Looking for a a new low power trio for my home studio

[SL2]

Lets come back to this discussion after it releases and see who was right.

No.

I'm not saying you must be wrong in terms of performance or efficiency. It's more about suggesting a brand new platform.

Whatever the OP can save in idle power draw will easily be eaten up by the cost of a new-to-the-market-platform. No review can change that.

Nothing surprising with that, we all know you like to ignore cost 99 % of the time. And yes, the OP didn't really have a low budget, I know.

 

[dgianstefani]

Other point is, regardless of platform OP goes with, current gen will get cheaper in two weeks or so on release of next gen.

 

[SL2]

Other point is, regardless of platform OP goes with, current gen will get cheaper in two weeks or so on release of next gen.

That could be true, but given that Intel 12 has already been replaced by 13/14, the prices has come down already. The other issue is that 13/14 still has a bad rap (even if Intel really has fixed them), causing 12 to be the safe bet and not really a reason for lowering the prices further.

Nothing of what I said is a given or set in stone, but it just shows that predicting a potential price drop in this situation is not really as easy as it could have been.

With so few days left, it can't hurt to wait, I'll give you that.

 

[Fif23]

Interesting guys.
I had the Asus B760I in mind, which looks like a decent mini itx, coupled with a 12700 (which, you think I should wait a couple weeks for a 12700 final price drop before it finally sells out, correct?)

My server has 2X22TB Ultrastars and will never expand to a 4 drive, so as long ass there are two ports I am OK.
My mini itx case is so neat that I don't want to use an HDD caddy. Also rigged it up to fit 2x3.5" - It's beutiful.


I don't really have a limited budget for the mobo, I just want a great one with proper cooling and high-grade caps all around that can take a couple millions hours without swelling up. I use an external audio interface so no need for fancy audio as it will be disabled in bios anyway/

My current board is an H370 mini ITX asus, and it's pretty amazing!

 

[nomdeplume]

I had the Asus B760I in mind, which looks like a decent mini itx, coupled with a 12700 (which, you think I should wait a couple weeks for a 12700 price drop, correct?)

Make your own decision on when the correct time to buy is. Just trying to provide some insight you might need to move fast if/when a motivating price drop appears somewhere.

Asus is not the easiest to recommend brand this time around. If you were buying on reputation this is something you should definitely revisit.

 

[SL2]

Interesting guys.
I had the Asus B760I in mind, which looks like a decent mini itx, coupled with a 12700 (which, you think I should wait a couple weeks for a 12700 final price drop before it finally sells out, correct?)

My server has 2X22TB Ultrastars and will never expand to a 4 drive, so as long ass there are two ports I am OK.
My mini itx case is so neat that I don't want to use an HDD caddy. Also rigged it up to fit 2x3.5" - It's beutiful.

I don't really have a budget for the mobo, I just want a great one with proper cooling and high-grade caps all around that can take a couple millions hours without swelling up.

My current board is an H370 mini ITX asus, and it's pretty amazing!

ITX boards are always popular/scarce so price won't go down. Don't expect the 12700 to go down like I explained, and if so we're talking about <$30.

The 12700 cost more, go for the one with the lowest price, like the 12700KF (no graphics), or the 12700K, then lower the [W]. In the end it's not important tho (Unless you need vPro?).

The reviews for the Z variant of that board doesn't look stellar, I'd keep reading up on boards. That's the most important part, like pointed out before.

It uses the same cores as Lunar Lake, known for class leading efficiency,

Lunar is great here, but we don't know what will happen at desktop settings at load.

Or like Intel said, PL1 = PL2 = 250 W for Arrow presentation. We'll see next week.

Any CPU can have good efficiency given the right power draw limit.

Spoiler: Case in point

 

[nomdeplume]

Erased post I was composing to reply above.

Still seems relevant to note 14600K went on sale for $199 recently before rebounding back to $330. For same price as 12700K it might be worth considering if programs he uses are both memory intensive and optimized for DDR5 nowadays. Volatile marketplace could go sideways if CU release goes poorly, just saying.

 

[SL2]

Still seems relevant to note 14600K went on sale for $199 recently before rebounding back to $330. For same price as 12700K it might be worth considering if programs he uses are both memory intensive and optimized for DDR5 nowadays. Volatile marketplace could go sideways if CU release goes poorly, just saying.

I'd say the 12700K is more of a safe bet.

The average app performance difference is only 7 %, but the Raptor lake uncertainty is forever.

 

[Fif23]

Question: What is the drawback of getting a 12700 Engineering Sample (stamped confidential) from ebay? They are 99$ and it is the last change to grab one

Is it the exact same chip as the launch stepping?

worst case, 200$ aint that bad for such a nice chip. I'm happy I am now armed with this knowledge

 

[nomdeplume]

I'd say the 12700K is more of a safe bet.

