the avg user care about Threadripper performance? To run benchmarks and brag about scores?
Bringing that level of cores and complexity in general down to mainstream platform will only make it even more expensive.

Who ever really needs more threads can go to HEDT
Its that simple...

 

[ARF]

And why should the avg user care about Threadripper performance?

Why did the average user jump from a quad core Core i7-7700K to a sixteen core Ryzen 9 3950X ?

 

[Zach_01]

Why did the average user jump from a quad core Core i7-7700K to a sixteen core Ryzen 9 3950X

Because 4cores was not enough for almost anything.

What are you saying?
If a 4-seat car doesn't fit a family with 4 kids, they want to buy a 50-seat bus and not a 7-seater?

30+ threads on a mainstream platform offer enough diversity for many different tasks users do.
For more go to Threadripper. We dont need added cost.
Difficult to grasp?

What case scenario the avg user really needs more than 32threads?

 

[ARF]

Difficult to grasp?

For you, definitely.
We move to more advanced manufacturing processes with smaller transistors. The only reasonable way is to increase the core count, in order to keep the die size in some normal regions.
No one wants to have a super hot 70 mm^2 chip overclocked to 170 watt and no normal cooler being able to sustain that thermal load.

See the coolers' performance tables in order to get the meaning.

Valkyrie Vind SL125 Review

The Valkyrie Vind SL125 is a striking and unique tower cooler with a visually appealing design and numerous features. It offers a red and black theme that is eye-catching, and the swappable top plate adds a touch of customization. However, despite its stylish appearance, the price point does...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Zach_01]

And this is your solution to heat density?
Add more unnecessary cores?



Great engineering!

 

[gurusmi]

Wrong.

And that is sourced by which argument? By your phantasy and wishes because you want it so? Some hobbits told it to you and they don't lie?

 

[Assimilator]

Because people expect double the performance each generation.

And probably the ones complaining are the ones wasting money upgrading their PC every year, it's their own doing.

What an utterly moronic non-argument.

 

[AusWolf]

What other means do you offer in order to increase the performance ? It's quite obvious that you have already hit a performance wall with 16 cores. Next step is 20 cores, 24 cores. You need WIDER CPUs, if you even understand what that means.
See Threadripper, for a reference

How can I hit a performance wall with 16 cores if I'm not even fully using 8?

I see no "performance wall" here:

 

[igormp]

The problem is moar corez! We are stuck at 16 for how many generations already? Since 2018? That's a stagnation similar to the "quad-core is enough" shenanigans by intel in the 2010s.

As others said, not many folks actually need more cores.
Another issue is that adding more cores would be useless, since those cores are already pretty much bandwidth-starved. No point in adding more cores while keeping with dual-channel. It's pretty easy to notice that in scenarios where the scaling from the 9900x to the 9950x is not great.

 

[Zazigalka]

more cores - yes, but not on separate ccx's. 8 core cpus will stay on top as long as amd/intel can only manufacture 8-core ccx/p-core parts without crippling the cache. 12 core zen5 w/o SMT would probably smash a 9700x with it if it could have all those cores on a single ccx

 

[iameatingjam]

How can I hit a performance wall with 16 cores if I'm not even fully using 8?

I see no "performance wall" here:
View attachment 359375

I often wondered how many people poneyed up for core 2 quads back in the day, thinking they'd be future proofing or something. When even in 2024... you can still buy quad cores, and they perform so so much better. I'm glad we've passed the phase where core count was like the #1 qualifying CPU spec. Intel came in with ecores like right after that was ending. "Hey guys look we got 24 cores!" **crickets** Some guy: "Where's the x3d cache?"

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I often wondered how many people poneyed up for core 2 quads back in the day, thinking they'd be future proofing or something. When even in 2024... you can still buy quad cores, and they perform so so much better. I'm glad we've passed the phase where core count was like the #1 qualifying CPU spec. Intel came in with ecores like right after that was ending. "Hey guys look we got 24 cores!" **crickets** Some guy: "Where's the x3d cache?"

