AM4 and VRMs

[Frick]

Both of those situations were blown way out of proportion and most people never actually encountered them.

This is from The Olden Dayes, but didn't Bulldozer blow up some VRMs? I remember it being important at the time.

Just get the 5700X/3D w/e and toss it in the board. But just do a favor to whomever, put a fan straight on the VRM package area. They typically run hot with tower coolers and AIO. And it should be ok for a while. I see no point in buying a new board unless you're upgrading 9000 series.

Honestly I think I rather get a new board than a new CPU. I'm really running into some hinderence with storage, even with a SATA controller... But yeah, if I get the x3d I'll strap a fan to something.

 

[lexluthermiester]

This is from The Olden Dayes, but didn't Bulldozer blow up some VRMs? I remember it being important at the time.

Yeah AM3+ had some issues, but they were minor as well.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

This is from The Olden Dayes, but didn't Bulldozer blow up some VRMs? I remember it being important at the time.

I had Vishera -FX 8350 with a modest 4.5GHz overclock. It came with Total War: Warhammer for $100 iirc. Paired with a MSI Gaming 970 in a https://www.anandtech.com/show/4648/rosewill-thor-v2-the-god-of-cooling-and-silence/2
Getting air over the VRMs was not a problem. Burned up the board in a less than 3 weeks/60hrs of playing that game. Thermal pads started liquifying and soaked through the PCB to the underside. It might have been an okay pairing for someone not doing 8hr sessions of a CPU heavy game, but my going full sweaty killed it.

I can understand wanting a newer board. Should be some good deals for the holidays.

 

[Zach_01]

This is from The Olden Dayes, but didn't Bulldozer blow up some VRMs? I remember it being important at the time.



Honestly I think I rather get a new board than a new CPU. I'm really running into some hinderence with storage, even with a SATA controller... But yeah, if I get the x3d I'll strap a fan to something.

The B450M-HDV you have is the R4.0 version?
The R4.0 has no heatsink. And thats only for 65W TDP CPUs and lower. Entry level APUs and so...

The B450M-HDV that has a small (Alu) heatsink can do easily 105W TDP with some dedicated airflow on the VRM.

R4.0


...and the other

 

[Frick]

The B450M-HDV you have is the R4.0 version?
The R4.0 has no heatsink. And thats only for 65W TDP CPUs and lower. Entry level APUs and so...

The B450M-HDV that has a small (Alu) heatsink can do easily 105W TDP with some dedicated airflow on the VRM.

R4.0
View attachment 362770

...and the other
View attachment 362772

It's not the R4.0. I don't remember if it has a heatsink, but now that you mention it I think it does.

 

[DaemonForce]

Honestly I think I rather get a new board than a new CPU. I'm really running into some hinderence with storage, even with a SATA controller... But yeah, if I get the x3d I'll strap a fan to something.

Are you just out of controllers for storage or is something else going on? I run like nothing in my workstation. Single 240GB M.2 and single 120GB sata.

Everything else is Network drive and iSCSI.

My X570 TUF board has two M.2 slots and 8 sata but that doesn't mean I can just populate everything and it'll work.
It's not a problem for me but if you're the type to run LOTS of disks on a single system, you might run into problems if you want native M.2 RAID or just an additional M.2 populated.
Worst of all, there's no mention of this anywhere.

Yet if I start loading up too many of the wrong slots, there are missing drives. Doesn't mention anything in the chart either.

People buy the boards expecting the best, maybe a BIOS flash will fix whatever issues later, etc. Then you find out the details through dumb reddit posts where people are left scratching their head over literally all of this.

If you want to load up a bunch of drives, I would recommend you keep the local disk count minimal like I do.
Otherwise slump the least urgently needed volumes into a NAS or keep a 2nd PC on and have the drives properly networked.
Thankfully I only need to keep two HDDs in my eMachines and I just keep a sata ssd around for accessory storage.
At some point this problem will get gone for good but that isn't going to be today or without a HBA. Good luck.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

The B450M-HDV you have is the R4.0 version?
The R4.0 has no heatsink. And thats only for 65W TDP CPUs and lower. Entry level APUs and so...

