AMD Works with Microsoft to Improve Zen 3 thru Zen 5 Performance in Windows 11 24H2

[NoneRain]

Microsoft sucks, but this is on AMD.
They are working with MS after weeks of release. AFTER RELEASE.

"Oh no, our tests were not comprehensive enough and in almost all scenarios our chips perform below expectations within the most used desktop OS"
what a joke.

 

[Event Horizon]

Microsoft sucks, but this is on AMD.
They are working with MS after weeks of release. AFTER RELEASE.

"Oh no, our tests were not comprehensive enough and in almost all scenarios our chips perform below expectations within the most used desktop OS"
what a joke.

I agree. Nobody forced them to rush the release. Intel was busy drowning in an ocean of bad press and frustration. AMD could have caught this with a single intern running some tests on a typical Windows setup. If you're gonna release a desktop CPU make sure it's ready for the most popular desktop OS.

 

[maxli86]

I have a question about AMD processor and the chipset driver.
In the past from AMD Ryzen 1000 to 3000, AMD release the AMD Ryzen power plan in the chipset driver.
This power plan helps to optimize the processor performance and efficiency.

When 5000 series come out, power plan is drop but I does question is there a need?
As it's obvious Windows doesn't work/perform well with AMD unlike Intel.
Since Intel CPU architecture remains the same for most of it's generation.

Whereas AMD Ryzen wise CPU architecture is completely different one thus concurrent Windows aren't
optimized to run properly? Which is why Win 11 24H2 needed since it's yet to be release.
Microsoft and AMD can work out to optimize Windows for Zen 5?

Point here is as Win 11 24H2 is yet to be release, what can be done to improve improvement.
Bring back AMD Ryzen power plan?

 

[Dr. Dro]

When/If there's an LTSC IoT Ent. version of 24H2+, maybe I'd put Win11 back on my rig. MAYBE.

Then again, I wonder if WIn10LTSCEntIoT even has such issues that need addressing?

There is and I have been running it on both of my rigs. It's good enough I am considering upgrading my laptop from Windows 10 to it. I kept my laptop on 10 because I use it for work and I wanted to keep it as conservative as possible. I think it's about as good as Windows 11 gets, although, admittedly, it remains but a shadow of Windows Vista in my book.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I mean we have Linux which handles everything from ARM, MIPS, RISCV, x86, Itanium(?) & what not.

It’s rather interesting how Linux is showing how flexible it is as we have more viable architecture variety in the PC space. WOA is only now showing some promise after 12 years of effort.

 

[Vayra86]

Microsoft sucks, but this is on AMD.
They are working with MS after weeks of release. AFTER RELEASE.

"Oh no, our tests were not comprehensive enough and in almost all scenarios our chips perform below expectations within the most used desktop OS"
what a joke.

You mean like those scheduler updates we saw for Windows after Intel released its E core CPUs?

And how even past the initial wave of updates the better half was still not scheduled right?

I agree though. But this seems to happen everywhere, because if it happens too early in the process, I think there are competitive / fair market related issues.

I just went to WIN 24H2 , what i noticed so far that it reports the CPU speed better in Task Manager (zen3) but it feels a bit choppy compared to 23H2 (maybe it has to settle for a few hours) , sadly i didnt test any games before the update but it looks faster and for some reason now is jumping between cores more. I can tell you that at the first look in WoW im having more fps than usual but benchmarking in WoW is not to be trusted. (it can be placebo too )

Yeah its hard to say for me as I went for 11 along with a new CPU but honestly Win 11 is definitely snappy. Not seeing much of any choppiness either. There are more smooth transitions in desktop use which kinda gives the impression it might be slower but its really not, those aren't there to give the illusion of smoothness while the OS is hard at work like it is on Apple devices (yeah...), they're just smooth transitions.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Now that I had the time to read the thread more thoroughly and watch HUB's video in its entirety, by trying to shift blame onto reviewers and consumers, coming up with wild stories like "admin account changes branch prediction engine behavior", I'm gonna argue that this AMD's very own "You're holding it wrong" moment

 

[HM_Actua1]

Ummm 24h2???
when did that get released.

Windows 11 - release information

Learn release information for Windows 11 releases

learn.microsoft.com

 

[Event Horizon]

Ummm 24h2???
when did that get released.