Back in 2014 I ditched the mainstream platform for my primary pc and went with a 5820k that was probably the cpu I kept the longest post 2010. I did have a 6700k in a secondary pc though that replaced a 4790k based system in late 2015.

These days at least we can pick what we want on one platform although I wish amd went to 12C CCD becuase we've stagnated at this point at 16 for a half decade since the 3950X launched back in 2019. I'm not saying it's absolutely needed but stagnation is never a good thing the 6 core options should've been dropped this generation with the R5 becoming an 8 core option imho they would've looked so much better as the two cheapest options being 8 and 12 cores.

Future proofing is not a thing doesn't matter what you spend your hardware will be old and feel old 3-4 years later.

 

[iameatingjam]

Back in 2014 I ditched the mainstream platform for my primary pc and went with a 5820k that was probably the cpu I kept the longest post 2010. I did have a 6700k in a secondary pc though that replaced a 4790k based system in late 2015.

These days at least we can pick what we want on one platform although I wish amd went to 12C CCD becuase we've stagnated at this point at 16 for a half decade since the 3950X launched back in 2019. I'm not saying it's absolutely needed but stagnation is never a good thing the 6 core options should've been dropped this generation with the R5 becoming an 8 core option imho they would've looked so much better as the two cheapest options being 8 and 12 cores.

Future proofing is not a thing doesn't matter what you spend your hardware will be old and feel old 3-4 years later.

You know I like to make fun of intel but I think one of the reasons I bought one was because it was monolithic, and I didn't have to think about ccds... how many cores per ccd, is this the right ccd for gaming? Yeah technically the 7800x3d would have been more than fine and ecores got their own quirks but I guess brand familiarity still won out in the end.
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Plus 7800x3ds were kinda exploding at the time...


And on the topic of long lasting cpus my 3570k lasted me all the way until 2022 I think it was? Maybe 2021. The only reason I upgraded was because it couldn't run rpcs3. It was still running the pc games I wanted to play just fine. (Pretty much just final fantasy 14, and tales of arise)

 

[phanbuey]

more cores - yes, but not on separate ccx's. 8 core cpus will stay on top as long as amd/intel can only manufacture 8-core ccx/p-core parts without crippling the cache. 12 core zen5 w/o SMT would probably smash a 9700x with it if it could have all those cores on a single ccx

This is why i was kind of hoping for a 3d-vcache only density core design - like juiced up zen4c cores - if they could fit 10-12 density cores with 3D cache they sort of create the perfect mix cpu.

AMD Zen 4c Not an E-core, 35% Smaller than Zen 4, but with Identical IPC | TechPowerUp
^ these with 3D cache and higher clocks...

20 or 24 core with dual CCDs 3D cache to offsett the lack of l3 cache for productivity. Would really be an interesting product.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

This is why i was kind of hoping for a 3d-vcache only density core design - like juiced up zen4c cores - if they could fit 10-12 density cores with 3D cache they sort of create the perfect mix cpu.

AMD Zen 4c Not an E-core, 35% Smaller than Zen 4, but with Identical IPC | TechPowerUp
^ these with 3D cache and higher clocks...

20 or 24 core with dual CCDs 3D cache to offsett the lack of l3 cache for productivity. Would really be an interesting product.

I'm kinda in the same boat with Intel if they had a 12P core option I'd have bought it at launch I'm hoping AL other improvements offset being stuck or choosing to be stuck at 8p cores for intel

 

[Zach_01]

This is why i was kind of hoping for a 3d-vcache only density core design - like juiced up zen4c cores - if they could fit 10-12 density cores with 3D cache they sort of create the perfect mix cpu.

AMD Zen 4c Not an E-core, 35% Smaller than Zen 4, but with Identical IPC | TechPowerUp
^ these with 3D cache and higher clocks...