The average app performance difference is only 7 %, but the Raptor lake uncertainty is forever.

Almost exactly the same physical construction as later versions excepting components that haven't made headlines. What is a safe bet is saying 14700K are outliers performing closer to i9 in programs.

If we are totally honest 12400 is the safe bet for longevity and lower temps with a good quality ITX mobo.

Question: What is the drawback of getting a 12700 Engineering Sample (stamped confidential) from ebay? They are 99$ and it is the last change to grab one

Is it the exact same chip as the launch chip?

Unknown. Thoroughly unknown differences at point of delivery or especially life it lived as cpu intended for robust testing procedures.

Better than average chances it differs from consumer model.

 

[SL2]

Is it the exact same chip as the launch stepping?

The problem is, no one can guarantee anything here, not even Intel lol.

Almost exactly the same physical construction as later versions excepting components that haven't made headlines.

The fact that they share a very similar design doesn't reflect in reported failed CPU's. Even laptop Raptors (which shouldn't have this problem according to Intel) and 14600K's have failed.

Even if I don't have any statistics here, and maybe it's partly FUD, why take such a risk for a machine that's supposed to last >5 years? For a 50 % performance bump, maybe. For 7 %, big no.

@Fif23 has yet to tell us if he ever does any CPU intensive work, or if it's mostly GPU work?

 

[nomdeplume]

@Fif23

The landscape has changed a fair amount, lots of worldwide events, since Coffee Lake. A fresh approach throwing out previously reliable ideas might be helpful in directing your research pathways.

At the very least take a brief moment to look at more run of the mill cpu, Intel and AMD. Enthusiast level interests are not being overly catered to currently, but these companies need to stay in business by providing something worth buying. Less expensive and more regular updates might be a strategy you consider in tune with resale value and flatlined desirability after retail. The market for 8700K suggests a use not readily met by newer offerings. Thinking on this a bit more broadly might impact your outlook.

The fact that they share a very similar design doesn't reflect in reported failed CPU's. Even laptop Raptors (which shouldn't have this problem according to Intel) and 14600K's have failed.

Fairly well established "built to fail" doesn't completely remove chance they can be tuned not to. The mental leap intended was they differ in firmware and other coding more than they do physically. Much depends on how the extended warranty is factored in.

 

[evernessince]

I'd have to agree with dgianstefani, new Intel processors are right around the corner and they are claiming to be significantly more power efficient, which is what OP wants. It's one of the biggest changes to Intel desktop processors in a long time and it's a mere week away from today.

Question: What is the drawback of getting a 12700 Engineering Sample (stamped confidential) from ebay? They are 99$ and it is the last change to grab one

Is it the exact same chip as the launch stepping?

worst case, 200$ aint that bad for such a nice chip. I'm happy I am now armed with this knowledge

No warranty, no guarantees as to the stability, performance, power consumption, ect.

Under load, AMD consumes considerably less power, but at idle, Intel often wins. For AV encoding, Intel is the clear performance winner; for gaming, AMD generally wins.

A power comparison chart here:
Ryzen vs Intel's idle power consumption (whole system) : r/Amd (reddit.com)

Some AV benchmarks here:
Intel Core i9-13900K - Media Encoding | TechPowerUp

The data you are using is 2 gens old and a lot has happened since then not just hardware wise but also software wise. In regards to encoding, the 9950X a bit better while the 7950X and 14900K are about equal:

Being a bit generous here to Intel as since the above chart was taken before Intel released the final fix to it's CPUs killing themselves and before windows scheduler fixes that boost Ryzen performance. We need another retest that won't happen until Intel drops it's next gen processors so all the more reason to wait.

Idle power consumption is a wash between the two:

Different publications have AMD or Intel better at idle power consumption but the differences are the result of the motherboards used. If you look at TPUs charts for the Ryzen 5000 series you can see the 5950X idled at 53w. This wasn't because the CPU was more efficient at idle than modern AMD CPUs, it was because 1) 5000 series only had single chipset motherboards 2) variation between motherboards.

 

[SL2]

Fairly well established "built to fail" doesn't completely remove chance they can be tuned not to. The mental leap intended was they differ in firmware and other coding more than they do physically. Much depends on how the extended warranty is factored in.

I also believe that the key difference is firmware rather than anything physical. I also know that Intel has delivered more than one fix, hence the uncertainty.

But still, 7 %.. is it really worth it?

I'd have to agree with dgianstefani, new Intel processors are right around the corner and they are claiming to be significantly more power efficient, which is what OP wants. It's one of the biggest changes to Intel desktop processors in a long time and it's a mere week away from today.