Windows 11 - release information

Learn release information for Windows 11 releases

learn.microsoft.com

It's in the Insider Track. You can sign up for it and get the update right now if you're brave.

 

[Dr. Dro]

It's in the Insider Track. You can sign up for it and get the update right now if you're brave.

The final RTM image (10.0.26100.1) has been released a few months ago. They're seemingly being overly cautious with release, since the minor version is already all the way up to 1457 already.

 

[izy]

eah its hard to say for me as I went for 11 along with a new CPU but honestly Win 11 is definitely snappy. Not seeing much of any choppiness either. There are more smooth transitions in desktop use which kinda gives the impression it might be slower but its really not, those aren't there to give the illusion of smoothness while the OS is hard at work like it is on Apple devices (yeah...), they're just smooth transitions.

Yeah it seems that after i went to 24H2 the CPU is pushed harder or something , i think my CO was unstable after the update and my nvidia driver was crashing in the background , i saw that in the event log , i went with a less aggressive CO on my best cores and reinstalled the nvidia driver and so far so good.

 

[chrcoluk]

Its a spyware that cannot even work properly.

Watched this video in morning and FC6 and CP2077 are outliers it seems.

Interesting thing he explained with SVM needing to be turned off if VBS is enabled discreetly due to some dependencies requiring it. I think Intel equivalent setting is VT-x.

Also the bios auto enabled/disabled problem.

But the video did feel a lot of stuff could have been cut. The bios part I was waiting for was right at the end.

Now that I had the time to read the thread more thoroughly and watch HUB's video in its entirety, by trying to shift blame onto reviewers and consumers, coming up with wild stories like "admin account changes branch prediction engine behavior", I'm gonna argue that this AMD's very own "You're holding it wrong" moment

I am going to double down on my reviewer guide comments, get rid of the reviewers guide. If there is an NDA, remove it so if the guide has to stay, reviewers can fully publish it.

The concept of doing reviews becomes flawed if a reviewer is expected to match the vendor's results. You have to take into account different software and games tested, different way of testing games, game settings, different windows configuration, different drivers, different bios version, different bios settings, impact of storage used, the list goes on.

If different reviewers get different results, thats fine, its a review, its not a validation process.

I am glad HUB made this video though, it offers us plebs some insight. AMD should have waited a month or so for the update to get rolled out so then this issue of incorrect prediction behaviour would not have came up (at least for Windows 11, which all the reviewers use now I think).

Wendell from leve1ltechs in his video interestingly also mentioned all the AMD fan boy tribal behaviour in their channel comments, it seems both GN and level1techs have started to get sick of it now as well.

 

[tabascosauz]

Now that I had the time to read the thread more thoroughly and watch HUB's video in its entirety, by trying to shift blame onto reviewers and consumers, coming up with wild stories like "admin account changes branch prediction engine behavior", I'm gonna argue that this AMD's very own "You're holding it wrong" moment

AMD grasping at straws to try and change their narrative and sweep this under the rug is just embarrassing.

And I also don't see how "use admin account" makes their story any better, even if it is exactly what they say it is. Both Intel and AMD offloading more and more of the firmware's work onto Windows (even if it is inevitable/justified to some degree due to any design reasons) has always resulted in no shortage of performance problems and isn't something to be proud of.

 

[Dr. Dro]

AMD grasping at straws to try and change their narrative and sweep this under the rug is just embarrassing.

And I also don't see how "use admin account" makes their story any better, even if it is exactly what they say it is. Both Intel and AMD offloading more and more of the firmware's work onto Windows (even if it is inevitable/justified to some degree due to any design reasons) has always resulted in no shortage of performance problems and isn't something to be proud of.

Running things under built-in administrator account does not cause things to run directly in ring 0, in fact, the built-in administrator account only overrides file system access permissions and has user account control disabled by default, otherwise any administrator-level user account, including the one we regularly use with our machines, has the exact same permissions

It only really enables most - not all! - privileges, including those who grant the right to debug, profile and modify the system performance and scheduling priorities, by executing as NT Authority

I've never heard anything regarding executing code in privileged security levels changing the hardware's behavior (such as changing how the branch predictor units work), to anyone who has an even moderate understanding of the Windows NT system architecture this seems incredibly far-fetched.