The B450M-HDV that has a small (Alu) heatsink can do easily 105W TDP with some dedicated airflow on the VRM.

R4.0
View attachment 362770

...and the other
View attachment 362772

It's not about a tiny little aluminum heat sink or if the board can "handle" the cpu load wattage "easily".

It's the fact that Niko-Sem PK618BA are probably some of the cheapest lowest end VRMs you could purchase. These arent like IR3555 or something decent to work with.

Probably just lucky it has solid caps on it too. In a pinch and dead ass broke, can't even feed yourself, maybe. But lets face it. If you can afford internet every month to read this, you probably could scrounge money up for a better board. (just sayin).

My 2 cents bro.

 

[Speedyblupi]

The B450M-HDV that has a small (Alu) heatsink can do easily 105W TDP with some dedicated airflow on the VRM.

It would definitely be a lot better than the heatsinkless version, but I still wouldn't say "easily". The version with the heatsink can probably just about handle a 5700X3D without overheating and thermal throttling if it has direct airflow over the VRM, but it will still run hot under all-core load.

In your case, the 5800X3D is on the supported CPU list, as is the 5700X3D, so they will work just fine

Why? The board supports 105 W CPUs.

A CPU being on the support list means that the motherboard is able to boot with that CPU installed.
It does not mean that the VRM won't overheat or that the motherboard won't enforce a power limit that reduces the CPU's performance. The VRM on some Z390 motherboards overheats and thermal throttles with an i9-9900K, and even entry-level H310 motherboards list the i9-9900K as supported, even though their VRMs are obviously inferior to on any Z390 board.

 

[Frick]

Probably just lucky it has solid caps on it too. In a pinch and dead ass broke, can't even feed yourself, maybe. But lets face it. If you can afford internet every month to read this, you probably could scrounge money up for a better board. (just sayin).

My 2 cents bro.

The main thing is I honestly don't want to because it's a Project. The computer is carefully hidden under a desk and I'd have to crawl under there, probably redo all the cabling I've done while I'm at it, clear my workspaces from my other projects so I have somewhere to be while I'm doing it, and so on, and I don't fancy that kind of thing anymore. Plopping a CPU in is so much simpler. But I also really want a new board so v0v. We'll see how things shake how. Hopefully something dies, forcing my hand, but that probably won't happen anytime soon.

Are you just out of controllers for storage or is something else going on? I run like nothing in my workstation. Single 240GB M.2 and single 120GB sata.
View attachment 362779
Everything else is Network drive and iSCSI.
View attachment 362780

My X570 TUF board has two M.2 slots and 8 sata but that doesn't mean I can just populate everything and it'll work.
It's not a problem for me but if you're the type to run LOTS of disks on a single system, you might run into problems if you want native M.2 RAID or just an additional M.2 populated.
Worst of all, there's no mention of this anywhere.
View attachment 362782
View attachment 362783View attachment 362784

Yet if I start loading up too many of the wrong slots, there are missing drives. Doesn't mention anything in the chart either.
View attachment 362796

People buy the boards expecting the best, maybe a BIOS flash will fix whatever issues later, etc. Then you find out the details through dumb reddit posts where people are left scratching their head over literally all of this.
View attachment 362794

If you want to load up a bunch of drives, I would recommend you keep the local disk count minimal like I do.
Otherwise slump the least urgently needed volumes into a NAS or keep a 2nd PC on and have the drives properly networked.
Thankfully I only need to keep two HDDs in my eMachines and I just keep a sata ssd around for accessory storage.
At some point this problem will get gone for good but that isn't going to be today or without a HBA. Good luck.