20 or 24 core with dual CCDs 3D cache to offsett the lack of l3 cache for productivity. Would really be an interesting product.

Like @oxrufiioxo said... I would buy a 10-12core CCD CPU (+3D even better), but a platform to be able to support 20-24cores will only add complexity and cost to the I/O and to the board to support all these cores.
And we are talking about a mainstream platform that does not need unnecessary additional cost.

 

[phanbuey]

I'm kinda in the same boat with Intel if they had a 12P core option I'd have bought it at launch I'm hoping AL other improvements offset being stuck or choosing to be stuck at 8p cores for intel

I think any type of latency improvements are going to be pretty good for AL, since when playing around with 8200mhz ram on my 13700k is still scaling in games at 5.3Ghz. Also their brief stint with APO, and knowing that APO tuning is coming to thread director is also pretty promising. But I agree - they will really need to smash it out of the park with AL especially since HT is going away. So not only 8 P cores but 8 P threads as well.

Like @oxrufiioxo said... I would buy a 10-12core CCD CPU (+3D even better), but a platform to be able to support 20-24cores will only add complexity and cost to the I/O and to the board to support all these cores.
And we are talking about a mainstream platform that does not need unnecessary additional cost.

But they already have the cores, the design is out and works well, and they already have a platform that's capable and efficient enough to support those core counts -the current platform is fast enough to support a 24 core part. If anything the 7700 non x and the 65W 9700X show that they have more than enough headroom to make a more dense CCD. All they would need to do is adapt the bergamo core slightly, add v-cache, and they could release some really interesting skus - especially with the zen5c variant and the faster single core ipc.

Also it would give the Mobo manufacturers room to push out higher tier AM5 boards which they've been dying to do - need more pci-e lanes and whatnot? new chipset! There's definitely a gap in the HEDT market to push those parts - here's your productivity 24 core monstrosity with tons of 3d-cache and avx-512, while a 12 core one CCD 3d v cache part would sell like hotcakes to everyone else.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Like @oxrufiioxo said... I would buy a 10-12core CCD CPU (+3D even better), but a platform to be able to support 20-24cores will only add complexity and cost to the I/O and to the board to support all these cores.
And we are talking about a mainstream platform that does not need unnecessary additional cost.

Just make it a halo tier product like a 4090 not like people didn't use to spend 1k just to get more cores back in 2010.

Shit make it a monolithic gaming focused product with 12 cores and vcache even better lol

 

[iameatingjam]

Guys, it's probably just this. It wouldn't surprise me if you got the same result on intel.

Maybe microsoft can make a windows lite. Not for mobile devices but for people who don't want one drive or co-pilot or edge and all the other years of accumulated bloat, and just want to game. Maybe there'd be like a 10% performance gain. But I bet that wouldn't fit their 'vision'

Because 4cores was not enough for almost anything.

What are you saying?
If a 4-seat car doesn't fit a family with 4 kids, they want to buy a 50-seat bus and not a 7-seater?

30+ threads on a mainstream platform offer enough diversity for many different tasks users do.
For more go to Threadripper. We dont need added cost.
Difficult to grasp?

What case scenario the avg user really needs more than 32threads?

Seriously I feel like the last thing I need is more threads. Actually idk I could go without ai accelerators too. Can't we put some more cache there or something? I've seen pictures, they take up a lot of realestate.

 

[Frick]

I was expecting the performance that was promised by the manufacturer.

In a perfect world marketing wouldn't even exist, but this isn't a perfect world and we can only go by what the marketers say, meaning they say THIS WILL BE up to 30% FASTER. They never promise anything, because that is legally actionable.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

It's very simple actually it's all about the price/performance for this price people expect that ZEN 5 should perform better if it was cheaper and perform like this I bet people will be much more satisfied.....anyway there are some reviews on linux where ZEN 5 actually performs so much better....