I wonder if PR was told "quick, think of some niche thing that sounds geeky enough, the suckers will buy the excuse wholesale!" and they came up with that!

 

[Chrispy_]

SSD didnt become "mainstream" until much later into Win7 lifecycle

We have different definitions of mainstream, I think.

I had an Intel x25-M 80GB before I moved from XP to W7, and remember testing W7 on an original pre-Sandforce OCZ Agility 128GB SATA2 SSD before committing to W7. Mainstream for me means "available to purchase by regular folk in regular stores", rather than "enterprise kit that consumer resellers don't stock". These weren't special purchases, I just handed over about £400 for a drive to my regular online retailer each time.

A 4080Super is eye-wateringly expensive, but it's mainstream because anyone can walk into a store and pick it off the shelf, or log on to one of dozens of (inter)national retailers and buy five of them without any hassle. An Nvidia H100 or L40 accelerator is not mainstream because it's not something you can buy. You have to be a server manufacturer to procure them as an Nvidia-vetted OEM partner for resale in your servers offered for sale to corporate customers.

If by mainstream to mean "popular" then it's going to be way behind the curve of a typical purchase today - the 5-year-old GTX1650 has only just lost it's #1 spot on the Steam hardware survey this year, replaced by a 4-year-old, discontinued GPU, and I think and the 8-year-old 1060 is still in the top-10 most popular GPUs today....

 

[chrcoluk]

Something that interest you guys, is that the admin account even with UAC elevlation is not the top level, e.g. if you run regedit, some parts of the registry are read only, and some dont even have read access.

There is the SYSTEM level, I will paste the output, the easiest way to elevate to that is using a tool called PowerRun.

C:\WINDOWS\System32>whoami
nt authority\system

C:\WINDOWS\System32>whoami /priv

PRIVILEGES INFORMATION
----------------------

Privilege Name Description State
========================================= ================================================================== ========
SeAssignPrimaryTokenPrivilege Replace a process level token Disabled
SeLockMemoryPrivilege Lock pages in memory Enabled
SeIncreaseQuotaPrivilege Adjust memory quotas for a process Disabled
SeTcbPrivilege Act as part of the operating system Enabled
SeSecurityPrivilege Manage auditing and security log Disabled
SeTakeOwnershipPrivilege Take ownership of files or other objects Disabled
SeLoadDriverPrivilege Load and unload device drivers Disabled
SeSystemProfilePrivilege Profile system performance Enabled
SeSystemtimePrivilege Change the system time Disabled
SeProfileSingleProcessPrivilege Profile single process Enabled
SeIncreaseBasePriorityPrivilege Increase scheduling priority Enabled
SeCreatePagefilePrivilege Create a pagefile Enabled
SeCreatePermanentPrivilege Create permanent shared objects Enabled
SeBackupPrivilege Back up files and directories Disabled
SeRestorePrivilege Restore files and directories Disabled
SeShutdownPrivilege Shut down the system Disabled
SeDebugPrivilege Debug programs Enabled
SeAuditPrivilege Generate security audits Enabled
SeSystemEnvironmentPrivilege Modify firmware environment values Disabled
SeChangeNotifyPrivilege Bypass traverse checking Enabled
SeUndockPrivilege Remove computer from docking station Disabled
SeManageVolumePrivilege Perform volume maintenance tasks Disabled
SeImpersonatePrivilege Impersonate a client after authentication Enabled
SeCreateGlobalPrivilege Create global objects Enabled
SeIncreaseWorkingSetPrivilege Increase a process working set Enabled
SeTimeZonePrivilege Change the time zone Enabled
SeCreateSymbolicLinkPrivilege Create symbolic links Enabled
SeDelegateSessionUserImpersonatePrivilege Obtain an impersonation token for another user in the same session Enabled

Now the effect of disabling UAC?

You already posted the permissions that are "after" UAC elevation.

It is like this without UAC elevation. Which if I remember right is not possible on the default hidden admin account, everything is auto elevated, or am I wrong on this?