Just running out of ports (two optical drives!), plus I'd really like a second NVMe slot. I've thought about network storage for quite some time and I have the computers for it, but oh my word the hassle, not to mention I'd have to have a second computer up and running somewhere in my small apartment. Also yes I'm well aware of the silly storage sitation motherboards are in these days, and it's one reason why I'm annoyed with just the computer scene in general. "So I bought this motherboard with all these slots but which slots will work depend on your other hardware". I know the reasons behind it but it's also really stupid and annoying.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

The main thing is I honestly don't want to because it's a Project. The computer is carefully hidden under a desk and I'd have to crawl under there, probably redo all the cabling I've done while I'm at it, clear my workspaces from my other projects so I have somewhere to be while I'm doing it, and so on, and I don't fancy that kind of thing anymore. Plopping a CPU in is so much simpler. But I also really want a new board so v0v. We'll see how things shake how. Hopefully something dies, forcing my hand, but that probably won't happen anytime soon.


Just running out of ports (two optical drives!), plus I'd really like a second NVMe slot. I've thought about network storage for quite some time and I have the computers for it, but oh my word the hassle, not to mention I'd have to have a second computer up and running somewhere in my small apartment. Also yes I'm well aware of the silly storage sitation motherboards are in these days, and it's one reason why I'm annoyed with just the computer scene in general. "So I bought this motherboard with all these slots but which slots will work depend on your other hardware". I know the reasons behind it but it's also really stupid and annoying.

I understand. I'm not old old, but not young anymore either lol.

OK, so myself in your shoes..... Looking at a new platform period. Time for DDR5 and modern computing. B450 is very 2017/2018 stuff. DDR4 is finally EOL.

 

[Zach_01]

It's not about a tiny little aluminum heat sink or if the board can "handle" the cpu load wattage "easily".

It's the fact that Niko-Sem PK618BA are probably some of the cheapest lowest end VRMs you could purchase. These arent like IR3555 or something decent to work with.

Of course not... I never said that the tiny heatsink makes all the difference.
It is a way to tell them apart.
Simple

About 30 posts back in this thread I posted a screenshot that no one took 2 min to look at it apparently.

There is a new below (and slightly different)

Its not only that the R4.0 has different modules, it has fewer also on the low side



Here is Variant 1 against R4.0

It would definitely be a lot better than the heatsinkless version, but I still wouldn't say "easily". The version with the heatsink can probably just about handle a 5700X3D without overheating and thermal throttling if it has direct airflow over the VRM, but it will still run hot under all-core load.

I could take this as cherry picking word out of context, because I said "easily with dedicated airflow" (= dedicated fan on VRM heatsink)
...but I'm not. Just lack of clarification on my part.

A CPU being on the support list means that the motherboard is able to boot with that CPU installed.
It does not mean that the VRM won't overheat or that the motherboard won't enforce a power limit that reduces the CPU's performance. The VRM on some Z390 motherboards overheats and thermal throttles with an i9-9900K, and even entry-level H310 motherboards list the i9-9900K as supported, even though their VRMs are obviously inferior to on any Z390 board.

Agree on that^^

Vendors and manufacturers always present their products on higher capability that are really are.
Not saying lies per say, but not telling all truth either.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Of course not... I never said that the tiny heatsink makes all the difference.
It is a way to tell them apart.
Simple

About 30 posts back in this thread I posted a screenshot that no one took 2 min to look at it apparently.

There is a new below (and slightly different)

Its not only that the R4.0 has different modules, it has fewer also on the low side

View attachment 362806

Here is Variant 1 against R4.0

View attachment 362808


I could take this as cherry picking word out of context, because I said "easily with dedicated airflow" (= dedicated fan on VRM heatsink)
...but I'm not. Just lack of clarification on my part.


Agree on that^^

Vendors and manufacturers always present their products on higher capability that are really are.
Not saying lies per say, but not telling all truth either.