We're still talking about someone who's shopping around for second hand and ES/QS, ie looking for lower prices. A brand new platform will cost more, even in the long run, a ~10 W idle drop won't change that.

Mini-ITX 1700 boards are cheap unlike AM5.

 

[nomdeplume]

We're still talking about someone who's shopping around for second hand and ES/QS, ie looking for lower prices. A brand new platform will cost more, even in the long run, a ~10 W idle drop won't change that.

Sticker shock and deflation of consumer desirability. All the signs of running to check the most easily accessible outs are on display. Next is realizing extent of people/bots/corporate purchasing power that got there before them. A paradigm shift is required and even then you aren't changing what is on offer being outdated or...

Just to be clear. I'm agnostic on Core Ultra and have yet to touch or use a 12th - 14th gen Intel or their AMD counterparts. Internet punditry aside, it really seems the time has come to pursue the best option after H370.

 

[evernessince]

We're still talking about someone who's shopping around for second hand and ES/QS, ie looking for lower prices. A brand new platform will cost more, even in the long run, a ~10 W idle drop won't change that.

OP has stated they are looking for good value but hasn't given a budget number. They should provided one to clear up this point of contention.

I assume they aren't focusing on power consumption to save money, as you pointed out 10w idle is not worth anything. OP can again chime in here with their reasons for wanting low power consumption.

 

[Fif23]

My reasoning for power is due to lack of knowledge. I thought the TDP is the idle draw, and it scares ke because 130w is a lot. If the idle draw is all within 10w then who cares right!

 

[SL2]

I think Lunar and Arrow are both easy to misunderstand if taken out of its specific context.

For instance, Lunar is a low power champ, but on the other hand it does only have 8 PCIE lanes. In total. As mobile as it gets, short of putting it in a phone.

My reasoning for power is due to lack of knowledge. I thought the TDP is the idle draw, and it scares ke because 130w is a lot. If the idle draw is all within 10w then who cares right!

No, closer to max power draw, even if that's a simplification, with a lot of exceptions.

 

[AleXXX666]

Oh, a completely unrelated Intel/AMD bashing party no one asked for about a CPU type no one even brought up here, can I join?

Unlike Intel Economy™ cores, Zen4C has the same IPC as Zen4, only lower clocked, so not really any waste there.

You're talking about the Ryzen 8400F/G and 8500F/G. The 8600G and 8700F/G have no Zen4C cores.

I have had BAD RMA experience with 8500G. I bought it when it was cheaper significally than 7500F (I don't care much about iGPU) for cheapo AM5 build. And guess what? It couldn't boot RAM higher than 4800 or 5200 (don't remember already), with my RAM was 6000. BIOS was latest for that time. And for cherry on the cake, this piece of crap was freezing in Windows like hell, benching in CPUZ like 3-5 points in SC test!!! Thanks the store they have replaced it for me with 7500F as I asked and now I won't ever recommend 8000 series CPU to anyone!

Nope. I'd never recommend over a 1000EUR GPU for anyone.

edit: I also wouldn't recommend the Intel selfdesctructive CPUs for anyone, but 7700X is still a good buy if it's a) for a budget system or b) not for a gaming rig, due its efficiency and price/performance.

but, we have commercial market, when over 1000 EUR GPU is pretty OK like Nvidia Quadro or whatever they are now idc lol

 

[SL2]

Thanks the store they have replaced it for me with 7500F as I asked and now I won't ever recommend 8000 series CPU to anyone!

Brand new broken products is a thing. It happens. I bought a new phone, it crashed about once every hour, I returned it and got another one of the same model, it worked flawlessly for years.

I'm not trying to treat you like an amateur, but you did update BIOS and reset it? I don't think 8000's usually goes well with older 7000-only BIOS versions.

APU's are known for running with faster RAM than similar CPU's, although I don't know if that's true for every model out there.

From TPU's review, running DDR 6000.

 

[AleXXX666]

Brand new broken products is a thing. It happens. I bought a new phone, it crashed about once every hour, I returned it and got another one of the same model, it worked flawlessly for years.

I'm not trying to treat you like an amateur, but you did update BIOS and reset it? I don't think 8000's usually goes well with older 7000-only BIOS versions.

APU's are known for running with faster RAM than similar CPU's, although I don't know if that's true for every model out there.

From TPU's review, running DDR 6000.
View attachment 368033

well, as it was Gigabyte A620, I ran into some trouble updating bios, like "checksum is bad" (common "prank" for gb mbs last few yrs), but, as service center CONFIRMED cpu was faulty, I now have 7500F and even managed to update bios finally lmfao. There weren't CLEAR instructions on how to update bios without cpu bcuz damn mb is CHEAP. On "pricey" mbs they even highlight the usb port to use with "button-flash" feature lol...