F:\games\Warcraft III>whoami /priv

PRIVILEGES INFORMATION
----------------------

Privilege Name Description State
============================= ==================================== ========
SeAssignPrimaryTokenPrivilege Replace a process level token Disabled
SeLockMemoryPrivilege Lock pages in memory Disabled
SeShutdownPrivilege Shut down the system Disabled
SeChangeNotifyPrivilege Bypass traverse checking Enabled
SeUndockPrivilege Remove computer from docking station Disabled
SeIncreaseWorkingSetPrivilege Increase a process working set Disabled
SeTimeZonePrivilege Change the time zone Disabled

 

[Dr. Dro]

Something that interest you guys, is that the admin account even with UAC elevlation is not the top level, e.g. if you run regedit, some parts of the registry are read only, and some dont even have read access.

There is the SYSTEM level, I will paste the output, the easiest way to elevate to that is using a tool called PowerRun.



Now the effect of disabling UAC?

You already posted the permissions that are "after" UAC elevation.

It is like this without UAC elevation. Which if I remember right is not possible on the default hidden admin account, everything is auto elevated, or am I wrong on this?

Indeed. UAC can be enabled on the built-in administrator account, but this is optional and not really recommended as this account is supposed to stay disabled unless the system needs to be managed through it for whatever reason. If UAC is enabled, it behaves no different from any other user account with the usual "administrator" rights.

Running without UAC elevation will disable most permissions except those required for restricted user accounts to work, this is how it achieves its intended sandbox effect.

 

[R0H1T]

Something that interest you guys, is that the admin account even with UAC elevlation is not the top level, e.g. if you run regedit, some parts of the registry are read only, and some dont even have read access.

Because "Admin" on Windows is not the same as "Root" on linux/Mac or *nix local accounts. I'd argue the highest privileges are reserved for "trustedinstaller" but even that isn't 100% accurate & this has been an issue since at least win7 IIRC when it was first(?) introduced.

Check this for reference ~

Redirecting

 

[kondamin]

I wonder if PR was told "quick, think of some niche thing that sounds geeky enough, the suckers will buy the excuse wholesale!" and they came up with that!

not unlikely, that doesn’t change the fact that hardware unboxed got better results because he ran in the admin mode.

and I’m pretty certain the only reason amd is doing that is because it’s easier to clone a windows installation and get it up to date with all drivers without having to click yes dozens of times When it’s deployed over dozens of systems

 

[chrcoluk]

not unlikely, that doesn’t change the fact that hardware unboxed got better results because he ran in the admin mode.

and I’m pretty certain the only reason amd is doing that is because it’s easier to clone a windows installation and get it up to date with all drivers without having to click yes dozens of times When it’s deployed over dozens of systems

There is a better way to do that, if thats the only reason they are doing it.

UAC can be left enabled but without the prompts on the normal account, meaning everything is not auto elevated, things that dont ask for elevation will stay not elevated, whilst things that want elevation will be silently approved.

What they did is a big no no. Disabling the entire UAC system which the admin account defaults to.

 

[INFERNUS]

I think Windows 10 LTSC 21H2 has this enabled by default, the super admin mode or not I'm not sure. I installed LTSC back in 2018 and now running the current version 21H2 on my 5800X3D my PC is used for gaming.
Under my account name it says "account is disabled" and it's unchecked, I either did it when I first installed it or that's how LTSC is I do not remember To check just go here:
"Press the Windows Key + R and type in lusrmgr.msc. Click on the Users folder. Double-click on Administrator. Uncheck Account is disabled and click on OK." If that's the case then us LTSC owners have nothing to worry about in terms of performance, at least that's what I think, I can be wrong LOL.

 

[photonboy]

BAFFLING...
While I like AMD Ryzen, and did a deep dive into this new Ryzen 9000 performance issue, the problem boils down to one BAFFLING thing.

AMD didn't validate CPU performance on a normal Windows setup?
(they used "Admin" mode which is something a normal Windows Administrator (i.e. home user) doesn't actually have enabled)

How? How does that slip through the cracks? It's sort of like "validating" the shocks you designed on a flat race track and then somebody reports a problem when you hit bumps IN THE REAL WORLD.

 

[phints]

AMD is saying even Zen 3/4 will have a small improvement in 24H2. Looking forward to that update, Windows 11 is by far the best Microsoft OS yet, but certainly has room for improvement.

 

[Ruru]

By the way I would like to get 5600X3D in Europe

Any luck in ebay or does the shipping and customs make them worthless?

 

[Dragokar]

Any luck in ebay or does the shipping and customs make them worthless?

Shipping and customs mostly and the few europeans that got them for reviews and clicks demand stupid prices