Of course the little heat sink helps. It creates additional surface area.....

If it's not truth, then it's lies. how could it be any other way? Ooops forgot the information is not the same as incorrect information. Either way, the CPU is worth 3 to 4x a 50$ motherboard. Used in fact.

Good eye on the different revisions though. I personally try and stay away from boards with multiple revisions (like x4 of em) because that usually means the first 3 revisions has defects (multiple likely). Like the Old Sabortooth motherboards. Or Crosshair IV rev 1 with the shitting NB heatsink contact issue. Paint this board green and call it HP OEM garbage..... Just opinion is all.

 

[Zach_01]

Of course the little heat sink helps. It creates additional surface area.....

If it's not truth, then it's lies. how could it be any other way? Ooops forgot the information is not the same as incorrect information. Either way, the CPU is worth 3 to 4x a 50$ motherboard. Used in fact.

Good eye on the different revisions though. I personally try and stay away from boards with multiple revisions (like x4 of em) because that usually means the first 3 revisions has defects (multiple likely). Like the Old Sabortooth motherboards. Or Crosshair IV rev 1 with the shitting NB heatsink contact issue. Paint this board green and call it HP OEM garbage..... Just opinion is all.

Yeah...
My board is rev1.0 and there is rev1.1 and 1.2 also. Same look, same VRM.
Never looked into it on whats the difference.

 

[Speedyblupi]

I could take this as cherry picking word out of context, because I said "easily with dedicated airflow" (= dedicated fan on VRM heatsink)
...but I'm not. Just lack of clarification on my part.

I acknowledged the context you provided, and responded in that context. My contention was your use of the word "easily", which implies that there would be a lot of headroom for even more power delivery than what a 5700X3D would require if a fan was pointed at the heatsink; which I don't think is true.
If by "easily" you just meant that it was possible, and not that a B450M-HDV with a fan on its heatsink is an ideal situation, then I agree with you.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Yeah...
My board is rev1.0 and there is rev1.1 and 1.2 also. Same look, same VRM.
Never looked into it on whats the difference.

The revisions are not always dedicated to the power delivery system. Could be bad tracing layout to using different nic or sound chips. One might have some backlighting and so forth. Some perhaps to have a larger bios chip installed to cover all of AMDs cpu agesa codes.

 

[Frick]

OK, so myself in your shoes..... Looking at a new platform period. Time for DDR5 and modern computing. B450 is very 2017/2018 stuff. DDR4 is finally EOL.

Not yet. I don't have any problem with my performance really, the X3D stuff is more a want than a need. I'm at 4K so most games are GPU bound anyway, and the ones that aren't I basically only play in irregular bursts so performance isn't an issue really.

 

[Zach_01]

The revisions are not always dedicated to the power delivery system. Could be bad tracing layout to using different nic or sound chips. One might have some backlighting and so forth. Some perhaps to have a larger bios chip installed to cover all of AMDs cpu agesa codes.

Yes of course and I bet they fixed something but really
…I don’t want to know

And even if I wanted and also wanted to get the latest, it’s not easy to identify it on the market.
Sh1tty market product info…

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Yes of course and I bet they fixed something but really
…I don’t want to know

And even if I wanted and also wanted to get the latest, it’s not easy to identify it on the market.
Sh1tty market product info…

Not yet. I don't have any problem with my performance really, the X3D stuff is more a want than a need. I'm at 4K so most games are GPU bound anyway, and the ones that aren't I basically only play in irregular bursts so performance isn't an issue really.

Yeah, wants and needs lol. You'll have to make the choice. Get one slap it in. I don't see why not. My 2700X bundled with a B450M-A and it's not great, it just worked.

@Zach_01 I haven't spent much time looking at revisions either. I don't think it's something to really worry a great deal about. But seems mostly on lower end boards, less on mid range and even less revisions on top end stuff.

 

[Frick]

I'm just going to rant a bit here, about "upgrading". So yeah it doesn't feel great paying €100+ for a motherboard that's what, four years old at this point? But I was looking at newer generation stuff, Intel inlcuded, and motherboards with the same features (two M2 slots, ATX) are twice as much! And the Ryzen 7600 cost as much as a 5700X3D! The 9600X is as much as the 5800X3D! I guess that's just the new reality. YEAH NEW TECH AND IT'S 20% faster but it'll cost 20% more! What even is the point anymore to any of this? Ohhh I get to spend more money for more performance, does that mean i'll get more performance for the same money? Absolutely not. I'm tempted to buy a MSI B550-A Pro in protest (because you can use both M2 slots and all six SATA slots on that one), but I dunno. An ending would be nice.

 

[freeagent]

Next round buy a top end board and enjoy it for its lifecycle. The price sucks, but the quality gives warm and fuzzies.

 

[Frick]

Next round buy a top end board and enjoy it for its lifecycle. The price sucks, but the quality gives warm and fuzzies.

Had the top end been €200? Sure. But it's €400-500, so how about no.

 

[freeagent]

Had the top end been €200? Sure. But it's €400-500, so how about no.

Then you take your chances I suppose.

Gotta pay to play.

Its expensive here too.

 

[Bones]

Yeah AM3+ had some issues, but they were minor as well.

I could write a book on all that but one problem a certain make had was so bad their boards were suspended from being sold for a short time by Newegg.
Yeah - Lookin at you Gigabyte on that one.

Between the insane (At the time) 220W wattage spec for the FX-9370/9590 series chips, board makers like MSI and ASRock not making their boards stout enough (Esp MSI) to hold up in the VRM dept and all else, yeah - There were problems aplenty.

The only two makes that did hold up were Asus and Gigabyte with Gigabyte having some problems themselves in their OC'ing lineup.
Asus never really had problems with it in their OC'ing lineup (Sabertooth and Crosshair V/Crosshair V-Z boards) but not all boards period, made by them for AM3+ can handle those chips either.

It's the same basic thing for AM4 stuff.
Pay close attention to the VRM setup and if/how it's heatsinked because both matter when it comes down to it just like it did with AM3+ stuff.

 

[Frick]

Then you take your chances I suppose.

Gotta pay to play.

Its expensive here too.

High end boards don't save you from upgrading though, if anything it just makes the numbers worse. I could have bought a €300 board instead of the €70 I paid for the one I have now, and the only tangible difference would have been 1) 1 more NVMe slot (not worth €200) and best case two more SATA slots (I got a €20 controller card instead) and 2) maybe less VRM worries. The perf/cash ratio decreases with high end motherboards.

Also it's insane that "I don't want to spend the amount of money that not too long ago would have gotten me a decent entire computer on just a motherboard" is tantamount to "taking your chances".

 

[DAPUNISHER]

High end boards don't save you from upgrading though, if anything it just makes the numbers worse. I could have bought a €300 board instead of the €70 I paid for the one I have now, and the only tangible difference would have been 1) 1 more NVMe slot (not worth €200) and best case two more SATA slots (I got a €20 controller card instead) and 2) maybe less VRM worries. The perf/cash ratio decreases with high end motherboards.

Also it's insane that "I don't want to spend the amount of money that not too long ago would have gotten me a decent entire computer on just a motherboard" is tantamount to "taking your chances".

Yup. It's PCMR 1%er nonsense I.E. PC peasants being chastised for not spending stupid money. I have yet to spend $200 on a board and have had no issues on AM4/5. Even managed to get PCIe 5.0 X16.

Between the insane (At the time) 220W wattage spec for the FX-9370/9590 series chips, board makers like MSI and ASRock not making their boards stout enough (Esp MSI) to hold up in the VRM dept and all else, yeah - There were problems aplenty.

Having burned up a MSI 970 Gaming with an FX 8350, can confirm.